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Old 09-01-2013, 09:37 PM   #1
Tishock
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Swap chronicles: Transmission, 5th gear swap, LSD, clutch and flywheel

Work in Progress.

10/14/2013. UPDATE: The tranny, clutch and flywheel are in! Holy shit balls! Even though I still cant go crazy with it, because of the break in period. It feels fucking awesome! Smooth clean shifts, definitely more aggressive and f22 5th gear fuel economy.

The measurements table has been updated, one more video has been added and took a few pics with my phone when the camcorder battery died. At a later date I'll record the reassembly of my donor tranny.


If there's anything you think I should add to this thread please let me know.

______________________________________

PARTS

Rebuilt M2S4 (H23) transmission
H2A5 (F22) 5th gear set from spare H2A5 (F22) transmission
Mfactory LSD - part# MF-TRS-05H22
Competition Clutch - 11.5 lbs Flywheel
Competition Clutch - Clutch 1.5 part# 8014-1500

Additional supporting parts

New Honda Final Drive bolts - part # 90017-689-000
MFactory magnetic drain plugs for tranny and oil pan - part# MF-ENG-02SET
TASAuto Stainless steel clutch line - part# 191300
ARP Flywheel bolts - part# 208-2802
ARP Clutch pressure plate bolts - part# 108-2201
NTN differential tapered bearings - large and small
Torco MTF


BACKGROUND

Like many of you I've been wanting to do this swap for a while now, but finding definitive detailed info is hard to come by. From my many hours of research, I know that many have done the swap successfully but most fail to give any real useful data. I did find some useful threads but even many of those threads would die incomplete or the OP would fail to add the additional data promised.

As you may know the goal of the H23 tranny and the 5th gear swap is to upgrade to the more aggressive 1-4 gearing of the m2s4 (H23) transmission and retain the freeway friendly 5th gear of the F22.

Iíve R&R one transmission before but never gotten into the guts of one until now. I've researched different DIYs on many forums and YouTube videos. Both covering F, H, B and D series transmissions. The plan is to have a video camera running nearly the whole time. Not for a DIY but more for others to review my work. But I'm feeling pretty confident I can to do this. So this may end up becoming a DIY or a what not to do post.

I will be posting Youtube videos as I progress and I imagine I'll be stopping many times to ask for advice.

Originally I was planning to use an OBX LSD. But, because of build quality issues written about on way too many forums, I decided to go with the MFactory LSD instead. I did find some articles and a website that have upgrade/rebuild parts for the OBX LSD that resolve many of the build issues. The same site does a good job of explaning the flaws and has a good "How To" guide to repair the flaws. See below.
http://rbryant.freeshell.org/obx_washers.htm


REFERENCE:

List of Youtube videos and forum posts I used for reference.
Many more links to come...

How Does a Manual Transmission Work? -EricTheCarGuy


Evans Tuning Differential Swap Tech Article - Part 1-3
(Doesnt cover the gear swap but these videos pretty much cover everything else. Even though this is meant for a B-series tranny it helped me a lot.)




Prelude f/h22 transmission R&R - Part 1-3




Civic Clutch and flywheel Install


Honda-Tech.com
http://honda-tech.com/transmission-d...-swap-3060964/
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2411948
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1694413
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3028031
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=555929
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3060006

Preludezone.com
http://www.preludezone.com/5th-gen-h...-pictures.html

PreludePower.com
http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=356224
http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s...d.php?t=307769
http://www.preludepower.com/forums/s....php?p=3017905

Preludeonline.com
http://www.preludeonline.com/f89/tip...nation-106113/

6thgenaccord.com
http://www.6thgenaccord.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=16340

ETC

cb7tuner.com
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...&highlight=h23
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=3034490
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=171712
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=125202
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=184194
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=150309

Prelude Service manual PDF download
http://prelude.openbarr.com/manuals/...92-96_lude.pdf

honda-acura.net
http://www.honda-acura.net/forums/do...ld-89pics.html
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:37 PM   #2
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QUESTIONS

1) Counter shaft 5th gear. The m2s4 5th gear has oil notches/valleys on both sides. While the h2a5 only has them on the bottom side and not the top (See pics). Should I add the oil notches/valleys or do I need to get them done professionally? I'm assuming it does matter, or does it?

UPDATE: You do have to add the oil pasages

Top


Bottom


2) So it looks like I’m going to need a 2mm shim/washer between the countershaft 5th gear and the bearings. ID will need to be 25mm and the OD will need to be at least 35mm. See pics for gear height difference. Any suggestions on what I should use? What material should it be made of? I was thinking of using an old bearing from my spare f22 tranny and having it machined to size.

UPDATE: I ordered a shim, # 8 25x35x2 from http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/...-assembly.html. This should take care of my spacing issue.

H23 .................................................. ............... F22 - Splines do not show through the top of the gear


Spacing between H23 gear and bearing


Spacing between F22 gear and bearing

_________________________________


ISSUES:

1) The diff wobble is not normal in video #5 @ 8:15 minute mark . I placed the h2a5 diff in to the m2s4 case and there was considerably less wobble. But still some wobble. The h2a5 diff in its own case had very little if any wobble. The m2s4 diff in the h2a5 case had some wobble but not nearly as much as it did in its own case.

- Not happy about this . The large outer ring race was not seatedt/level in the diff housing. Also the corresponding large bearing was not completely seated on the diff. Fortunately I'm using new bearings and of course a new LSD so this will be fixed.

UPDATE: using new bearings and the matching races did correct this issue.


2) My h23 tranny was missing the stopper ring (see pic). When it was rebuilt it must have been left out. Yeah I was right these sons of bitches that rebuilt the tranny did not re-install the Stopper Ring (see pic) under the bearing on the main shaft.

UPDATE: Fortunately the h2a5 (f22) Stopper Ring fits the m2s4 (h23) mainshaft perfectly.





.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:38 PM   #3
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MEASUREMENTS IN mm

These measurements were taken using a cheap HF digital caliper so dont expect these to be dead on. But they should be close enough.

UPDATE: More measurements taken and some pics added/replaced.


1st measurement


2nd measurement


3rd measurement


4th measurement (top)


5th measurement (bottom)


6th measurement (bottom)


7th measurement (bottom)


8th measurement (top)


9th measurement (top)


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Old 09-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #4
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VIDEOS

I'm just going to upload the video clips unedited. I'll try to add some details above each video as I go. So far its just following the service manual. If this does become a DIY I'll add the pages from the service manual and maybe re-shoot some of the clips

Rebuilt M2S4


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Video #5 - See Issues in post #2 - Diff should not wobble like that @ 8:15 minute mark

__________________________________________________ ________

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I did record myself doing this part but Evans Tuning's video is so detailed that there is no point in me uploading my version. This is exactly what I did except we torque our FD bolts to 74lbs. Make sure to use new bearings on your new LSD.

I got on a groove and forgot to turn the camera on when replacing the new matching races. Its not a terribly difficult process you just have to be careful to tap them in straight. Using a bearing driver set makes it easier.

__________________________________________________ ________

m2s4 (h23) tranny with h2a5 (f22) 5th gear set installed. The shift forks were not installed for this test fit.

__________________________________________________ ________

Just for shits and giggles.

h2a5 (f22) tranny with m2s4 (h23) 5th gear set installed. The shift forks were not installed for this test fit.


__________________________________________________ ________





.
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:39 PM   #5
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PHOTOS
I'm just going to use this as a place holder for pics being used throughout this thread.













h23 with f22 5th gear set


f22 with h23 5th gear set





















The following pics are courtesy of H311RA151N






























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Old 09-01-2013, 09:40 PM   #6
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NOTES
My observations and hopefully helpful tips for others.
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:19 PM   #7
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Did you measure the thickness of the 5th gears? I have read that the F22 5th gear is a bit wider than the H22 5th gear and it needs to be shaved in order to install it in an H22 transmission.
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Old 09-02-2013, 09:55 PM   #8
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See updated post #4.
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Old 09-04-2013, 10:03 AM   #9
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I love what you are doing here. Details, pics, videos. Everything being measured correctly.



You are the man


Quality stuff in your thread here!
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Old 09-04-2013, 07:44 PM   #10
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Thank you sir.

I'm trying my best to keep things organized. And I still have a lot more to add to this.
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Old 09-09-2013, 03:10 PM   #11
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Lots of respect and wonder at how much devotion this takes. Rebuilding the transmission is an accomplishment in itself, let alone upgrading and revolutionizing it like you are, well, my regards. I have a feeling this will lead many people to start doing what you have done.. Thanks for all your hard work. It's much appreciated.
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Old 09-09-2013, 08:45 PM   #12
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Thanks.

Yeah, the reason why I bought a spare f22 tranny and a rebuilt h23 tranny. Was so that I could take my time to do this project. The more I tinker with the guts of these 2 trannys, the more everything is making sense to me. The manual does a pretty good job of breaking everything down but outline images of parts only help so much. Seeing the parts in real life, makes it a lot easier to understand. I hope to share what I learned with the rest of you with these videos and photos.

Now, I'm still a long way from having everything installed but I'm feeling really good so far.

_____________

Again, If there's anything any of you think I should add to this thread please let me know and I will do my best to get it done. Also, I will be adding a couple more questions and many of my notes/observations to this thread throughout the week. So stay tuned.

.
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Old 09-11-2013, 10:44 AM   #13
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Subscribed , Big props on taking this on, cant wait to see the finished product.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:36 AM   #14
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Reminds me of when I had to change the 5th gear needle bearing on my H2A5 a couple years back. Except you're actually taking measurements and video; awesome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tishock View Post
Again, If there's anything any of you think I should add to this thread please let me know and I will do my best to get it done. Also, I will be adding a couple more questions and many of my notes/observations to this thread throughout the week. So stay tuned.
Since you have the measurements, I would have to say that there is one measurement missing: you should take a measurement of an "outside diameter" (the gear part) face to its opposing "inside diameter" (the hub part) face, so that you know the offsets from both sides.



You only need one of the two, e or d, and you can calculate the rest. Having both wouldn't really hurt anything though.
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Old 09-12-2013, 01:22 PM   #15
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Thanks.

I'll get those measurements and post them over the weekend.
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Old 09-15-2013, 02:39 AM   #16
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Another half day today 09/14/2013. Cant move on without answers to my 2 questions. I added many more measurements and pics today.
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Old 09-15-2013, 03:52 AM   #17
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Good work! It looks to me as though all you need is the ~2 mm shim between the fifth gear and the bearing on the countershaft, just like you describe.

If those splines don't show through the top of the F22 gear, the bearing on that machined surface has an ID of 23 mm. Honda sells a 23x35x2 "washer" they use in one of their motorcycle transmissions: #24 in this diagram: http://www.partzilla.com/parts/searc...ION/parts.html
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Old 09-15-2013, 09:34 PM   #18
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Where did you get 23mm from? When I measured it I got 25mm.

I'm looking through similar sites for a shim/washer. Thanks

A quick search gives me the results below. I keep finding motorcycle washer/shims that would fit the bill. I'm thinking of just using #8 in the first link.

UPDATE: I ordered the shim 25x35x2 from the first link below....

I'm going also to call Synchrotech and see if they have a better option, they're only a few miles from me.


http://www.2wheelpros.com/oem-parts/...-assembly.html

http://www.bmwmcchattanooga.com/prod...211451144.html

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/ho...5-759-000.html

http://www.gearhead.com/honda-90565-759-000.html#Error

http://user.xmission.com/~wendell/R1100GS/trans.html
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Old 09-16-2013, 12:23 AM   #19
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Oh shoot, you're right; my apologies, I was looking at the spacer spring inner dimension, not the bearing. That shows as 25mm.
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Old 09-16-2013, 04:27 PM   #20
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So far the f22 gear set does work with some modifications. I was hoping that the f22 gears would be a straight swap but that is not the case. Using a 25x35x2 shim and adding the oil passages is the way to go.

But, with what I know now, I see that going with the f23 gear set would have been the much better choice (see pics). Looks to be a direct replacement. Nothing else would need to be done. It looks to be the same height and it has the oil passages we want.

I'm going to try to get myself a set of f23 gears and I'll share the measurements when and/or if I get them. Also I'm thinking of getting a cheap broken/beat up h22 transmission just to dissect.

The h2a5 counter shaft is about 2mm shorter than the m2s4 counter shaft. This leads me to believe that the oil passages on the m2s4 counter shaft gear were an update made after the h2a5 tranny for better oiling on higher revving engines. And in turn the shaft was lengthen to compensate for the taller gear.

The teeth counts are the same on both the f22 and f23 gears (MS 35 and CS 24).


Here are the fifth gear sets side by side, F23 set up front, H23 set in the rear. (See link http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2411948)



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