h22 build up

[h22sparkle]

Im thinkin of the ultimate buildup to raise my stats on my h22. I am hoping for 200whp. BUt anyway here goes its not as crucial as 2point6's set-up but hey. okay

ALLMOTOR BUILD-UP
Skunk2 stage-2 cams
Skunk2 camgears
Skunk2 valvesprings and retainers
Type-S pistons
2Layer headgasket
SMSP 4-2-1 header with skidplate
Portmatch the intake manifold
0.035 milling of the head
APEXI VAFC


Is there anything unnecessary that I have in there that is considered not helpful in this set-up price range with setup with parts and labor is 3,500 so what do you think guys?:( opinions please

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by h22sparkle
Im thinkin of the ultimate buildup to raise my stats on my h22. I am hoping for 200whp. BUt anyway here goes its not as crucial as 2point6's set-up but hey. okay

ALLMOTOR BUILD-UP
Skunk2 stage-2 cams
Skunk2 camgears
Skunk2 valvesprings and retainers
Type-S pistons
2Layer headgasket
SMSP 4-2-1 header with skidplate
Portmatch the intake manifold
0.035 milling of the head
APEXI VAFC


Is there anything unnecessary that I have in there that is considered not helpful in this set-up price range with setup with parts and labor is 3,500 so what do you think guys?:( opinions please You want to run a higher compression piston, mill the head, and make the headgasket thinner to further increase compression?! Why? You know you won't be running on pump gas anymore. 11.5:1 is the safe limit for pump gas.

I don't know if you could get away with all that for $3500. Labor on all that is pretty expensive not to mention the parts you want aren't exactly cheap. If you going to dismantle the block for the pistons and not going to change the rods at least get the stock rods shotpeaned. It makes them stronger and shouldn't be much money.

[h22sparkle]

Bro thats with everything without the smsp header though its a sale goin on at the S&S speed shop theyve been around for like 25-30 years. I was wonderin how much extra to get em shot-peened and should i also get the custom smsp exhaust with downpipe or just leave my exhaust custom like it is now.

[h22sparkle]

i thought 12:1 was safe so how can i get the compression your talkin about 11:5:1 how can i get that ? please inform me I would like to know

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by h22sparkle
Bro thats with everything without the smsp header though its a sale goin on at the S&S speed shop theyve been around for like 25-30 years. I was wonderin how much extra to get em shot-peened and should i also get the custom smsp exhaust with downpipe or just leave my exhaust custom like it is now. The SMSP header is super damn expensive. You could probably get away with the $3500 if you didn't include the header. I thought you did though since you listed it in your list of parts along with everything else.

I don't know how much they would charge you to get them shotpeaned would be but it shouldn't be much. I mean Eagle H-Beams are going for $270-$280 shipped now a days it might even be worth your while to buy them also.

About the exhaust doesn't the SMSP header come with a downpipe? I don't know much about other then it's expensive and what I've read about it from 2.6. I know if I go NA which I may so I can focus on painting my car and doing the other cosmetics I might I would love to find a JUN or Mugen H22A header. They're awesome. I don't know how much better the SMSP one would be though.

What exhaust setup do you have now?

Originally posted by h22sparkle
i thought 12:1 was safe so how can i get the compression your talkin about 11:5:1 how can i get that ? please inform me I would like to know Maybe 12:1 would be ok if using 93 octane pump gas but since everything is always rated by Cali's max pump rating which is 91 octane 11.5:1 would be the safest compression to run without detonation. I don't even know of a USDM production car running such a high compression. The RSX Type-S runs 11:1. The JDM Type-R Integra runs 11.5:1 and they are on 101 RON octane rating.

I do have a friend that we put Type-R pistons in his RSX Type-S and he's running pump gas with no issues. I'm sure he's running close the pinging though.

Your plans for the Type-S pistons will raise your compression to the 11:1. Milling the head will raise your compression as well even 35 thousands might render you the 11.5:1 maybe less but 35 thousands although it doesn't seem like allot to an engine it is.

Removing a layer off the Stock head gasket is stupid. I wouldn't do that. Either leave it alone or go with an aftermarket higher compression head gasket.

I really don't think you should mill the head since it will affect your base timing. I would just swap pistons, rebuild the bottom end with all new bearings and etc., balance it, and with all your headwork 200whp should be a reality. You might actually make more with proper tuning.

[h22sparkle]

I like the sound of that how much does it cost to balance it. I am definitely taking note about this. I may change the rods just to make sure eagle rods hmmm. I will be runnin on 93 though i may get that smsp header and exhaust but the exhaust will come last.

[ZigenBallZ]

JUNK2 products = crap...at the very minimum, avoid the junk2 valvetrain at all costs...the valve springs & retainers...bleh. Don't be a label whore...

mill the head if you want... it's just looked down upon as ghetto by most people... but the same guys are sometimes running (what is considered by most as "ghetto") chipped P28 engine management...so IMO it leaves little room to talk.(not knocking chipped ECU's by any means...just making a point) everything has it's own little problems...

I would consider head milling DIY cr raising...:D

just make sure you know all the in's and out's of what you want to do...and realize that things come up in the middle of projects no matter how hard you try to avoid such things...


tuning is the key to happiness...

on pump gas...:D


:D

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
mill the head if you want... it's just looked down upon as ghetto by most people... but the same guys are sometimes running (what is considered by most as "ghetto") chipped P28 engine management...so IMO it leaves little room to talk. everything has it's own little problems...
I resent this comment as I'm running tuned P28 and packing the numbers to prove it :p

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by BustedLX
I resent this comment as I'm running tuned P28 and packing the numbers to prove it :p

I know man...but you replied before you saw my edit...

it IS considered ghetto though... and I say this with a chipped P06 sitting in my car...

and if you can pick up power by milling then what's the big deal? It's no less sophisticated than what people are doing with chipped ECU's...

[ZigenBallZ]

and just to put a little perspective on this thread.... full skunk2 valvetrain and TypeS pistons is hardly considered an "ultimate buildup"...with or without an Smsp header...

this thread has ghetto written all over it...:D

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
I know man...but you replied before you saw my edit...

it IS considered ghetto though...and if you can pick up power by milling then what's the big deal?
lol... Well why would you consider it ghetto? It's just a form of engine management.

Would you call a Hondata setup ghetto? They use the same platform... the P28. I've just eliminated the need for the Hondata and tuned the ECU myself. The fuel and igntion maps are changed to run the H22A. The ECU is just a machine running processes. It doesn't care what engine it's manageing it just cares about the input it's getting and the output it's sending to remain within it's preset perameters, The perameters I set in rom.

So it's really not ghetto, you've just choosen a different computer to run your engine rather then the one that came with it. So I've upgraded from a P1 to a PIII, how's that ghetto, lol.

Now why is milling the head on a Honda considered ghetto? Simple... Honda's like ours get their ignition timing off a cam located on the head. If you mill the head you make the distance from the block to the head shorter, meaning the timing belt will no longer fall in the exact number of teeth it should so you change your base timing. The maximum amount a head like ours can be milled is .005 any more then that and you've now altered base timing.

Now that's not ghetto?

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by BustedLX


Would you call a Hondata setup ghetto?


Now that's not ghetto?

Would I call Hondata ghetto? Yes I would...overpriced piggyback... Hondata is not considered ghetto by most because they don't know how easy it is to do the same thing yourself for much much much cheaper...

I personally do not agree with the word ghetto in reference to either mod...as I am running both.. I was just stating what most people would consider ghetto...and most people just tout what they have heard from others...without firsthand experience...

Milling isn't some mysterious science...it's fairly well understood how much you mill off affects timing...and how much you need to correct base timing... so if you're running a spiffy cam gear/s which you can easily use to compensate, then what's the problem? It seems no different than adjusting fuel/ign maps
to an altered set of parameters...

To use your arguement in context...Milling is just choosing a different head to deck height to run at to get a higher comp ratio...

Chipping the P28 in your case ( at least the last I heard about your specific setup) doesn't allow you to use the H22's IAB... so the chipped ECU in your case isn't an exact science either bro...obviously. Not mysterious..but not exact...

I don't really understand your arguement man...or maybe you just haven't made any good points in my eyes...I'm not being a dick... we're just arguing over other people's perceptions in all honesty...

but neither of these 2 mods is less or more ghetto than the other...just a DIY'ers way of getting the results they want without paying for overpriced products...

Can we at least agree on that last point?

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
Would I call Hondata ghetto? Yes I would...overpriced piggyback... Hondata is not considered ghetto by most because they don't know how easy it is to do the same thing yourself for much much much cheaper...

I personally do not agree with the word ghetto in reference to either mod...as I am running both.. I was just stating what most people would consider ghetto...and most people just tout what they have heard from others...without firsthand experience...

Milling isn't some mysterious science...it's fairly well understood how much you mill off affects timing...and how much you need to correct base timing... so if you're running a spiffy cam gear/s which you can easily use to compensate, then what's the problem? It seems no different than adjusting fuel/ign maps
to an altered set of parameters...

To use your arguement in context...Milling is just choosing a different deck height to run at to get a higher comp ratio...

Chipping the P28 in your case ( at least the last I heard about your specific setup) doesn't allow you to use the H22's IAB... so the chipped ECU in your case isn't an exact science either bro...obviously. Not mysterious..but not exact...

I don't really understand your arguement man...or maybe you just haven't made any good points in my eyes...I'm not being a dick... we're just arguing over other people's perceptions in all honesty...

but neither of these 2 mods is less or more ghetto than the other...just a DIY'ers way of getting the results they want without paying for overpriced products...

Can we at least agree on that last point?
lol, I'm not disagreeing with you, lol. I'm just tring to get the "chipped P28" off the ghetto list and tring to explain to you why the milling of the Honda head is considered ghetto.

Time for my rebutal... My P28 does not control my IAB's. It doesn't have that I/O but that doesn't make it ghetto. The H22A's manifold is so efficent that with tuning you actually make more low end power and torque without them then with them. So I've actually made an improvement, ghetto as it may be ;).

Personally I wouldn't mill my head, but that's me. I hadn't considered the cam gear option to compenstate for the belt position. That would fix it, all that would be left is using the tensioner to take up the slack of the now longer belt.

I do agree with you though, you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by BustedLX
lol, I'm not disagreeing with you, lol. I'm just tring to get the "chipped P28" off the ghetto list...

I do agree with you though, you've gotta do what you've gotta do.

Well...I was just trying to make you see the head milling light since you had already seen the modded ECU light....but I would also like to see the chipped ECU off the ghetto blacklist the same for milling... As I really think they are in effect just adjusting parameters to more closely meet a person's desired specs... not really for the noob to be messing with without understanding the pro's and cons and how to deal with them...but perfectly reasonable modifications...but sadly if it isn't some horrible dollar to hp gain ratio it's not as legit it seems...

I wasn't trying to knock your non-IAB chipped P28 setup at all... I DO understand why you did what you did with the IAB's...was just making a point...or attempting to anyways... I realize that my original comment might come off slightly offensive to a chippedP28 owner though...sorry man.

I just feel that if a mod makes power then it shouldn't be considered ghetto... There seems to be a general myth underlying modifications that if you don't have to spend several hundred $$$ on something then it's ghetto... but in reality it's the guys that overpayed for something saying this generally...or the ones that don;t fully understand all the possibilities......in my experience anyways...

I think these 2 mods are more for the true tuner rather than someone just paying a shop to do a buildup...it's for the handson guys...the guys that like to do their own fine tuning...and don't want to pay the 200% markup prices...

oh well.... at least we didn't start calling each other poopyheads...

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
I just feel that if a mod makes power then it shouldn't be considered ghetto...
Do you mean to tell me that the eBay IAT resistor mod is not ghetto because on some occasions it does make power? poopyhead...

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by BustedLX
Do you mean to tell me that the eBay IAT resistor mod is not ghetto because on some occasions it does make power? poopyhead...

trying to get me in the details eh? I would posit that IT IS ghetto...only because it is simply fooling the ECU into thinking it's colder out than it is...there is no real modification of anything other than a sensor input....but I really don't want to get into a discussion over IAT resistors... I refuse to put that much thought into it...cuz it's so ghetto...:D


but now that you mention it....that's another overpriced little mod that could be done tons cheaper by the DIYer...:D


sooper dooper poopyhead....beat that!!!

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
sooper dooper poopyhead....beat that!!!
<Cartmen Voice> All I'm saying is you're a little wuss that's all.

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by fizzbob7
if you mill the head, swap to the manual tensioner.........the auto tensioner is REALLY likely to fail on you (and ruin an engine) when you keep it and then mill the head..

and the H22 auto tensioner is crap anyways.... how many knowledgeable people swith to the H23 manual tensioner without any milling...just becuase they never want their valves to meet their pistons...

or so I 've heard...

gawd...here I am in an H22 thread....bleh....

[ZigenBallZ]

Originally posted by BustedLX
<Cartmen Voice> All I'm saying is you're a little wuss that's all.

well in that case....

screw you guys....I'm going home...:D

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by NoScreenName
well in that case....

screw you guys....I'm going home...:D
Sure does take you a long time to leave... damn those F22's are slow http://www.josebellas.com/images/mysmilies/chuckles.gif

[93accordEX]

I personally don't consider either ghetto, but I think why milling the head could possibly be viewed as such is because the goal is to get higher compression. and the supposed better way would be to get the block sleeved and get forged pistons. and if $ was no problem and I wanted 11.5:1 compression I would sleeve and get pistons, but I am actually considering doing the same thing, putting in type-s pistons and possibly milling the head since I don't have the $ for the alternative. now tuning is tuning now matter how you do it. If you can control fuel and timing maps thats cool with me. anyways as to the original question Im kinda liking crower cams, or custom reground. and yes I think you can definetly pull 200 out of that with tuning. smsp = 1200 but its gonna be like on back order forever. I think my name might actually be on the list for the next buy though. we'll see how I feel if that next buy ever comes around. I know it makes power, but would still like to see it dyno'd compared to stock.

[93accordEX]

damn this thread got like 10 more replies while I was typing that..

[BustedLX]

http://www.josebellas.com/images/mysmilies/hijacked.gif lol but seriously now... I agree with 93AccordEX. Crower's cams are looking mighty nice. For an NA setup I like 63422A, they look pretty sweet. If I could get them for a good price I'd buy them even knowing that they wouldn't work for my boost setup. They're proven power. :tu:

[HondaFan81]

IMO if you do research & bust ur ass to get the shit working right, it ain't ghetto. Ghetto is taking a Civic ECU and wiring it in by simply twisting wires by hand & starting up ur built up engine expecting it to work.

now that's ghetto & just plain stupid :laughy:

Originally posted by BustedLX
lol... Well why would you consider it ghetto? It's just a form of engine management.

Would you call a Hondata setup ghetto? They use the same platform... the P28. I've just eliminated the need for the Hondata and tuned the ECU myself. The fuel and igntion maps are changed to run the H22A. The ECU is just a machine running processes. It doesn't care what engine it's manageing it just cares about the input it's getting and the output it's sending to remain within it's preset perameters, The perameters I set in rom.

So it's really not ghetto, you've just choosen a different computer to run your engine rather then the one that came with it. So I've upgraded from a P1 to a PIII, how's that ghetto, lol.

Now why is milling the head on a Honda considered ghetto? Simple... Honda's like ours get their ignition timing off a cam located on the head. If you mill the head you make the distance from the block to the head shorter, meaning the timing belt will no longer fall in the exact number of teeth it should so you change your base timing. The maximum amount a head like ours can be milled is .005 any more then that and you've now altered base timing.

Now that's not ghetto?

[kentucky accord]

heres my 2 compression points.............

i run a milled head but am first to admit its more "ghetto" than a build w/ high compression pistons.

also, a chipped pXX is only ghetto when up against a full stand alone, IMO, ie., Autronic, AEM, Haltech, TEC3, etc.


so, on a side note, i see milled head, 14:1 pistons, and dual 48mm Weber DCOE carbs in my future......ECU's? HAAH! WE DONT NEED NO STINKIN" ECU's!!!!!

[hybrid90accord]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by h22sparkle


ALLMOTOR BUILD-UP
Skunk2 stage-2 cams
Skunk2 camgears
Skunk2 valvesprings and retainers
Type-S pistons
2Layer headgasket
SMSP 4-2-1 header with skidplate
Portmatch the intake manifold
0.035 milling of the head
APEXI VAFC
QUOTE]

For the price of the type S pistons you would be better off with some high compression JE's, Also have you considered running a Euro R intake manifold?

[BustedLX]

Originally posted by hybrid90accord


For the price of the type S pistons you would be better off with some high compression JE's, Also have you considered running a Euro R intake manifold? But you forget that the high compression JE's are non-FRM compatible so you will have to resleeve the block in order to use them so after you add all that up it's wayyyyy more expensive then the OEM Honda Forged 11.0:1 pistons.