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-   -   CyborgGT: Mild H22A Build (http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=171869)

PR CB7 09-16-2012 06:03 PM

230whp is achievable

so far experience i've gained from builds is
to get 240whp, 11.5 mahle slugs, skunk pro2, gears, skunk mani +70mm tb and kidd racing header

and to get 280whp,darton m.i.d, 13.1 JE k24 pistons,f22 bottom skunk mani, 70mmtb, skunk pro3, gears, ferrea, kidd racing header

so with some mahle's and pro2 you should be pretty good, although the only downfall i saw on using skunk cams is forget about your low-end, these cams really shine @vtec, a type s cam will show better numbers on low-cam

Joey GT-R 09-17-2012 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyborgGT (Post 3052718)
Joey: I need EVERYTHING, top to bottom. I'm doing a full re-build, so there's no point in leaving anything untouched. There's no deadline for this build, so I'm fine with waiting while I save up money for parts. I will definitely keep you in mind. I assume your discounts are just with OEM parts?

I have some access to aftermarket, it just takes a while to get that kind of stuff in. I will talk to some of my other parts guys around the country to see if they can do better, because some parts depts are more "tuner friendly" than others. I'm going to assume that you're not going to order all of this stuff at once, so just PM me the first batch of items you're looking for and I'll check them out.

CyborgGT 09-17-2012 02:20 AM

Thanks, Joey. I just picked up another car to daily during all of this, so once I know where my budget will sit with the new bills, I'll get in touch with you.

Isn't nearing 12:1 where pump gas starts becoming risky? It'll be a street car with only occasional road course, and hopefully autocross, use. With that in mind, I was wanting to stay near 11:1, and also have decent low-end power. Cams I'm still looking into but probably Crower Stage 2's and springs/retainers no matter what, and Euro-R manifold (I was originally thinking about going K-series RRC, but supposedly shorter runners are bad for low-end power). Tuning bits like pump/injectors and cam gears will be in there. Converting to coil-on-plug with AEM V2 I think would be a cool mod, too - since I want a RyWire harness anyway, they could integrate the COP system if I do go that route.

MortsAccord 09-17-2012 02:39 AM

If your going to go cop just get a sds-efi system. Id stay at <11:1 crap though. If a suppliers cam makes bad low end tq on a VTEC engine I wouldn't even think about using it. That totally defeats the purpose of VTEC.

I wouldn't mess with the intake manifold, id just make sure all flashing is removed, and all mating surfaces have smooth seamless transitions.

Joey GT-R 09-17-2012 03:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CyborgGT
Isn't nearing 12:1 where pump gas starts becoming risky?

Not necessarily, it's all in the tune. I have a buddy who runs 12.5:1 plus 10 lbs of boost off of a .82 A/R. He has a talented tuner though. If you have a daily though, you could possibly consider e85 or 100oct, but 93 could still be used. I would say though to definitely keep it under 13.5:1. But the best opinion you should get is from your tuner. They can tell you what they can offer you in terms of streetability.


Quote:

Originally Posted by MortsAccord
Id stay at <11:1 crap though.

So with it being a JDM H22 you're pretty much telling him to not build his bottom end?:confused:

MortsAccord 09-17-2012 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey GT-R (Post 3053111)
Not necessarily, it's all in the tune. I have a buddy who runs 12.5:1 plus 10 lbs of boost off of a .82 A/R. He has a talented tuner though. If you have a daily though, you could possibly consider e85 or 100oct, but 93 could still be used. I would say though to definitely keep it under 13.5:1. But the best opinion you should get is from your tuner. They can tell you what they can offer you in terms of streetability.




So with it being a JDM H22 you're pretty much telling him to not build his bottom end?:confused:

I meant to say CR.

You cant run that cr on pump gas without having poor ignition tables. What you end up with is barely any power over a lesser cr build, while making the engine take a beating for it.

Don't forget this is a daily driver on pump gas. Also japan engines run off a slightly higher rated fuel, they don't use our (r+m)/2 method either.

No offense but I also hate that "streetable" term. Its used poorly and confuses new enthusiast. Streetable is any car you can run on the road on fuel available at a gas station/pump. A cars lightweight flywheel wont make it any harder to drive for example. It wont ruin its "streetability" lol, neither will a high rpm build or a massive turbo setup. Only if it goes out of the scope of fuel that is available for a "street" car.

I bet that high CR boosted build doesn't run pump gas either. Maybe E85, but even that's pushing it /w what you said.

As for gear and power, JDM means nothing. Even more so since he's rebuilding it.

Remember the only reason new mazda cars get away with factory 9.1:1 cr and boost is because of coil on plug+ direct port fuel injection.

Joey GT-R 09-17-2012 03:46 AM

I don't follow you on the ignition tables logic; that sounds like more of a tuning issue than with the setup itself.

By your definition, I used "Streetable" in the correct verbage. It's all on his would-be tuner's abilities. What one tuner can do, another may not be able to. If his believes he can do a 14:1 on 93, than that's his limit. If he says he can only do 11.5:1 on 93, than that's his limit, unless he finds a different tuner. But again according to your definition, if e85 or 100 octane is available in his area, then it would still be considered "Streetable".

And you are right in a way, my friend tuned on 100 octane, but he drives around on 93 due to the cost of fuel. He has noted a slight decrease in power but not enough for him to care. He whoops on just about anything. By his definition, " it's a matter of 3.5 car lengths vs 5". So again, his car would be "Streetable".

Not sure where you're going with the Mazda argument, other than to say that they suck at building cars because they need coil-on-plug and direct injection to make a reliable turbo motor....Honda has proven years ago that they didn't.

CyborgGT 09-18-2012 02:09 AM

E85 is readily available in my city, but I'm not wanting to convert. I like being able to drive anywhere.

Joey GT-R 09-18-2012 09:48 AM

There's nothing wrong with 93. Just make sure you ask your tuner. But you should easily be able to run 12.0:1. With the altitude up there, maybe I'm thinking wrong, but shouldn't you be able to run more? Or is it the opposite and it's harder to tune?

19dabeast85 09-18-2012 09:14 PM

The higher the altitude the higher octane rating needed...all other variables constant. With some older cars (especially Ford Triton engines prone to carbon buildup) taking a trip to the mountains requires 89 or 91 gas to prevent pinging, detonation.

Joey GT-R 09-19-2012 06:46 PM

So in other words, he might want to keep it at 11.5:1?:confused: If all other variables constant, a 12.5:1 motor in Florida would be fine on 93, but in Colorado it might require 100?

19dabeast85 09-19-2012 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey GT-R (Post 3053918)
So in other words, he might want to keep it at 11.5:1?:confused: If all other variables constant, a 12.5:1 motor in Florida would be fine on 93, but in Colorado it might require 100?

It all depends on the tuner, you can tune a 12.5:1 on 93 safely in Colorado....but it won't make the power of the exact same setup tuned in FL. e85 is in pretty much every city now, you could safely tune 13:1 at higher altitudes and squeeze the max out.

CyborgGT 09-20-2012 01:23 PM

Okay, before I go pouring money into parts I guess I should make sure I know what exact engine I have. Does the "No.3 97" stamp behind the header mean I have a 1997 H22A? And are there going to be any slight differences between JDM and USDM engines of the same model year? Like for instance, I can't remember which ones were open deck or closed deck. I want to be sure anything I get from Majestic or HondaPartsUnlimited will work for me.

But it's out now!

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/g...ps1bfb56cc.jpg

Joey GT-R 09-20-2012 03:14 PM

Yes you have a 97 H22A1. I believe the compression on that is still 10:1. As far as I know, all USDM H22As were open deck. Only the JDMs came in a closed deck variant. Parts will all be the same regardless of the deck. You will have OBD2 specific parts of course but other than that mechanically they are the same. But the closed deck form is regarded as being better for boost. However that "issue" can be solved by simply sleeving the motor.

CyborgGT 09-21-2012 02:23 AM

Mine is JDM. I've always known them to be 10.6:1, and some searching reported that all 97-01 motors were open-deck, while all pre-97 models were closed-deck. The engine came with all the OBD1 parts (obviously; I had it running), but had what I figured to be an OBD2 intake manifold, which would make sense now that I know the block's a '97 too. Now, is a block guard a worth-while investment or should I not worry about that with such little power? Or is out-of-roundness really an issue with age?

Joey GT-R 09-21-2012 10:56 AM

Okay, I didn't realize you had a JDM motor. Then yes, 10.6:1-11.0:1 is the range of the JDM engines. But I nor anyone I've known has been able to decode the pattern in which the higher compression H22As are produced. My JDM H22A has 11.1:1 actually, and it's a 94. But I'm not sure why.

A block guard is really like a "band-aid" to your "problem". The block guard is only at the top of the block, it doesn't fill in all the space in the water jacket all the way down. Block guards can leak, and cause issues. While I've never experienced this problem personally, I have seen it occur on many B-Series setups, because to my knowledge they are all open deck as a shortcut to sleeving. However I've never seen an H-Series do it, and when the block guards fail it was all due to forced induction, not an all motor setup. And I've only seen block guards used for boosted builds period. For your build I wouldn't bother. If you want to do any kind of major build, more than likely you need to sleeve, and not add a block guard.

MortsAccord 09-23-2012 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joey GT-R (Post 3054541)
Okay, I didn't realize you had a JDM motor. Then yes, 10.6:1-11.0:1 is the range of the JDM engines. But I nor anyone I've known has been able to decode the pattern in which the higher compression H22As are produced. My JDM H22A has 11.1:1 actually, and it's a 94. But I'm not sure why.

A block guard is really like a "band-aid" to your "problem". The block guard is only at the top of the block, it doesn't fill in all the space in the water jacket all the way down. Block guards can leak, and cause issues. While I've never experienced this problem personally, I have seen it occur on many B-Series setups, because to my knowledge they are all open deck as a shortcut to sleeving. However I've never seen an H-Series do it, and when the block guards fail it was all due to forced induction, not an all motor setup. And I've only seen block guards used for boosted builds period. For your build I wouldn't bother. If you want to do any kind of major build, more than likely you need to sleeve, and not add a block guard.


Block guards don't leak. Gaskets do, a absent minded install could cause some cyln warping, but it would have to e on the edge of complete ignorance for the guard itself to cause a leak.

Im for them if you do it right. Few people heat cycle their blocks and then have them bored. But they are in no way as strong as sleeving. It just depends on the cost to the builder/enthusiast. If you can get a guard installed right for 200 including overbore, decking the block, line boreing and milling the head because you know people. Screw sleeves unless you got extra money or obsess over a prefect build.

Water jackets only become a real problem when the guard is installed too close to the top of the block. Any closed deck engine runs hotter than an open deck, block guarded engines aren't as bad as a closed deck as far as cooling goes.

Joey GT-R 09-23-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MortsAccord (Post 3055094)
Block guards don't leak. Gaskets do, a absent minded install could cause some cyln warping, but it would have to e on the edge of complete ignorance for the guard itself to cause a leak.

Im for them if you do it right. Few people heat cycle their blocks and then have them bored. But they are in no way as strong as sleeving. It just depends on the cost to the builder/enthusiast. If you can get a guard installed right for 200 including overbore, decking the block, line boreing and milling the head because you know people. Screw sleeves unless you got extra money or obsess over a prefect build.

Water jackets only become a real problem when the guard is installed too close to the top of the block. Any closed deck engine runs hotter than an open deck, block guarded engines aren't as bad as a closed deck as far as cooling goes.

I'll take your word on it. :shrug:

Since he's not doing a crazy build I believe the block guard isn't necessary. If anything he can do a Darton Dry or Wet Sleeve for around $700 installed. He can bore those out to 88-90mm without worrying about weakening the integrity of the sleeves. But I would like him to crack his open to see if he is even open deck in the first place. I've never seen a 97 JDM block before.....he might have the only option of sleeving. But he might be right in that it is open deck regardless of USDM or JDM.

Jarrett 09-23-2012 12:44 PM

Any H22A manufactured after 1996 has an open deck design. Regardless of whether it came from the US, Canada, Japan, Europe, Australia or Antarctica.

CyborgGT 10-03-2012 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigpoppa694lyfe (Post 3052438)
As for the rest of the gaskets, felpro should have a "conversion" set that contains all your bottom end gaskets and you can easily piece together the rest

I did end up finding this kit, and for a pretty good price. Arrived in the mail today. I also picked up an engine stand yesterday so I can start taking the engine apart and cleaning everything up in preparation for the build.

One thing about my build that's had me nervous is upgrading the fuel system. I know nothing about supplying fuel to any amount of power, and the different specs of injectors, pumps, and FPRs. Once the gaskets are taken care of, I think I'll go ahead piecing together the exhaust system since I'm sure of what I want. That bill is going to be a doosy.


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