Lets talk spring rates

[The G-Man]

As it sits, it looks as if I am pretty much destined for 3rd place in ST in my region this year.

Neuspeed Race springs and KYB AGX isn't cutting it. I need something with custom spring rates.

I was thinking 30% stiffer in the rear would be a good place to start, and something fairly soft in the front, but yet stiff at the same time.

So at this time lets say 600 in/lbs front and 780 in/lbs in rear.

Once I get these rates figured out, then I will have a shock custom valved to best match the rates, and extended top hats fabricated to still allow proper travel in the front.

[d112crzy]

God damn, that shit is stiff! Do you plan on making your car a track car only once you get your suspension? It sure as fuck won't be a comfortable ride with those rates.

What are the Nuespeed Race rates? I was thinking of doing 550 rears with 400 fronts on mine with custom valved bilsteins. As well as some removable limiters on the front.

Can you add a solid rear strut bar without moving you up a class? I think with some STIFF ass bars, you won't need such high spring rates.

[dohcb7]

why dont u just get coilovers? they are better than lowering springs in my opinion

[Flatline]

why dont u just get coilovers? they are better than lowering springs in my opinion

because he needs custom spring rates.

[mcdizzle]

why dont u just get coilovers? they are better than lowering springs in my opinion

because good ones (not f2, d2, tein, ksport) cost a lot of money.

custom valved bilsteins/konis matched with a good high spring rate lowering spring or ground control setup will be the best bet.

[The G-Man]

God damn, that shit is stiff! Do you plan on making your car a track car only once you get your suspension? It sure as fuck won't be a comfortable ride with those rates.

What are the Nuespeed Race rates? I was thinking of doing 550 rears with 400 fronts on mine with custom valved bilsteins. As well as some removable limiters on the front.

Can you add a solid rear strut bar without moving you up a class? I think with some STIFF ass bars, you won't need such high spring rates.
I can add, and will add a solid rear bar. But it can only tie the two strut mounts together. A friend of mine is going to help me fabricate solid front and rear bars.

Honestly, I wasn't sure where to start with rates for this car because there just isn't a whole lot of information out there from people auto crossing theirs. And for the foreseeable future, this is my only car.

And as for the Neuspeed rates, I can't really find any good info for them. But they are progressive as noted by the uneven coil spacing.
why dont u just get coilovers? they are better than lowering springs in my opinion
I am getting coil-over sleeves, from Ground Control. These sleeves use standard 2.5''? inner diameter springs, and are available in pretty much any spring rate you want.

But really, I will set my ride height once, and then corner-balance it. There is absolutely no need to adjust ride height often.

[Charliehstle209]

i was just researching my NexSS coilovers spring rate and cant find nothing other than,

"High Molecule Force Coil Springs - The coil springs in the NEX suspension is made from high molecule forced steel. After being tested by millions of times on our dyno, we found this spring construction to resist wear and tear, and sustain its efficiency and consistent spring rate. The handling and performance can match by the skill of each driver due to the high spring rate used in the NEX suspension"

No numbers...

when i had it aligned with a decent drop, it was very responsive and pretty stiff. During autox racing, it feels pretty solid. im afraid to go any lower...

i cant wait till i get this progress bar, upper and rear struts installed...

[mcdizzle]

I can add, and will add a solid rear bar. But it can only tie the two strut mounts together. A friend of mine is going to help me fabricate solid front and rear bars.

Honestly, I wasn't sure where to start with rates for this car because there just isn't a whole lot of information out there from people auto crossing theirs. And for the foreseeable future, this is my only car.

And as for the Neuspeed rates, I can't really find any good info for them. But they are progressive as noted by the uneven coil spacing.

I am getting coil-over sleeves, from Ground Control. These sleeves use standard 2.5''? inner diameter springs, and are available in pretty much any spring rate you want.

But really, I will set my ride height once, and then corner-balance it. There is absolutely no need to adjust ride height often.

i used to run 400f/300r on my car when i had koni/gcs. it was a good set up and i never stiffened the konis. but i DD'd the car as well. if i went back to GC's id prolly go somewhere like 550f/500r with specially valved konis to match them. stiff enough for racing but still bearable for street use as well.

[The G-Man]

i used to run 400f/300r on my car when i had koni/gcs. it was a good set up and i never stiffened the konis. but i DD'd the car as well. if i went back to GC's id prolly go somewhere like 550f/500r with specially valved konis to match them. stiff enough for racing but still bearable for street use as well.

Why softer out back?

[TheNextEpisode]

Why softer out back?

x2

[d112crzy]

Because most of the weight on our cars is in the front and thats where we get a lot of our body roll from(sloppy front end). You usually only want stiffer rears to prevent squatting in drag racing situations.

[The G-Man]

Because most of the weight on our cars is in the front and thats where we get a lot of our body roll from(sloppy front end). You usually only want stiffer rears to prevent squatting in drag racing situations.

True, but you also want to prevent squatting in a road racing situation as well.

[mcdizzle]

well i go softer out back because thats what ive always read was recommended. a good anti-sway bar/solid tower brace bar like an esp will help out greatly in the rear as well. id prolly go even all around at 550f/r but im not 100% positive.

im probably just going to be getting a neuspeed super cup kit on my car and calling it quits for suspension, as id rather have a better starting point for road racing (s2000 or c5 corvette).

[93F22A6]

As it sits, it looks as if I am pretty much destined for 3rd place in ST in my region this year.

Neuspeed Race springs and KYB AGX isn't cutting it. I need something with custom spring rates.

I was thinking 30% stiffer in the rear would be a good place to start, and something fairly soft in the front, but yet stiff at the same time.

So at this time lets say 600 in/lbs front and 780 in/lbs in rear.

Once I get these rates figured out, then I will have a shock custom valved to best match the rates, and extended top hats fabricated to still allow proper travel in the front.

That sounds extremly stiff for a CB. Hell the race car I work on has 350+ in the front and 400+ in the rear. It's circle track car but still, it 3150 pounds a little bit heavier than a CB but of corse a completely different car. I would scale the car first and go from there.

[mcdizzle]

That sounds extremly stiff for a CB. Hell the race car I work on has 350+ in the front and 400+ in the rear. It's circle track car but still, it 3150 pounds a little bit heavier than a CB but of corse a completely different car. I would scale the car first and go from there.

weight of the car really doesnt mean a whole lot when it comes to the spring rates, a guy locally had a miata that was running 600lb f/r on it for autocross. the thing road like it was on fence posts but it handle like it was on rails so yah.

[93F22A6]

weight of the car really doesnt mean a whole lot when it comes to the spring rates, a guy locally had a miata that was running 600lb f/r on it for autocross. the thing road like it was on fence posts but it handle like it was on rails so yah.

If your trying to get the perfect 50/50 weight distribution uh yes it does. Scaling the car tells you how much weight is on each tire.

[mcdizzle]

If your trying to get the perfect 50/50 weight distribution uh yes it does. Scaling the car tells you how much weight is on each tire.

oooh ok, now i see what your saying. i thought you were refering to just getting an overall weight of the car.

isnt this what corner balancing is for? also that is kinda why i ran lower rates in the rear of my car.

[93F22A6]

oooh ok, now i see what your saying. i thought you were refering to just getting an overall weight of the car.

isnt this what corner balancing is for? also that is kinda why i ran lower rates in the rear of my car.

Corner balancing? Can you explain this to me, not sure what it is. True lower spring rates in the rear will put more weight to the rear of the car, to low and you'll prob sag and and poor handling.

[mcdizzle]

i cant describe it, but i think this website does a good job
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/cornerbalance.htm

[93F22A6]

i cant describe it, but i think this website does a good job
http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/cornerbalance.htm

I just breifly skimed it but thats basically what I was saying. Or at least same goals. Except in circle track we have a different weight distrubution, can't remember what it is though. I know I hate having to go and put rounds in and out of the car though, get time concuming. Espcially when reggie, our driver, and my shop teacher change their minds :lol:. If you want to know how to set up a car go find some of the old guys who have been racing for a while and just listen. I've learned alot over just the past few months.

[TheNextEpisode]

The idea with higher rear spring rates is to get the rear more skiddish. Skiddish tails yield yaw change, and yaw change is welcomed in any auto-x.

There aren't too many people that would recommend stiffer fronts than rears when autocrossing. Stiffer fronts will almost always lead to understeer, and understeer has no business on the auto-x circuit.


There are CRX guys that run 600+/900+. G-man's numbers don't seem unrealistic to me.

[The G-Man]

The idea with higher rear spring rates is to get the rear more skiddish. Skiddish tails yield yaw change, and yaw change is welcomed in any auto-x.

There aren't too many people that would recommend stiffer fronts than rears when autocrossing. Stiffer fronts will almost always lead to understeer, and understeer has no business on the auto-x circuit.


There are CRX guys that run 600+/900+. G-man's numbers don't seem unrealistic to me.

Thank you. Just as you posted that, I realized that that is key to success, rotation of the rear. Pretty much everybody runs higher tire pressure in the rear, so higher spring rate would be warranted as well.

[Charliehstle209]

agreed.

[Ronald_Type-R]

So my guess is that your car will be a dedicated auto-x car and no longer a DD?

I'm currently running Megan Racing coilovers with 14kg/mm up front and custom 8kg/mm rear as opposed to 6kg/mm..I believe that translates to 780lbs/in up front and 450lbs/in rear? Anyways, along with that I also have Progress RSB, rear X-brace, and front 3-point brace, matched with stock DX front sway bar (24mm is it? or 25mm?) Camber is -3.0 up front, -1.0 rear..

Cornering wise, it's great, no doubt about it..In all honesty, I haven't experienced understeer in the past 3 years I think, ever since I upgraded the suspension, added RSB and ran my current camber setup....During hard cornering (low to mid speed) I can definitely feel the rear tires losing traction during exit to keep up with the fronts...Oh for tire pressure, in summer time I usually run 40psi up front and 34psi rear..

However, when it comes to stability under high speed, as well as high speed braking, I find the rear to be somewhat unstable..When I first installed the coilovers, out of 32 dials (32 being the stiffest), I set the front at 26 and the rear at 20...Needless to say, my rear-end would literally float on the highway, so much that it scared the poop out of me...After getting used to it, my final setting came to 28-30 front (depending on wheel/tire combo), and 16 for rear...Even at 16 the rear would still kick out on me...So far I almost died 3 times from my car oversteering during long fast corners...Had I not countersteer I wouldn't be typing this right now lol :lol:

But anyways, what I'm trying to say is that, while stiff rear suspension might be good for auto-crossing, you might also want to consider normal road conditions, even more so when it rains...Normal streets aren't exactly all made of slow and tight turns like auto-x courses...To me personally, 8K for rear seems to be plenty stiff..My rear end barely squats, and I can't even set the damper past 16 or I might just die while going 180km/h on the highway :lol: I can't imagine what it'd be like if I'm running an even higher spring rate in the rear, let alone stiffer than the fronts!!

Again, just some food for thoughts...But if your car is no longer a DD and simply just a dedicated auto-x car, then forget everything I just said!! :lol:

I will be widening my stance by 50mm all around in a few weeks time, as well as replacing all bushings with spherical bearings..I'll also be running -2.5 camber up front and -1.5 rear..After that's done I will be re-tuning the suspension again...I'm hoping that this time I will be able to turn up the rear damper without the fear of losing control...I'm VERY tempted to run 16K up front though :evil:

Ronald

[trah]

neuspeed spring rates (got them from Mr. Nueman himself)

race - 485f 300r

sport - 260f 165r

I am currently using both of these. the race springs up front (485lbs) and then the sport rears (165lbs). I choose comfort lol. I don't do much auto x or anykind of racing in this car just a nice dd. My celica is for that lol. Whitelines FTW.

anyways back to your post. if your getting 600f 800r thats PUSHING LIMITS OF DD. those are close to track only rates. but then your have to consider your ride quality which then you have to look at the shock valving. And if your looking into springs go with hypercoil. my friend have them on his lude.

[NAiL05]

A little more in the back never hurt anyone =D. Get you a nice RSB also that will stiffen the rear for sure and you will have quite a bit of oversteer. Its a nice setup if you understeer. If you go to much it becomes a burden. Those spring rates really dont sound that bad. What are you using for dampening?

[The G-Man]

neuspeed spring rates (got them from Mr. Nueman himself)

race - 485f 300r

sport - 260f 165r

I am currently using both of these. the race springs up front (485lbs) and then the sport rears (165lbs). I choose comfort lol. I don't do much auto x or anykind of racing in this car just a nice dd. My celica is for that lol. Whitelines FTW.

anyways back to your post. if your getting 600f 800r thats PUSHING LIMITS OF DD. those are close to track only rates. but then your have to consider your ride quality which then you have to look at the shock valving. And if your looking into springs go with hypercoil. my friend have them on his lude.
If Neuspeed Race springs are in fact 485f 300r, then I definitely want 500f and maybe 750r. Yes, for the foreseeable future this car will be driven daily, just not on the tires I race on.
Springs, I am going to go with Ground Control coilovers which use stock Eibach race springs
A little more in the back never hurt anyone =D. Get you a nice RSB also that will stiffen the rear for sure and you will have quite a bit of oversteer. Its a nice setup if you understeer. If you go to much it becomes a burden. Those spring rates really dont sound that bad. What are you using for dampening?

I already have a progress rear sway bar and the benefits are awesome.

Once I get the rates figured out I am going to have a set of Bilsteins custom valved to match the rates.

[d112crzy]

biter

[NAiL05]

Once I get the rates figured out I am going to have a set of Bilsteins custom valved to match the rates.

Sounds like a plan man. Finally someone doing it right instead of just throwing a set of coils on and thinkin its the greatest thing haha.

[The G-Man]

biter

What? Provide a meaningful comment or I will delete this. :tu:

[Blk EX Coupe]

Sounds like a plan man. Finally someone doing it right instead of just throwing a set of coils on and thinkin its the greatest thing haha.You mean generic coilovers aren't the greatest things in the world? :shocked:


I'm just curious why you would want 500f 750r? that is a pretty large gap in between the two. Most of the track cars I know or work in normally run a 100-150 gap, but then again none of them are cb7.

[d112crzy]

What? Provide a meaningful comment or I will delete this. :tu:

Biter aka copy cat. I told you about the setup I wanted last week, and now all the sudden you want bilsteins and custom spring rates :rolleyes:




lol, just giving you shit puta.

[mndude07]

I've been thinking about a ground control/koni yellow setup with custom rates for awhile as well.

The Neuspeed race springs are in fact 485F and 300R, as I called Neuspeed direct and asked.

I wonder why the rear is so much softer when a stiffer rear eliminates more understeer on the cb7.

[The G-Man]

Biter aka copy cat. I told you about the setup I wanted last week, and now all the sudden you want bilsteins and custom spring rates :rolleyes:




lol, just giving you shit puta.

Bitch please, I have been thinking about Bilsteins for a while. Mainly because they gots a big shop 30 minutes from my house.

[Blk EX Coupe]

I wonder why the rear is so much softer when a stiffer rear eliminates more understeer on the cb7.Because most cars understeer from the factory, and to avoid liability the aftermarket manufactures generally make the rear softer, so it is similar to oem.

[gloryaccordy]

Those are some crazy rates man. What kind of chassis reenforcement do you have?

[The G-Man]

Those are some crazy rates man. What kind of chassis reenforcement do you have?

Just a front strut bar right now. I will add a rear one before I get these springs.

Are you implying that the chassis cannot handle these without a roll-cage?

[TheNextEpisode]

Springs, I am going to go with Ground Control coilovers which use stock Eibach race springs

Once I get the rates figured out I am going to have a set of Bilsteins custom valved to match the rates.

Very nice.
I would think strut/sway bars should be a good start. Maybe down the road you could think about a trunk brace of some sort, but full on roll cages get pretty expensive.

[The G-Man]

Very nice.
I would think strut/sway bars should be a good start. Maybe down the road you could think about a trunk brace of some sort, but full on roll cages get pretty expensive.

Trunk brace is not an option, it would be illegal in my class. Roll-cages and roll bars however are not, and are actually encouraged by SCCA.

[gloryaccordy]

Just a front strut bar right now. I will add a rear one before I get these springs.

Are you implying that the chassis cannot handle these without a roll-cage?
Naw wasn't saying that at all. But with those rates on a DD you need the chassis to be as stiff as you can get it. What about a sub frame chassis brace?

[The G-Man]

Naw wasn't saying that at all. But with those rates on a DD you need the chassis to be as stiff as you can get it. What about a sub frame chassis brace?

That little tie-bar that everyone says is shit?

I am sure I can find little ways of stiffening things up. But, the strut tower braces will be made of some heavy shit, I can assure you that.

[NAiL05]

You mean generic coilovers aren't the greatest things in the world? :shocked:


I'm just curious why you would want 500f 750r? that is a pretty large gap in between the two. Most of the track cars I know or work in normally run a 100-150 gap, but then again none of them are cb7.

Off the shelf ones...such as TEin which IMO is crap. You overpay what you get and its not that great. The big gap is an issue but it shouldnt be too bad if his car really needs it. I havent driven a cb with a progress RSB so I cant comment how much oversteer it gets but my car has some off throttle oversteer if I go into a turn too hot...found that out going through a light and thats from a heavy ass tl.

[Ronald_Type-R]

Tein is crap. Period. They're overpriced, and so not worth the money. But the others I find pretty good for off-the-shelf coilovers. I remember when D2 first came out, it outperformed Tein SS like there's no tomorrow...And after that out come the Megan Racing coilovers (N1 EX-V equivalent) and now BC Racing coilovers, both can be ordered with custom spring rates and they will do the custom shock valving according to those custom spring rates...Monotube shocks (44mm and 46mm), pillowball tops, great adjustability, affordable for true coilovers..Can't complain!!

As for Progress RSB..Like I said, haven't experienced understeer ever since I installed it on my car!

Anyways, G-Man, for the front spring rates, do you want them to be soft? Because I feel that my 14K (780lbs/in) front springs are still a bit too soft for my driving...I'm thinking that 16K front and 10K rear will be ideal, but maybe it's a different story when it comes to auto-crossing?

Ronald

[gloryaccordy]

That little tie-bar that everyone says is shit?

I am sure I can find little ways of stiffening things up. But, the strut tower braces will be made of some heavy shit, I can assure you that.
Naw

Sub frame

http://jimsgarage.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/dscn3727s.jpg

They go a long way in stiffening shit up... I'm gonna get a set made on my next car

[trah]

Naw

Sub frame

http://jimsgarage.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/dscn3727s.jpg

They go a long way in stiffening shit up... I'm gonna get a set made on my next car

i've seen one of those on a friends miata @ a scca event in texas. I mean it outperformed out all the miatas without the underbody subframe/brace. either you do it yourself or buy it either way its going to be pretty expensive.

[NAiL05]

Spot Weld the chassis. Takes quite a bit of time though.

[gloryaccordy]

i've seen one of those on a friends miata @ a scca event in texas. I mean it outperformed out all the miatas without the underbody subframe/brace. either you do it yourself or buy it either way its going to be pretty expensive.
U don't have to get one that's that elaborate... I'm thinkin of gettin some steel rods just welded up, even that would make a big difference

[The G-Man]

Tein is crap. Period. They're overpriced, and so not worth the money. But the others I find pretty good for off-the-shelf coilovers. I remember when D2 first came out, it outperformed Tein SS like there's no tomorrow...And after that out come the Megan Racing coilovers (N1 EX-V equivalent) and now BC Racing coilovers, both can be ordered with custom spring rates and they will do the custom shock valving according to those custom spring rates...Monotube shocks (44mm and 46mm), pillowball tops, great adjustability, affordable for true coilovers..Can't complain!!

As for Progress RSB..Like I said, haven't experienced understeer ever since I installed it on my car!

Anyways, G-Man, for the front spring rates, do you want them to be soft? Because I feel that my 14K (780lbs/in) front springs are still a bit too soft for my driving...I'm thinking that 16K front and 10K rear will be ideal, but maybe it's a different story when it comes to auto-crossing?

Ronald
In autox you don't want everything as stiff as possible so there is no flex at all.

Naw

Sub frame

http://jimsgarage.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/dscn3727s.jpg

They go a long way in stiffening shit up... I'm gonna get a set made on my next car
I am pretty sure that would be illegal in my class. But nobody can see the underside anyways, haha.

[NAiL05]

Unless tech is really strict =D. You can make some cheap under braces for the car which shouldnt be hard. There are some points you can tie together. ranging from inside the cabin on the rear floorboard to places in the trunk. Under the car I would have to look at for parts to tie together.

[ikayto]

Tein is crap. Period. They're overpriced, and so not worth the money. But the others I find pretty good for off-the-shelf coilovers. I remember when D2 first came out, it outperformed Tein SS like there's no tomorrow...And after that out come the Megan Racing coilovers (N1 EX-V equivalent) and now BC Racing coilovers, both can be ordered with custom spring rates and they will do the custom shock valving according to those custom spring rates...Monotube shocks (44mm and 46mm), pillowball tops, great adjustability, affordable for true coilovers..Can't complain!!

As for Progress RSB..Like I said, haven't experienced understeer ever since I installed it on my car!

Anyways, G-Man, for the front spring rates, do you want them to be soft? Because I feel that my 14K (780lbs/in) front springs are still a bit too soft for my driving...I'm thinking that 16K front and 10K rear will be ideal, but maybe it's a different story when it comes to auto-crossing?

Ronald

yep I concur that Tein SS is not meant for track use, things are super soft! Max dampening on front and rear isnt as teeth clattering as my friend's koni and skunk2 set up. Only thing ss is good for is "comfort" but I believe you can get the same level with GC and Koni at half the price, but glad I got mine for super cheap otherwise I'd been angry hehe.

I read online to have the rears stiffer than the fronts for FWD. RWD guys have the front stiffer. Talking to some people having the rear stiffer aids in nose diving through turns, helps push the car through them I suppose.

[bcjammerx]

In autox you don't want everything as stiff as possible so there is no flex at all.


:confused: you don't want it stiff...but you want no flex?

[The G-Man]

:confused: you don't want it stiff...but you want no flex?

Re-read that sentence again, there is not but clause.

[wed3k]

:confused: you don't want it stiff...but you want no flex?

because if there is no flex, then there is no weight transfer. the tires would just break traction (especially on slicks or really hard sidewall tires). if there is no flex, you cannot feel the car roll, it will kinda just feel like a go-kart except it doesnt handle anywhere near a go kart because it is a uni-body.

in auto-x, you need to set the car up for the turn. majority of braking needs to be done before the turn especially on a fwd because the tire's contact can only handle so much gas/brake/turning at one time.

has G-man tried left foot braking? i want to try it in this month's auto-x. jump on the brakes before the turn and feather after the apex. i feel standard foot position has too much of a delay.

[NAiL05]

What you speak of is trail braking it works really nice but you have to learn to control that left foot. First time I did it I pressed just a bit too hard it wasnt fun but you eventually find a good median.

[bcjammerx]

ahhh...i 75% understand now...and I use the left foot for braking all the time...not like what you guys are talking :D

took practice , second time I tried it...damn near flew out the windshield HA HA...thanks seat belt...found out how good my brake are though :D

[The G-Man]

has G-man tried left foot braking? i want to try it in this month's auto-x. jump on the brakes before the turn and feather after the apex. i feel standard foot position has too much of a delay.

I have seen people left foot brake before, but they were in automatics and needed to keep the car from shifting.

[NAiL05]

It is mostly done on FWD vehicles from what I have seen. It helps keep the car in the powerband while going through the corner. Its like brake boosting your car for the turbo to spool up before you go at it...kind of the same concept.

[wed3k]

I have seen people left foot brake before, but they were in automatics and needed to keep the car from shifting.

i was under the influence one time and i was left foot braking in my DD. it's hard because the brake pedal is so damn skinny. felt like i was crushing my balls.

just got back from gokarting and im very confident with the left foot braking technique. just shaved 2 seconds off my lap time :)

[bcjammerx]

Re-read that sentence again, there is not but clause.

heh heh...you said but clause...heh heh

go-karts ftw!!!

[NAiL05]

Problem with karting is that you cant jam on the brake and accel at the same time or you can bind the chain. Not a fun thing. Shifter karts are a slightly different story.

[wed3k]

Problem with karting is that you cant jam on the brake and accel at the same time or you can bind the chain. Not a fun thing. Shifter karts are a slightly different story.

and why would you do that? you dont achieve anything. you really dont want any delay between the two. either off or on...

the spilit second for my foot to go from gas to brake, i feel, is too slow of a reaction and the during an auto-x you only have spilit seconds.

[The G-Man]

Problem with karting is that you cant jam on the brake and accel at the same time or you can bind the chain. Not a fun thing. Shifter karts are a slightly different story.

Most karts I have driven have ignition cut when you use the brakes.

[NAiL05]

Most karts I have driven have ignition cut when you use the brakes.

lol not mine. Shifter karts it doesnt matter as I recall since they have dual braking compared to the single brake on normal karts. But most of mine they still tell you not to do that either way it doesnt take much less brake = faster if you take the right line. It sucks the first few laps when the tires are cold though but after they grip damn its fun haha.

[JDMxDB8]

You should get some Koni Sport shocks and custom Ground-Control coilover sleeves. :tu:

[93F22A6]

You should get some Koni Sport shocks and custom Ground-Control coilover sleeves. :tu:

x2, plus they use Eibach springs, which I love. Hell my sportlines are awesome. Anyways I read that coner balancing thing again and its the same thing as cross in the circle track world. Anyways when/if you get the ground control setup let me know how it is, i want the same set up also. I know I dont auto x but I want to and plus i perfer handling over ride comfort any day.

[ThrakBarts]

relating to spring rates, I am running Omnipower Streets w/ a 10k front 8k rear spring rate. when running it at autox the car tends to three wheel it around turns, and it seems the rear end offers little aid in keeping traction. what do you guys think could stop this? I am planning on getting a solid front strut bar fabbed up, do you think that would help?

[gloryaccordy]

relating to spring rates, I am running Omnipower Streets w/ a 10k front 8k rear spring rate. when running it at autox the car tends to three wheel it around turns, and it seems the rear end offers little aid in keeping traction. what do you guys think could stop this? I am planning on getting a solid front strut bar fabbed up, do you think that would help?
What kind of sway do you have in the rear

Front sway might be the answer... but it will make for an interesting ride over bumps

[ThrakBarts]

What kind of sway do you have in the rear

Front sway might be the answer... but it will make for an interesting ride over bumps

progress rear sway.

why would riding over bumps be different with a bigger front sway?

[The G-Man]

progress rear sway.

why would riding over bumps be different with a bigger front sway?

No, don't change anything on the front. People remove those before making bigger.

3-wheeling is not the end of the world. In fact, in some ways it is good. I am just surprised you can do it in a CB7. But then again, your rates are higher than mine.

[Karl]

three wheeling is not bad, if the car feels too loose make a tire pressure adjustment or try a different line.

[Charliehstle209]

i just found the spring rates for NEX Suspension: (http://www.nex-suspension.ru/en/catalogue_suspension.htm)

i guess im running 674fr-337rr:wavey:

[Karl]

so we are running the same front spring, but my rears are ~3x stiffer

[904dr]

It's been a while since I read through this whole thread. But was there a tested auto-x setup thats proven to work well. It seems everyone has a different answer.

Currently I have 500lb fr and 300lb rear, tokico illumina shocks. It's not terrible, but I know it could be better. I chose those rates before I knew about making the rear stiffer for auto-x.

I already have koni yellows waiting to be put on, just wanted to switch up the spring rates. I was thinking 350lb front 600lb rear. Not sure yet.

Any input is appreciated.

[mndude07]

Blindly changing spring rates like that isn't a good way to do it. Start with an aftermarket set and go from there. They'll get you in the ballpark. Getting your ride frequency dialed in right takes alot of measurement, calculation, and iteration. 350F 600R is WAY too extreme, the back end will be all over the place, and plus your front end is too soft overall. You won't have the roll stiffness you need for autocross. Lifting the inside rear tire on a fwd car is a good thing too.

[904dr]

Blindly changing spring rates like that isn't a good way to do it. Start with an aftermarket set and go from there. They'll get you in the ballpark. Getting your ride frequency dialed in right takes alot of measurement, calculation, and iteration. 350F 600R is WAY too extreme, the back end will be all over the place, and plus your front end is too soft overall. You won't have the roll stiffness you need for autocross. Lifting the inside rear tire on a fwd car is a good thing too.


Not sure what you mean by start with a aftermarket set?

350f 600r was just a guess right now. Im basing that number off other setups i've read other autocrossers used to win. But they were on ef civics something like 450f 600r. Im trying to get my inner rear wheel to lift, thats why I threw that stiff 600lb rear rate out there. I figure the front sway bar will take care of the softer front spring rate. I already have a progress rear sway btw.


Thanks for the input. Any spring rate suggestions?

[mndude07]

Not sure what you mean by start with a aftermarket set?

350f 600r was just a guess right now. Im basing that number off other setups i've read other autocrossers used to win. But they were on ef civics something like 450f 600r. Im trying to get my inner rear wheel to lift, thats why I threw that stiff 600lb rear rate out there. I figure the front sway bar will take care of the softer front spring rate. I already have a progress rear sway btw.


Thanks for the input. Any spring rate suggestions?

What I mean by start with an aftermarket set is something like Neuspeed Race springs, for example. The better aftermarket companies have more racing experience than you and are going to provide you with spring with a rate that is in the ballpark already.

Depending on your front sway bar so heavily isn't a good idea either. Sway bars increase lateral load transfer. If you have a large sway bar in the front, you're transferring more load to the outside front tire. This is taking grip away from your inside front, and since its a fwd, its making you slower. The sway bars should be used to fine tune things, but not as a main dependent.

Also, just because civic guys use a certain combination of spring rates doesn't mean it will work for the accord. The motion ratios, sprung and unsprung masses, chassis, suspension geometry, etc are all different. The only way to really know is to measure. What you're after is a rear ride frequency slightly higher than then front. However, since fwd's are nose heavy, this is going to result in your spring rate still being higher in the front. People that run a higher rate in the rear are fooled into thinking the car handles better because of how the rear end rotates...but its really just hurting overall grip.

You want a soft front bar and stiff rear bar so that you have as equal as possible of loading on both drive wheels, and the stiff rear bar will help put load on the front inner tire because of diagonal weight transfer.

You really need to measure the car to know for sure what spring rates are good, and until then all you can do is guess. Being a fwd, you want as much forward weight distribution as possible within your class too. That will change up your spring rates as well. Remember, your rear will be proportionally stiffer than the front in terms of ride frequency, but as far as actual spring rate goes, the fronts will still be stiffer. Assuming your CB7 is fairly stock as far as weight placement goes, I would try something around 600lbs front, 400-450 rear...but again, you really need to measure the car to know for sure.

[Karl]

Back in the dd and autox days I used the ots gc rates of 400f 300r with both ST sway bars. It was a good compromise of comfort and performance. I started doing track days and then racing on this setup. I then ditched the st front bar and put the stocker back on. I then went with a cheap set of omni coilover, and their race rates of 560f 450r. Then I ditched the front bar completely. Then after some thought and imput from other racers I doubled my rear spring rate to 900. The car was able to accelerate better out of the turns as it limited weight transfer.

So If I was in your shoes I would keep the 500f and try something 600-700rear, and it will ride much harsher on the street but it wont kill you and it is only one set of new springs, try it out and see how the car handles. Make one change at a time so you can tell what that change is doing.

[Karl]

What I mean by start with an aftermarket set is something like Neuspeed Race springs, for example. The better aftermarket companies have more racing experience than you and are going to provide you with spring with a rate that is in the ballpark already.

blah, they are good for getting groceries, not for the track in most cases

Depending on your front sway bar so heavily isn't a good idea either. Sway bars increase lateral load transfer. If you have a large sway bar in the front, you're transferring more load to the outside front tire. This is taking grip away from your inside front, and since its a fwd, its making you slower. The sway bars should be used to fine tune things, but not as a main dependent.

very true, you do not want to transfer load from the inside front where there isnt much to begin with

Also, just because civic guys use a certain combination of spring rates doesn't mean it will work for the accord. The motion ratios, sprung and unsprung masses, chassis, suspension geometry, etc are all different. The only way to really know is to measure. What you're after is a rear ride frequency slightly higher than then front. However, since fwd's are nose heavy, this is going to result in your spring rate still being higher in the front. People that run a higher rate in the rear are fooled into thinking the car handles better because of how the rear end rotates...but its really just hurting overall grip.

so why don't you calculate some ride frequency for us and tell us what the magic number is? FWD is a compromise, you NEED to reduce rear grip to maintain neutral handling.

You want a soft front bar and stiff rear bar so that you have as equal as possible of loading on both drive wheels, and the stiff rear bar will help put load on the front inner tire because of diagonal weight transfer.

or no front bar

You really need to measure the car to know for sure what spring rates are good, and until then all you can do is guess. Being a fwd, you want as much forward weight distribution as possible within your class too. That will change up your spring rates as well. Remember, your rear will be proportionally stiffer than the front in terms of ride frequency, but as far as actual spring rate goes, the fronts will still be stiffer. Assuming your CB7 is fairly stock as far as weight placement goes, I would try something around 600lbs front, 400-450 rear...but again, you really need to measure the car to know for sure.
100% front axle weight couldn't hold a steady state turn without spinning, 50-50 on a fwd would hurt for forward bite, like most things it is a compromise


;)

[904dr]

I appreciate the educated advice Karl.

When I saw your sig I had to pm you, I assumed you must have some insight.

When I order new sleeves from gc for my koni's, i'll see if they have something around 700.

[mndude07]

;)

It depends on your track conditions what kind of spring rates are going to work best. Too stiff on a rough track and you'll be skating over bumps. Too soft and you don't have enough roll resistance.

Put me near a shop with corner scales and I will calculate it. There is no "magic number" though. What is that supposed to mean? It is going to be different for every car, especially if you have things like a motor swap, gutted trunk, lighweight wheels, etc. You're trying to compare apples to oranges by comparing spring rates on a civic to spring rates on an accord. You don't seem to have much of an understanding about ride frequency.

No front bar at all is again, a wild assumption. You have no idea what its doing compared to different sized sway bars. A smaller than stock diameter sway bar could be the best for your chassis, you have no idea because you haven't measured.

100% front axle weight is impossible. That was a ridiculous comment. You would have a 2-wheeled vehicle then. Let me re-word my statement: You want as much front biased weight distribution as possible in a FWD without throwing your center of gravity out in front of the contact patch.

Yes of course you are trading rear grip for front grip. I explained all that by saying a large rear bar is going to load up your inside front tire through diagonal weight distribution. Your overall grip is still going to be higher.

;)

[Karl]

It depends on your track conditions what kind of spring rates are going to work best. Too stiff on a rough track and you'll be skating over bumps. Too soft and you don't have enough roll resistance.

right, but I don't have different spring and shock packages for different tracks, I am a club racer. I dont know of anyone that makes track dependent changes at the club level either, most get the car dialed in and go. Yes it is a compromise.

Put me near a shop with corner scales and I will calculate it. There is no "magic number" though. What is that supposed to mean? It is going to be different for every car, especially if you have things like a motor swap, gutted trunk, lighweight wheels, etc. You're trying to compare apples to oranges by comparing spring rates on a civic to spring rates on an accord. You don't seem to have much of an understanding about ride frequency.

How are you measuring the wheel rate? Motion ratio and spring rate only? What about sway bars? What about bushing sticktion?

I never compared civic vs accord spring rates. I do use the information provided by many sources who have many different make and model cars with all kinds of engine and drive-train layout suspension design and weight distribution. I combine that information with how the car "feels" to come up with the hypothesis for the changes. Feel is something no math formula will tell you.

No front bar at all is again, a wild assumption. You have no idea what its doing compared to different sized sway bars. A smaller than stock diameter sway bar could be the best for your chassis, you have no idea because you haven't measured.

Right, because I have used a stock front sway bar, an after market front sway bar, and no front sway bar I am making a wild assumption about what it does.

100% front axle weight is impossible. That was a ridiculous comment. You would have a 2-wheeled vehicle then. Let me re-word my statement: You want as much front biased weight distribution as possible in a FWD without throwing your center of gravity out in front of the contact patch.

Still disagree unless you are talking about drag racing

Yes of course you are trading rear grip for front grip. I explained all that by saying a large rear bar is going to load up your inside front tire through diagonal weight distribution. Your overall grip is still going to be higher.

rear roll resistance helps front grip, it does not have to come from a sway bar
;)

cool

[mndude07]

cool

right, but I don't have different spring and shock packages for different tracks, I am a club racer. I dont know of anyone that makes track dependent changes at the club level either, most get the car dialed in and go. Yes it is a compromise.

Fair enough

How are you measuring the wheel rate? Motion ratio and spring rate only? What about sway bars? What about bushing sticktion?

Motion ratio and spring rate are all you really need. You can take the sway bar into the equation, but it isn't doing anything in ride, and also if your sway bar is so stiff that it is having an effect on your damping (and thus wheel rate) then you need a softer bar and stiffer springs anyway. As far as bushing sticktion and deflection goes, you would assume there are sphericals installed. There is no way to take such small deflections into account, only computer simulations and estimations...assuming solid joints is the most accurate way.

I never compared civic vs accord spring rates. I do use the information provided by many sources who have many different make and model cars with all kinds of engine and drive-train layout suspension design and weight distribution. I combine that information with how the car "feels" to come up with the hypothesis for the changes. Feel is something no math formula will tell you.

Alot of what "feels" good and what is actually happening isn't the same thing all the time. Data loggers are good for that...

Right, because I have used a stock front sway bar, an after market front sway bar, and no front sway bar I am making a wild assumption about what it does.

You said no front bar as if its "the best" or something. I'm only suggesting that something in between might be more ideal. Since there isn't an aftermarket bar smaller than stock that will bolt on, I can assume you haven't tried it.

Still disagree unless you are talking about drag racing

Why do you disagree? I would like reasons and hard facts. Lets talk about physics. Why would you want more weight to transfer off your drive wheels?

rear roll resistance helps front grip, it does not have to come from a sway bar

True, but the sway bar increases weight transfer across the two rear wheels, and without it..or too small of one, you won't be able to limit your roll angle to where it needs to be. And since you aren't transferring as much weight laterally in the rear, you aren't loading up that inside front.

[rxnasty]

and why would you do that? you dont achieve anything. you really dont want any delay between the two. either off or on...

the spilit second for my foot to go from gas to brake, i feel, is too slow of a reaction and the during an auto-x you only have spilit seconds.

if you watch and study any of the HOT MOTORING episodes. (pro jap racers testing and racing peoples cars that they have built) i see them left foot brake all the time in ff cars. even after they have rev matched (toe heel) i'm sure they do it for better lap times

[Jack93prj]

You can run GC's at over 500in/lbs with out revalving you koni's...well I think or would it be to spring for the koni's to handle?