DSM Turbo Options

[TheChosenOne]

I have been reading up on the home made turbo kits using the eclipse's turbo setup.

I had heard of the "hx" manifold that bolted directly to a turbo, but I didn't know that F22's could be boosted so easily.

Now, my questions come from questions on aftermarket fitment

1. Would an after market eclipse turbo manifold fit a f22a1 in a 4th gen accord?

2. If so, is there a differnce in the 1g 4g63t and the 2g 4g63t?

3. What would be the most cost affective way to have the turbo tuned properly? Chipped stock ecu? Uberdata? Starion FMIC?

Sorry for the flurry of questions, but I am seriously considering my fisrt turbo build to be a DIY first turbo build.

I want to make sure I do everything correctly, but on a budget. Not a cheap, half-assed attemp, rigged POS budget. But a reliably functional turbo setup.

[smokeeey420]

I have been reading up on the home made turbo kits using the eclipse's turbo setup.

I had heard of the "hx" manifold that bolted directly to a turbo, but I didn't know that F22's could be boosted so easily.

Now, my questions come from questions on aftermarket fitment

1. Would an after market eclipse turbo manifold fit a f22a1 in a 4th gen accord?

2. If so, is there a differnce in the 1g 4g63t and the 2g 4g63t?

3. What would be the most cost affective way to have the turbo tuned properly? Chipped stock ecu? Uberdata? Starion FMIC?

Sorry for the flurry of questions, but I am seriously considering my fisrt turbo build to be a DIY first turbo build.

I want to make sure I do everything correctly, but on a budget. Not a cheap, half-assed attemp, rigged POS budget. But a reliably functional turbo setup.

1 - yes it will fit f22a1 ,a6, and h23

2 - the differances is flow. 1g tend to crack and not flow as much as 2 gs.
but the evoIII i believe it is the best dsm style.

3 - yeah a chipped p06 with crome or uber.


i got a 1g mani and a ported 2g o2 house for sale if you intrested/wanna see.

[SN2BH22CB7]

1 - yes it will fit f22a1 ,a6, and h23

2 - the differances is flow. 1g tend to crack and not flow as much as 2 gs.
but the evoIII i believe it is the best dsm style.

3 - yeah a chipped p06 with crome or uber.


i got a 1g mani and a ported 2g o2 house for sale if you intrested/wanna see.

( arabian voice )


EH MY FRIEND...

you forgot a CRUCIAL ingredient to this DSM turbo setup on a F22Ax

he has to drill the end hole on the turbo mani ( passenger lower side )

the last bolt...on the left side lower...doesn't line up right...so you will need to drill to make that first ( left lower ) hole line up with the exhaust head stud.

thought Id throw in a bit of missed information!


THECHOSENONE....you'd have to drill and tap the oil pan ..and put in a bung...for the oil return....get a T fitting for the oil sending unit ( above the oil filter ) for the oil feed..( get stainless braided lines ).

then..if you have a good friend that welds....have him custom make your charge pipes!....both intake and from turbo back ...like D112crzy said... ( its gotta be 3" exhaust ) nothing smaller ( for best flow )

heres a little STARTER of things you should get:

272 Delta Cam OR A6 cam
H23 complete Manifold
Walbro Fuel pump
DSM 450cc injectors
lightened Flywheel ( 8-14lbs )
stage 3 clutch
stronger axles ( http://www.driveshaftshop.com )
DSM manifold
16G turbo
PO6 ECU ( chipped )
H23 tranny

*** Id suggest replacing your headgasket and seals FIRST before boosting ***


if you really wanna throw some flavor in the mix...( do a H23/F22 hybrid ..or get either a F20A DOHC...F22B DOHC..or H23A DOHC engine and boost that )

and for your GO..you will need some STOPPAGE and HANDLING ( so upgrade your brakes and suspension as well )


bigger cams for the DOHC costs more...but its all up to you my friend...depends on what kind of tastebuds you have!

SOHC turbo...full matching DOHC turbo..or Hyrbid turbo!

if you're really serious...

heres a little something-something for ya

http://dsmparts.com/customer/product...620&cat=&page= ( manifold )

http://dsmparts.com/customer/product...=76&cat=&page= ( 16G turbo )

http://dsmparts.com/customer/product...=88&cat=&page= ( O2 housing )

http://dsmparts.com/customer/product...761&cat=&page= ( bigger turbo ) ** requires you to rebuild your block **

[deevergote]

The stock camshaft is best. A wilder NA camshaft has more overlap, and isn't suited to turbo.



As for the DSM setup, an aftermarket manifold will work. It'll line up with the ports, and you'll have to drill a hole just as with a stock DSM manifold. How the pipes bend might cause an issue with space... make sure it won't hit your accessories or radiator and you'll be good.

The 1st gen DSMs had the 14b turbo, and the 2nd gen had the t25. The 14b is the better (slightly larger, I believe) of the two. Both are technically too small for the 2.2L motor. The "big" 16g turbo from an EvoIII is the best choice if you're using a DSM manifold.
The other differences regarding the 1g and the 2g DSMs don't apply (different flywheel bolts, 2g crankwalk problem, etc... all motor-specific)

You'll want the 450cc blue top injectors. You probably know it already, but I'll say it anyhow... be sure to get OBD1 injectors

As for tuning, yes, a chipped p06 ECU and a good tuning program. Uberdata works, but it seems that it's no longer updated. Crome is popular, and ectune is getting popular. Both have free and paid versions (the paid versions are better, and not too expensive)
The Starion intercooler is a great piece, as is the Mitsubishi Fuso intercooler (same thing, I believe) They are the cheapest front mounts you're going to find. They aren't great, but for a low-boost budget setup, they'll be fine. Just don't use a skittle-sized turbo and you'll keep your heat down!



Unfortunately, the DSM setup IS a cheap, half-assed, POS rigged setup. You're using components to put a turbo on your old car that are from a car that's just as old! You seem to be someone who researches before jumping into something, so the chances that you'll make it work well for a while seem good. Still, the age of the car, the age of the components, and the added stress of turbo will accelerate wear regardless.

I built a DSM kit for about $600. My manifold was a gift, the turbo was something a guy was trying to get rid of (a t25), the charge piping was used in a CB7 before, the starion intercooler was dented, the p06 was a good deal from a member here, the injectors were a find on dsmtrader.com, and I never ordered the oil lines because I crashed the car
I fully intended to blow my motor up with that setup.



If you want any sort of reliability, spend the money for the "big" 16g. They aren't cheap, and they're still used turbos... but small turbos make heat, and heat kills engines. Get the bigger turbo. You'll make more power, and your motor will last longer.



Also, thank you for searching I should make this thread a sticky! As you can see, people are MORE than willing to offer extensive help when you show that you're willing to learn. This beats the hell out of 'wut do i need to put da turboz on my motor yo'

[SN2BH22CB7]

the DSM setup, an aftermarket manifold will work. It'll line up with the ports, and you'll have to drill a hole just as with a stock DSM manifold. How the pipes bend might cause an issue with space... make sure it won't hit your accessories or radiator and you'll be good.

The 1st gen DSMs had the 14b turbo, and the 2nd gen had the t25. The 14b is the better (slightly larger, I believe) of the two. Both are technically too small for the 2.2L motor. The "big" 16g turbo from an EvoIII is the best choice if you're using a DSM manifold.
The other differences regarding the 1g and the 2g DSMs don't apply (different flywheel bolts, 2g crankwalk problem, etc... all motor-specific)

You'll want the 450cc blue top injectors. You probably know it already, but I'll say it anyhow... be sure to get OBD1 injectors

As for tuning, yes, a chipped p06 ECU and a good tuning program. Uberdata works, but it seems that it's no longer updated. Crome is popular, and ectune is getting popular. Both have free and paid versions (the paid versions are better, and not too expensive)
The Starion intercooler is a great piece, as is the Mitsubishi Fuso intercooler (same thing, I believe) They are the cheapest front mounts you're going to find. They aren't great, but for a low-boost budget setup, they'll be fine. Just don't use a skittle-sized turbo and you'll keep your heat down!



Unfortunately, the DSM setup IS a cheap, half-assed, POS rigged setup. You're using components to put a turbo on your old car that are from a car that's just as old! You seem to be someone who researches before jumping into something, so the chances that you'll make it work well for a while seem good. Still, the age of the car, the age of the components, and the added stress of turbo will accelerate wear regardless.

I built a DSM kit for about $600. My manifold was a gift, the turbo was something a guy was trying to get rid of (a t25), the charge piping was used in a CB7 before, the starion intercooler was dented, the p06 was a good deal from a member here, the injectors were a find on dsmtrader.com, and I never ordered the oil lines because I crashed the car
I fully intended to blow my motor up with that setup.



If you want any sort of reliability, spend the money for the "big" 16g. They aren't cheap, and they're still used turbos... but small turbos make heat, and heat kills engines. Get the bigger turbo. You'll make more power, and your motor will last longer.

Mike...you kinda in a way...repeated what I said!

but good call on the Cam...HOWEVER..I know people that ARE running a bigger cam...for their turbo setup..with hollowed out H23 Mani ( no butterflies in runner )...and they got an extra 15 hp from that ( dyno proved it )

its either or....a stock cam is good for a turbo setup..but if you dont care about the fuel..and want a little more hp...then a bigger cam is good as well.

the bigger cam is HOWEVER best suited for NA as Mike stated...but people still "experiment" with the bigger cam and turbo.


OH YEAH...if he does choose the aftermarket DSM mani ...he will run into fitment issues...he will have to grind down some of the block..and use a halfsized Civic radiator. to clear the turbo for space!

if he uses the stock DSM mani ...he'll be fine with the full sized radiator!..but will still need to grind some of the block down! if he gets a big EVO 16G snail!

[deevergote]

I really just went to post about the cam and got carried away


But it has nothing to do with fuel. A high-overlap camshaft will cause the compressed intake charge to be sucked out the exhaust ports. Or, in a worst case scenario, if there is significant backpressure, reversion could contaminate the charge.

Your friends that gained 15whp. Was the cam ALL they did, or did they tune on the dyno as well? Where in the powerband was the gain?


There is a point where high overlap would work, but only if the exhaust system is free-flowing enough to prevent reversion (a bigger turbo is needed for that as well) The turbo would also need to be flowing sufficiently, and not dumping at the wastegate, to ensure that the charge that is pushed out is replenished by the time the exhaust valves close.

[SN2BH22CB7]

I really just went to post about the cam and got carried away


But it has nothing to do with fuel. A high-overlap camshaft will cause the compressed intake charge to be sucked out the exhaust ports. Or, in a worst case scenario, if there is significant backpressure, reversion could contaminate the charge.

Your friends that gained 15whp. Was the cam ALL they did, or did they tune on the dyno as well? Where in the powerband was the gain?


There is a point where high overlap would work, but only if the exhaust system is free-flowing enough to prevent reversion (a bigger turbo is needed for that as well) The turbo would also need to be flowing sufficiently, and not dumping at the wastegate, to ensure that the charge that is pushed out is replenished by the time the exhaust valves close.

not only the cam...they did some extensive head work ( springs..retainers..cams..PNP..shave for clearance of the cam...etc.etc. )

and they tuned their PO6s with crome ( 2 CBs ) same setup both close dyno printouts...one had slightly more trq due to new trans...fresh rebuild..and clutch.

Both had high flow exhausts... 1 had straight through 3.5" sounded raspy.. :

NOTE: a big cam= lopey idle

the powerband for both was from 4200 all the way to redline.

the hollowed out H23 intake mani helped with the low to mid trq

1 pushed 263hp at the crank..and 237 at the wheels...192 trq

the other..

265 at the crank...241 at the wheels..and 203 trq ( the one with fresh rebuild ..trans and clutch )

the one with the fresh rebuild...was pushing

NOTE: those numbers are MAXED out!...top PSI 12lbs

first one:

263crank/237wheels 192 trq...was breaking up in the upper RPMs due to stock fuel pump.

while the other was pulling fine ( upgraded to a Venom fuel pump ) * his choice *

[TheChosenOne]

Thanks everyone for all the GREAT info.

smokeeey420
SN2BH22CB7
deevergote

You all will be repped for the positive input.

I have done a load of research on most of the cb7 forums, accord forums, and specifically almost everything in this forum. Since I could not post in the regular forums where most of the info way, so I started a very direct thread on my specific goals. I am convinced that I can make reliable power with the stock f22a1 SOHC plant. I DO NOT want to change any major aspect to the motor as far as the head and block are concerned.

I just got my cb7 this weekend. I am not braging when I say the car is EMACULATE FOR A 92. It just went over 200,000 miles, and motor is as responsive as it was when it came off the lot. I bought it from the original owner who purchased the car for his wife. She drove the car to her job, the grocery store, and home! He had a three inch binder that had EVERY maitanence sheet the car ever had, all filed in chronological order. The car still has the factory shine with a few dings. New battery, shocks, head gasket, a/c conversion, radiator, and it had a de-carbonization performed on it 800 miles ago. All for the robust price tag of $2,200 in cash.

So, with that being said, the car is stock, and ready to be modded buy me, and ME ONLY.

All I intend to do the car before I boost it, is to lower it with tokico's and ground control's, throw some benen tow hookes on it, front lip, kowerd hood, and paint to LX stock hub caps white ( ).

Now, back to the DSM turbo setup. I really like the input about the starion front-mount, the EVOIII turbo along with all the other OE parts that can be used to make it work!

I am already acustomed to Chrome and it's capabilities, so the chipped P06 will most likely be my choice, but I am really not as read up on it as I should be.

One of my questions was, will aftermarket axles be necessary? I don't plan on high boost, I am really wondering if heavy duty axles will really be a must. Also, will a H23 tranny be a must?

And it's kinda satisfying to hear that my question could be STICKYED, because im sure there are plenty of people who want to know the same thing, but have yet to ask. Why wouldn't some want to have a guide to the cheapest way to build a "RELIABLE" all OE turbo kit>.

[TheChosenOne]

sorry, deevergote, it wouldn't let me rep you cause I repped them two first. (based on order of post)

[TheChosenOne]

Sorry about the mini-post whoring, but i'm researching, and directly replying there after.

Question:

1. What are the pros/cons of running the Mitsubishi DSM Big 16G over the Mitsubishi EVOIII 16G ?

2. What is the funtion/purpose of the o2 housing?

[TheChosenOne]

What about this EBAY DSM turbo & manifold kit?

Ebay DSM 16G Turbo Kit

It looks decent, but there is no way to be sure of the reliability because the brand of the turbo isn't even listed. Unles some had used it?

[deevergote]

No problem on the rep. This site IS my rep

You shouldn't need stronger axles for a DSM turbo setup on a stock block. You most likely won't make enough power at 6-10psi to break an axle... unless you launch like a dumbass every chance you get... on slicks... Getting stiffer mounts, like the ESP mount kit (or urethane filled stock mounts), as well as a traction bar setup (ESP again, or Collective Racing if Scott gets back to making them) could help you from potentially breaking an axle due to unnecessary movement. Don't launch like a madman, and you probably won't have to worry, though. When you do get axles, I've heard good things about Driveshaft Shop and Gator.

You WILL need a new clutch. The torque from the turbo will eat a stock clutch, especially if it's original (at 200k, if it's original, it's probably toast by now, or close to it!) XTD's Stage 3 is decent. I'm running it on my H22, and I'm pleased with it. Not a "stage 3" as compared to the more expensive brands, but the price was right. Almost 2 years on it and I've had no issues with the clutch. DO NOT use an aftermarket throwout bearing, though. I knew this and was too lazy to get an OEM Honda one... I seriously regret it now!

That turbo kit actually looks damn good! It should be a Mitsubishi turbo, or the ad is misleading. The manifold, o2 housing, and downpipe might be cheap quality, but they should last for a little while at least. Better than a used cast iron manifold from a junkyard car (most are already cracked). Even the buy it now price on that isn't unreasonable for what you get. Those turbos alone can sell for a pretty high price used. I think that's a "Big" 16G. I'd get someone else's confirmation before getting it for sure though! 91accordexr33 might be able to help you on that, if you PM him about it.

The o2 housing holds the oxygen sensor, if I'm correct.



The EvoIII 16G is the "Big" 16G, I believe. There is a smaller 16G, as the "big" title to the other one implies. It's larger than a 14b, but not as large as the "big" one. I don't know the specifics (though I'm sure they can be found easily enough on a DSM site)
Bigger turbos make more power. Smaller turbos make more heat. Heat is bad. You don't want heat! Most DSM turbos are made for 2.0L motors, as that's what the 4G63t is. Smaller engines can use smaller turbos. With our bigger 2.2L motors, turbos intended for the smaller motors aren't right, and can be harmful.


As for tuning, have you tuned a Honda motor before? Or any ECU for that matter? It can be pretty complex. Not impossible, but it takes a good deal of learning to do it right. Once you hit 30 posts, you can post in the ECU Tuning section of this forum (a subforum of the Technical section). You should also check out www.pgmfi.org (which will HOPEFULLY be around for a while... stupid legal troubles going on with them)

If you don't know someone with the tools to tune an ecu, you'll have to invest in some datalogging tools, as well as a chip burner. Burners are about $80, I think... maybe less. A chipped p06 can be had for about $100, or considerably less if you get ahold of a cheap stock ECU, a chipping kit ($25 or so), and have the ability to solder neatly and follow directions Then you'd at least need a wideband oxygen sensor. Cheap Bosch ones can be had on ebay for very little (I found one yesterday for about $65 shipped). You could get an entire system, like the Innovate LM-1, which will run you about $400. Other things, like an exhaust gas temp sensor and a vacuum gauge would also be helpful. The more information you have coming from your engine, the better you can tune it!
You might want to experiment with tuning on the engine BEFORE you go turbo. It's harder to blow up an engine that isn't boosted.




Other than that, good luck, and feel free to ask whatever you need. I'm no expert, but I'll gladly help where I can. We DO have some people on here that are extremely knowledgeable about turbos, so they'll be able to help where I can't.
One thing, though... your motor has 200k on it. It may be in good shape, but be prepared for it to quit at any time with the turbo. It may last a very long time, or it may die after a month. F22As aren't extremely expensive, so having a backup might be a good idea! I'm probably being over-cautious by saying that... but I've seen a few people in the past who felt they would be safe with their 15 year old motors after doubling the horsepower (which is VERY possible... 250whp even is doable on a stock block with good tuning) It might last, but it is old and very used... even a well-maintained engine might give at that point!

[TheChosenOne]

Thanks again man.

I am actually a member on pgmfi.org, but I seriously doubt that I will ever tune and chip my own motor. EVER. lol

I would more than likely, send it off to have it chipped by someone.

And about the 200k motor, I figured that I would tune the turbo setup to be as modest as possible, without becoming rediculously de-tuned. I know that it will blow faster than usual, but I would love to get atleast 25k-50k out of the boosted setup. Maybe 8 lbs. or so, with responsible driving , I don't see why it wouldn't last me a few years.

Plus, just like you said, I would be able to throw another f22 in there, with the quickness.

[SN2BH22CB7]

old note:

on the axles....I was speaking on PERSONAL attributes!

I PERSONALLY would get aftermarket axles...to save you the headache of hunting down some..if you however... do a FULL rebuild and do go with some serious boost ( over 20psi )

then..I would get stronger axles ( stronger than OEM )

[TheChosenOne]

old note:

on the axles....I was speaking on PERSONAL attributes!

I PERSONALLY would get aftermarket axles...to save you the headache of hunting down some..if you however... do a FULL rebuild and do go with some serious boost ( over 20psi )

then..I would get stronger axles ( stronger than OEM )

Since I'm not planning on running anything above 10 psi, I'm going to be bold and take the chance with the stock axles.

The only thing that I will replace is the clutch with a Competition clutch.