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Suspension help

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    #31
    Originally posted by Corweena View Post
    DAMN RIGHT. 99&#37; of the time the answer from people is saying their crappy suspension is "good". And yes, if you had $50 sleeves and stock shocks, then yes they will seem great. But ride in a car equipped with Koni/GC (or other quality springs), KW, AMR, Fortune Auto, basically any setup with actual R&D into it, and you can easily see that the "good" suspension is only good when compared to junk. It basically follows the phrase "ignorance is bliss".


    On the note of comparing TruHart (shocks) to Koni STR.T. Koni is a Dutch company. Their STR.T are their "budget" shocks, and are actually made in Argentina. They are also a fairly new offering. The difference between the STR.T and the tried-and-true Sport (Yellows) is huge. They aren't made for aggressive setups, and are more of a stock replacement shock with slightly stiffer damping....comparable to say KYB GR2/Excel-G, or the old Tokico HP/Blues. So sure, you can compare TruHart to Koni, but its not a "true" comparison of sport shocks. If you compared them to the Yellows, they'd literally obliterate TruHart in every category except price.

    Also....with TruHart's shocks having a shorter stroke....its really irrelevant. Koni Yellows are not position sensitive. Meaning they perform the same at stock height, or dropped 3in. As long as they do not internally bottom out (which is why you have bump stops, to prevent that), they are completely fine. I've had friends slammed on Koni/GC and suffer no degredation in shock performance. Even if you switched to TruHarts with the shorter stroke, your bumpstops would still hit. So its really a moot point in the case for Accord suspension.
    I'm even a bit wary of Fortune Auto. They're "assembled in the United States", but the manufacturing location is undisclosed (or was when I last looked anyway). They may have legit engineering and r&d behind them (I can't confirm, but they seem better than most), but I'd like to know for sure that the materials and machining are top quality. Especially for that price. Otherwise, it's like saying Burger King is better than McDonald's because their burgers are "flame broiled". They're still the same processed crap. Can't polish a turd.
    I'm not saying that Fortune Auto IS bad, just that the information necessary to prove it without a doubt is lacking.






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      #32
      Originally posted by oni_cb7 View Post
      Sure, engineers know what they are doing when they TRY to design the car. But, the accounting department has the final say in how the car will actually be. Japan was in a recession during the 90's and a lot of car companies did not have good finances. This lead to many cars being produced cheaply and basically "designed" by the accountants. Not people I'd necessarily trust. Designers had their hands tied and were forced to cut corners and build cheap cars.

      Do you really want to trust accountants to know how a car's suspension should be set up?
      In my experience, OEM parts are of higher quality than about 95% of the aftermarket. This not to say OEM parts are the highest performing -- but they are typically well machined, well designed, and made of high quality materials. Any auto company has to put a lot fo R&D in a product that will literally end up in hundreds of thousands of vehicles and be expected to last decades with little to no maintenance.

      Most so-called performance parts MAY perform better than OE, but the expectation of longevity is much lower. OE suspension parts are expected to last 10 years and sometimes remain in service much longer than that. How many coilover kits remain in service after 10 years?

      Besides, in the 90's, Honda vehicles were vastly higher quality than pretty much anyone elses. Think about other contemporary cars from that era compared to a 1993 Accord. A Chevy Lumina? Ford Taurus? Chrysler LeBarons? These three turds were still using pushrod engines with 3-speed automatics.
      1992 EX, 306,000 miles - Track toy - M2S4, H23A1, ST rear swaybar, Wagon brakes, GC coil sleeves, KYB AGX dampers, Stoptech pads, Toyo Proxes R1R, 2.25" exhaust



      Stock F22A6
      VIR, 5/22/2016: https://youtu.be/eR5-ylSPsxk

      H23A1 powered
      NCCAR, 9/4/2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5WpxGrEpE
      CMP, 10/16/2016: https://youtu.be/DOqoe5f-GLY

      Comment


        #33
        Nothing wrong with pushrods! (I love my ls2!)

        The best aftermarket suspension manufacturers for casual street use are often oem suppliers as well. Koni, bilstein, h&r, to name a few. All can be found on high end European cars. H&R springs can be found on the Carrera GT. Truhart springs can be found on the pizza boy's "jdm" Elantra (yes, I know Hyundai is Korean. It highlights the ridiculousness of it. Though I'm sure jdm elantras exist.)






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          #34
          Yeah sorry Deev, I'm actually a big fan of well-designed pushrod engines. It's hard to hold a candle to any of the LS-series V8's and they get good fuel economy too (I think the new Vette gets 31 mpg highway with the 7-speed manual).

          Some of those old designs from the big three were horrible though. Remember the Iron Duke 2.5L that made 90 hp with micarta timing gears? Yikes!
          1992 EX, 306,000 miles - Track toy - M2S4, H23A1, ST rear swaybar, Wagon brakes, GC coil sleeves, KYB AGX dampers, Stoptech pads, Toyo Proxes R1R, 2.25" exhaust



          Stock F22A6
          VIR, 5/22/2016: https://youtu.be/eR5-ylSPsxk

          H23A1 powered
          NCCAR, 9/4/2016: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TI5WpxGrEpE
          CMP, 10/16/2016: https://youtu.be/DOqoe5f-GLY

          Comment


            #35
            Oh yeah. There were some serious turds!






            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by deevergote View Post
              I'm even a bit wary of Fortune Auto. They're "assembled in the United States", but the manufacturing location is undisclosed (or was when I last looked anyway). They may have legit engineering and r&d behind them (I can't confirm, but they seem better than most), but I'd like to know for sure that the materials and machining are top quality. Especially for that price. Otherwise, it's like saying Burger King is better than McDonald's because their burgers are "flame broiled". They're still the same processed crap. Can't polish a turd.
              I'm not saying that Fortune Auto IS bad, just that the information necessary to prove it without a doubt is lacking.
              I see where you're coming from. I will say, I appreciate their clarity when they say "assembled in USA" when they could easily lie and say they are made here. I have a good friend with a set of their stuff. Construction wise, they don't look any different than other stuff, but I assume its not going to be cheaply milled aluminum. Their internals are far superior, on the fact alone they are rebuildable. All their setups are individually shock dyno'd before going out. They also have distinct Generations....the Gen 5 were the ones over the past few years....they are just now releasing the Gen 6s.

              They also have a pretty cool trade in program for current owners of their products....you can send FA you older gen coilovers, and they will rebuild them with the new Gen 6 internals for what is a very good price. So, while their product pieces may not be produced here, they do seem to have MUCH higher standards and do take strides to push past pretty much 95&#37; of the other crap in the market.



              Just a few weeks ago too, on their Instagram Story, one day they pretty much posted their assembly process all the way through. Was a pretty cool inside look of how everything is put together.....and shows they aren't just getting stuff shipped to them from Taiwan all ready to go. They showed details such a filling the shocks with gas, all the seals and valving, etc. Was a great little 3min insight in to the whole process.

              Comment


                #37
                That does indeed inspire a good deal more confidence. I may not put them on par with brands like KW (who has supplied suspensions for AMG vehicles), but I'd say they're likely to be considerably better than 90&#37; of the stuff on the market for us now.






                Comment


                  #38
                  redshift Motorsports price break down

                  I emailed chris over at RedShift Motorsports and got some pricing for suspension.

                  Truhart with tien springs total cost is:

                  187$ Truhart shocks

                  189$ tien springs

                  315$ assembly, parts and labor

                  Total 724$
                  --------------------------------------------------
                  Koni yellows with h&r springs Total cost is:

                  $550 Koni Sport shocks

                  $227 H&R Sport springs

                  $315 Full Assembly Parts and Labor.

                  $1092 shipped.
                  ---------------------------------------------------------------

                  Assembly price breakdown

                  Front Assembly Parts:

                  Moog front mount kit $30 each

                  Moog front mount bushing kit $17

                  KYB boot/bumpstop kit $14

                  Total for each corner $61 so $122 for both fronts


                  Rear Assembly Parts:

                  Moog mount kit $21 each

                  Moog mount bushing kit $18 each

                  KYB boot/bumpstop kit $17 each

                  Moog lower spring isolator $8 each

                  Total each rear corner 64$ or 128$ for both rears

                  $25 assembly fee and $40 shipping cost.* So, 122+128+25+40=$315
                  Last edited by kseriescivic; 03-23-2017, 04:04 AM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Good deal! If you were planning on replacing that stuff anyway, assembly is basically free!

                    I still shudder at truhart, but koni & h&r are where it's at. Totally worth an extra $350! (Plus camber kit, plus alignment, possibly axles and ball joints...)






                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by 7beast View Post
                      My cb9 wagon has been rolling on function and form full coilovers for about 2yrs now rides great
                      Pretty much what everyone says, always gets good reviews.
                      I'm faster then a prius

                      Comment


                        #41
                        They're not a real suspension company, however. To my knowledge, they do no engineering or production of their own. They merely order their products from overseas suppliers. Without knowing exactly where they come from, I'd personally stay away. Good reviews from kids that know no better are fairly meaningless. F&F is one of the better brands among the cheaply produced stuff... but they're still cheaply produced stuff. I've been saying this for years, and not a single person has been able to offer any legitimate information in argument.

                        Bottom line: buy your suspension components from companies that actually engineer and manufacture suspension components. They are out there. Some of them aren't even that much more expensive than the cheap knockoff junk.






                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                          Good deal! If you were planning on replacing that stuff anyway, assembly is basically free!

                          I still shudder at truhart, but koni & h&r are where it's at. Totally worth an extra $350! (Plus camber kit, plus alignment, possibly axles and ball joints...)
                          I agree about the truharts, but people are going to do what they want not matter what others tell them. Maybe if they see that only a few hundred more dollars and you can have a great setup they will change their minds. I asked about the Koni setup for me personally because that's what I'm going to put on my car eventually.

                          Probably when I get my tax return I'll have the suspension ordered!
                          Last edited by kseriescivic; 03-23-2017, 09:48 PM.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by kseriescivic View Post
                            people are going to do what they want not matter what others tell them. !
                            That's sad but true. "My boi got em and he sayz there gud" is enough for far too many people, despite a dozen others saying that cheap crap is inconsistent and potentially dangerous. Anecdotal evidence and a few hundred dollars savings are all people need. Concerns for the safety of themselves and others are unimportant, because "it'll never happen to me!"

                            I wonder how many people with cheap crap suspension components have ever lost control of their car. I spun out once in a 92 DX coupe. Suspension was stock and in good condition. Tires in the rear were worn (I was cheap, and replaced the fronts only.) I forgot that I wasn't in my 92 LX sedan (with good tires and upgraded suspension), and I went too hard into a fairly gentle curve. The rear let loose, and I had a choice... stop the car while facing the wrong way on the highway, on the wrong side of a blind curve... or keep the brakes locked and let it slide ass-first into the wall. I took the wall, which was good, because an RSX can whipping around the curve seconds later. It would've hit me head on had I decided to stop the spin instead of hit the wall.
                            The experience made me realize two things: 1) when you lose control, it's often sudden and unexpected... it just happens, and once it does, you're just along for the ride. And 2) if you do have any options (as I did), you have a VERY limited time to make a decision, and you must know how your car is going to react to whatever decision you make. If your suspension, tires, brakes, or steering are unpredictable, whatever decision you make may not turn out the way you expect.

                            In my instance, I just totaled a beater that I had planned to blow up with a turbo kit anyway. Thankfully, I wasn't injured, and I was able to accurately predict what the car would do once I began to spin.
                            Putting that in the context of cheap, inconsistent suspension components (or improperly matched components, or worn components...) and change the scenario to a child chasing a ball out into the street... how well would you imagine an improper suspension setup would react? If you slam on the brakes, are your front wheels going to bounce? Is the car going to unexpectedly dive to the left or right? Or if you decide it's safer to swerve, is the tail going to kick out? Are you going to maintain control of the car, or end up in someone's front yard (probably running over another child in the process?)

                            It's absolutely terrifying... but "it'll never happen to me" remains the prevalent mindset. "It's not a race car", they say... as if driving on public roads isn't MORE of a reason to have quality suspension, rather than less...


                            Sorry for the rant. It's not directed at anyone in particular... just rambling about why I'm so hard on cheap suspension companies.






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