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    #16
    Just going to throw this out there as well.



    I definitely agree that our nation needs a culture shift, badly.
    I'm faster then a prius

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      #17
      I'm not trying to argue either way (personally, I'm for gun rights even though I don't care to ever own one myself - I understand the need for self defense as well as I understand that people are as interested in guns as a hobby as I am with cars), but the fact that that graph covers such a short period of time is going to have a massive impact on those percentages. I mean, look at it ONLY from 2000 to 2006. For all we know, personal gun ownership actually has zero relation to the homicide rate. Most murders don't happen when the gunman is surrounded by other people who may potentially be armed as well to keep that first person from taking out their gun in the first place.
      Last edited by CyborgGT; 10-04-2017, 09:56 PM.

      Accord Aero-R

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        #18
        And actually, a couple years ago northern Colorado had a string of sniper-style shootings that I don't think was ever solved. There were a ton of long-range shootings happening at first along the freeway (lots of windows blown out; I think a couple people were killed), and also at a few very random locations within the cities that killed a few others. The shooter either went to ground or relocated to Arizona, where I'm reading there was later a similar case.
        Last edited by CyborgGT; 10-04-2017, 09:56 PM.

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          #19
          These style attacks are usually planned, if I read correctly the Vegas guy had more firearms in his room. That means these people have the intent to harm as many others as possible. remove guns and what will these guys likely turn to? A couple of trips to home depot and some time on the internet can yield much higher body counts and as an added bonus there wouldn't even be a gunman to stop. Being able to protect yourself is a fundamental right, guns are an equalizer.

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            #20
            Originally posted by Bunta View Post
            These style attacks are usually planned, if I read correctly the Vegas guy had more firearms in his room. That means these people have the intent to harm as many others as possible. remove guns and what will these guys likely turn to? A couple of trips to home depot and some time on the internet can yield much higher body counts and as an added bonus there wouldn't even be a gunman to stop. Being able to protect yourself is a fundamental right, guns are an equalizer.
            I'm faster then a prius

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              #21
              First thing I want to say, Is I am a huge gun supporter/advocate


              Anyways, the graph is bullshit. Other stuff contributed to the widespread violence that tookover in the late 80's and that is really when gun violence peaked in recent times. if you lived through it, you know. Late 80's was way more violent than todays times.

              Anyone wanting to feel informed on anything I am about to quote, I got it from here:

              http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...993-study-says



              But anyways, chew on this:

              "Looking at the larger topic of firearm deaths, there were 31,672 deaths from guns in the U.S. in 2010," according to the Pew Center study. "Most (19,392) were suicides; the gun suicide rate has been higher than the gun homicide rate since at least 1981"


              Meaning more people died from someone feeling suicidal with a gun than anyone else that was killed with a gun.


              Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Also, just for the sake of conversation, of the 12,280 people that were murdered with a gun, 55% of them were African American(6,754). The other 5,526 people account for all other races in America combined, in a Country with a population exceeding 323 million. I am not trying to put a racial spin on this, just to emphasize that there is a disproportionate amount of Homicides among that demographic and further warps the way the numbers feel if you break it down that one step.

              On the flip side of the argument, Healthcare associated infections killed 99,000 people in America last year alone. Meaning you are almost 8 times more likely to die from an infection you got from your dirty ass Hospital than you are from a gun.



              Influenza and Pneumonia killed 57,062 people in 2014 and 146,xxx people died from "accidents"


              I sure hope those 12,280 people that died from gun crimes get fairly represented though. I mean, the ONLY THING that stops a person with a gun, is another person with a gun.

              But man, they sure are dangerous. That 0.0000038 % of the population surely represents the fate of all Americans as long as guns are on the loose.

              Fuck guns, right???...........////// end rant
              Last edited by toycar; 10-04-2017, 06:04 PM.
              Originally posted by wed3k
              im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

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                #22
                Originally posted by Bunta View Post
                These style attacks are usually planned, if I read correctly the Vegas guy had more firearms in his room. That means these people have the intent to harm as many others as possible. remove guns and what will these guys likely turn to? A couple of trips to home depot and some time on the internet can yield much higher body counts and as an added bonus there wouldn't even be a gunman to stop. Being able to protect yourself is a fundamental right, guns are an equalizer.
                All you have to do is look at history and the world to know this thought process will fail. But it's what you believe in, no disrespect there. A culture thing too.
                Some parts of the world are so bad one has to protect themselves with weapons. Some parts of the world they do not. Some use to, but have changed. Change is possible. It may have took 100+ years, but a change of this magnitude is possible.

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                  #23
                  Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                  All you have to do is look at history and the world to know this thought process will fail. But it's what you believe in, no disrespect there. A culture thing too.
                  Some parts of the world are so bad one has to protect themselves with weapons. Some parts of the world they do not. Some use to, but have changed. Change is possible. It may have took 100+ years, but a change of this magnitude is possible.
                  yes a cultural change would be just peachy, especially if we could convince all the crazies to just give out hugs instead of killing people. Unfortunately this is not the situation nor a possibility within the realm of humanity. Personally it'd would be better to have access to a firearm and be killed by someone that also has one than to be without any means of protection when one of the far outliers decides to go on a killing spree. Just one question, what is the one thing most responsible for stopping every terrorist/mass attacker? (hint, it isn't kind words and groups hugs)

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                    #24
                    Since this thread has turned into a debate about gun control, I don’t foresee it being long for this world. We’re not going to accomplish anything by bickering. We’ll just end up losing members. I don’t want that. I assume most of us don’t want that.






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                      #25
                      Sucks that the topic is so volatile


                      Nobody needs a machine gun

                      Nobody needs an ar15 that'll mow down a herd a zombies that just compromised a fence(walking dead reference)


                      Guns aren't exactly the problem.


                      To me these are two very separate issues. Vegas guy would've killed regardless of gun laws.


                      Doesn't mean we all need fucking machine guns either.


                      No middle ground in the conversation it seems, but common sense says otherwise. I'm waiting for the gun advocate to start saying it's legal to arm his drone.

                      Where do you draw the line. Bump stock firing is neat, it's fun to play with, but let's just be honest here;

                      It's a poor mans fully auto rifle. Nobody needs full auto for anything, ever, unless you are military.

                      Fun to play with, sure. I'll bite on that argument. Still, no way to justify the need though.
                      Originally posted by wed3k
                      im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by toycar View Post
                        Sucks that the topic is so volatile


                        Nobody needs a machine gun

                        Nobody needs an ar15 that'll mow down a herd a zombies that just compromised a fence(walking dead reference)


                        Guns aren't exactly the problem.


                        To me these are two very separate issues. Vegas guy would've killed regardless of gun laws.


                        Doesn't mean we all need fucking machine guns either.


                        No middle ground in the conversation it seems, but common sense says otherwise. I'm waiting for the gun advocate to start saying it's legal to arm his drone.

                        Where do you draw the line. Bump stock firing is neat, it's fun to play with, but let's just be honest here;

                        It's a poor mans fully auto rifle. Nobody needs full auto for anything, ever, unless you are military.

                        Fun to play with, sure. I'll bite on that argument. Still, no way to justify the need though.
                        I couldn’t agree more.

                        The loudest voices on both sides of the argument tend to take things too far. Either we should all be Rambo, or we should all be Ghandi. It’s all middle ground. It’s all a gray area. But no gray solution is going to be a total fix (not that any solution will be perfect, no matter how far to one side that solution may be).
                        The primary issue is the human element. And that is a constant. You can not remove the human element short of extinction of the species. As long as we’re human, folks will continue to do both good and bad with whatever they have to work with. And humans are resourceful, creative creatures.

                        We don’t need to take away everyone’s guns. We don’t need to issue every red blooded American their very own m16, either. We need something in the middle. And we need a focus on our society as a whole.



                        I realize I’m hypocritically participating in this conversation. But as long as it’s not at the level of being rude and insulting to one another, I’ll let it continue. The minute it turns ugly, it’s going to get locked.
                        Please don’t let it get that far.






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                          #27
                          Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                          I couldn’t agree more.

                          The loudest voices on both sides of the argument tend to take things too far. Either we should all be Rambo, or we should all be Ghandi. It’s all middle ground. It’s all a gray area. But no gray solution is going to be a total fix (not that any solution will be perfect, no matter how far to one side that solution may be).
                          The primary issue is the human element. And that is a constant. You can not remove the human element short of extinction of the species. As long as we’re human, folks will continue to do both good and bad with whatever they have to work with. And humans are resourceful, creative creatures.

                          We don’t need to take away everyone’s guns. We don’t need to issue every red blooded American their very own m16, either. We need something in the middle. And we need a focus on our society as a whole.



                          I realize I’m hypocritically participating in this conversation. But as long as it’s not at the level of being rude and insulting to one another, I’ll let it continue. The minute it turns ugly, it’s going to get locked.
                          Please don’t let it get that far.
                          IMO, the problem is much larger than the guns themselves. I am not a "gun nut," but definitely advocate for gun rights, just as much as I do voting rights etc. Call me a Libertarian.

                          So here is the bigger issue as I see it.

                          1) The 2nd Amendment is NOT vague in its punctuation or its intent. Nor is the intent of the people who wrote it vague or poorly known. There is this pushed contingent of indoctrination that attempts to portray the 2nd Amendment as ensuring the right to hunt, or somehow as a vaguely worded and not clearly understood facet of a document that is actually quite clear in ALL of its definitions and intent. There is an attempt to play it off as "obsolete" "unforeseen" or whatever else needs to be thrown out there to make it sound credible. There is plenty of historic record of the INTENT of the 2nd Amendment. It was to prevent government tyranny by means of a well armed populace. In the STRICTEST interpretation, which would be literal, the citizenry is entitled to be armed with anything the military is armed with. Now, there was understanding amongst the founding fathers that they be well regulated (basically meaning "trained"), so you could argue that training should be required. However, it is also true that mandated training on weapons use makes a person more effective and deadly in most cases. The reason the Vietcong and Iraqis didn't kick our asses faster and more often was because they didn't know how to use their weapons properly and we did (the AK-47 is MUCH more powerful than an M-16/AR-15). Actually, most people don't realize that an AR-15 has much less killing power than a typical off the shelf hunting rifle, such is the level of misinformation out there on these weapons.

                          2) However, the biggest problem as I see it is that if we start dismantling the parts of the Constitution that we "don't like" or don't "agree with" then that makes it open season on the rest of it because it starts a precedent (just like the escalating abuse of Executive Orders). What happens when a President or Legislature who is not of your persuasion decides you shouldn't be able to say something or should be punished if you peacefully protest and they are successful in dismantling that part of the Constitution/Bill of Rights?

                          If the Second Amendment gets demolished because some people don't like it or don't agree with it, then what happens when that particular group loses power to someone who doesn't like another aspect of the rights provided in the Constitution or Bill of Rights? Social and Societal whims are cyclical, which is precisely why they put those protections in there.

                          Our forefathers very deliberately chose liberty over safety, and they KNEW that the consequence of personal freedom was the inability to completely stop events such as these. Of course, I doubt they could have foreseen the magnitude, but they understood the premise.

                          3) People can deny it all they want, but documented history PROVES that power is always cemented by taking away the guns. EVERY_SINGLE_TIME. Pick a dictator or oppressive regime of your choosing. The Russian Communists, the Chinese Communists, Vietnamese Communists, the Nazis, the Italians, and on and on and on. It ALWAYS starts the same way. "We need to take your guns to protect you." "It has to stop!!!!" "Do it for the children." "We want to make a better society." EVERY_SINGLE_OPPRESSIVE regime in history has had to take the guns first, otherwise people would resist.

                          I am not a conspiracy theory nut by any stretch, but knowing how the anti-gun agenda in this country works, it would not surprise me one bit if this was their "long" game to remove the biggest impediment to them being able to remove the awful "gun toting rednecks" that they believe constitutes anybody that doesn't agree with them. I believe this because they constantly want to strip the rights of several hundred million law abiding citizens in the interest of safety, but absolutely will not budge on the mental health rights of less than .1% of the population so that these nuts won't be as likely to get the guns they use to kill innocent people in these shooting sprees. Do I think this was their guy? No. Do I think they put an intense of amount of focus and attention on it to create the desired effect? Yes. We kill literally thousands of people a day by speeding and talking on our cell phones. People mowed down in absolute tragic circumstances. Kids, children, mothers, grandparents, etc. The vast majority of those are caused by conscious decision to break existing laws because we want to. Nobody gives a shit about the consequences of those actions and you sure as hell don't see it blown up by the media...

                          As for this particular tragedy, I had a couple of good friends at the concert who were pretty shook up over it. My company is based on Las Vegas and we had to all check in through a system so that they could account for who might have been missing. It appears that everybody is OK thankfully. My wife heard all of the sirens responding to the shooting and immediately knew something was wrong.

                          This will be an interesting case study because unlike the vast majority of shootings prior, there were no clear and identifiable signs of mental problems with this shooter. They were clearly there, but there was no previous medical history to document it.

                          Also, to the comment earlier, I agree that bump stocks are essentially a way to make a semi-auto gun automatic. But it should also be noted that it is a work around (the law of unintended consequences) for the law that banned automatic weapons in the 1980's and then the next law that banned modifying the trigger and spring mechanism on a semi-automatic weapon to become automatic. So, somebody invented the bump stock. Outlaw that, and someone will invent something else that does the same thing in a different manner. If you outlaw all possible options, then you drive the black arms market, feed the cartels and create the same problem we have with drugs, humans and every other means of "black market" shipping. If people want to do harm, they will find a way.

                          Look at the massive uptick in bombings worldwide as a means to cause mass killing.

                          I also agree with verothecamaro, that it needs to be a cultural shift. We need to stop glorifying this behavior. We need to stop watching it, buying it, etc. We need to stop letting people who have issues go untreated, undiagnosed and unknown to the bigger system. We need to stop trying to protect people from any form of emotional distress and expecting them to cope when it happens. There is a lot of messed up stuff that needs to be dealt with and it isn't just the guns. The gun is merely a tool, and like any tool, does only what it is told to by its operator.
                          Last edited by owequitit; 10-06-2017, 04:33 AM.
                          The OFFICIAL how to add me to your ignore list thread!

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                            #28
                            Originally posted by HenRoc View Post
                            This.

                            One of my friends called me this morning to tell me that she had been up since 3 am worried sick and crying because of one her best friends was at that concert. She had finally heard from her but it pretty traumatizing from what I had been told.

                            Her friend was in the middle of it when it went down and she had gotten down to lay low from the gunfire and next to her a stranger who she had gone down with had been shot and killed..I for one don't know how I could handle such a traumatizing event especially witnessing someone die like that..


                            So I didn't post about it on FB because of that, I don't want him to get attention at all, if anything I would want the victims to be remembered..I have other reasons as to why I chose not to speak about it because let's be real:

                            If he was a person of color it would be covered in a totally different way you and I know that hell..the rest of the world would know that.

                            I'm not trying to stir the pot, but my question is why the hell won't they call it for what it is.

                            Domestic terrorism.

                            I don't give a damn if he lived a lavish life playing $100 hand poker. This moron committed an act of terror on towards people who were just having a fun night out only to be ruined by terror. It pisses me off because I feel like theyre just making excuses for this guy..oh he owned a few places lived in a retirement community...he would never do such a thing. blah blah

                            It makes me sad for sure but it also makes me very very weary of where I go. It shows that it could be ANYONE and anytime..doesn't matter what race you are.
                            Why does everything in this country have to be about race?

                            1) White mass shooters get pilloried the same as anyone else.

                            2) The use of "terrorism" in this country is taboo because it would A) admit that we have people within willing to attack us (we like to save the connotation to be about the other guy overseas) and B) it has a negative stigma that people immediately associate with Arabs, so it is a racially sensitive term.

                            3) You appear to be misunderstanding the explanation of what he had and how it relates to the case. They aren't bragging that he had money. They are merely talking about the fact that he didn't fit the profile of someone who typically commits a crime like this. The majority of these cases have been young, male kids in the ~high school to college age demographic that feel like they have been "wronged" by society. Or they are out to push a political agenda like on 9-11.

                            This shooter's history is relevant because he wasn't in financial distress (that we know of), he didn't have previous mental history (that we know of), he was financially successful, had a long term relationship, was socially engaged with his family and friends, wasn't historically politically involved, motivated or oriented, etc. In other words, it wasn't a situation where preliminary investigation started to uncover a large amount of information that would suggest there was likely to be a problem. Could he have snapped or gone crazy slowly? Absolutely. Could he have been a sociopath in hiding? Quite possibly (do some reading about his father, who was as notorious bank robber in AZ in the 1960's), but the reason that is all being talked about is because it is all stuff that is typically indicative of someone who would NOT commit a heinous act such as this one. That leaves a lack of an obvious motive, which is something that is uncommon. Adam Lanza is the only other one I can think of where they couldn't really determine the exact motive.
                            Last edited by owequitit; 10-06-2017, 04:45 AM.
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                              #29
                              Originally posted by HenRoc View Post
                              True but no matter how much they fight to be against it the NRA comes out swinging.

                              I have friends that carry..me personally? I hate guns, never drawn any interest from me whatsoever. I recently read there was more to the 2nd Amendment than meets the eye, a darker side to it.

                              Im all set. If doesn't tell you we need stricter control..I don't what else would be a friggin sign.
                              The NRA is just a lobby group like Greenpeace or WWF.

                              This is something I have seen pushed out of perspective lately apparently because we all need a large common "enemy." It is the lobby version of big corporations I guess.

                              The NRA is simply a voice or many millions of gun owners and the reason they have a large voice and thus a lot of power, is because the VOTERS that make up their lobby have the ability to remove or place law makers in pretty much every district. Since the law makers need NRA members in order to get elected, they listen very carefully to what the NRA says. It isn't because the NRA is some power group. It is more likely that it is your next door neighbor that is REALLY the powerful one.
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                                #30
                                Respectfully, I don't think following rules made in a very different world is the best way for a modern society to work.

                                I don't agree with it in the middle east and I don't agree with it here.

                                I understand and respect the views held to uphold tradition but it doesn't seem to work very well in practice.

                                Removing gun rights worked in my country. The many gun amnesty's we have has worked.

                                There are downsides to everything but we do not have the consistent gun violence.

                                We do still have violence. Stabbings, gang attacks, lots of terrible alcohol fuelled violence. People die.

                                But the risk factor is reduced.

                                People are always going to be terrible. Why make it easier for them to be so.
                                sold! But here's my build thread for those interested.

                                http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=206864

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