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Old 05-09-2018, 08:19 PM   #1
Jarrett
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Tubular Chromoly Front Subframe Group Buy Feeler Post

Hello everyone! I'd like to put a feeler out there for those of you who take their crappy old Hondas a little bit more serious than most sane people. I'm wanting to gauge the potential market on here to see who would be interested in a chromoly front subframe for their Accord.

I began looking for a fabricator that would be able to create a jig fro the factory subframe and recreate it from tubular chromoly. The tubular steel construction would allow it to be much less obtrusive for those wanting to do J-swaps (like me) or K-swaps. Both of those engines have exhaust ports that are rear-facing and the subframe can create issues with manifold and downpipe routing. In the case of the J-series transmission, the actual differential won't clear the subframe without significant notching. Using a chromoly steel would allow us to shave up to 20 lbs off of the OEM part while gaining a ton more strength.


Below is a picture of a similar product for a 1988-1991 Honda Civic/CR-X. I believe this one is missing sway bar mounting provisions, but that makes sense as Whitfield primarily focuses on drag cars.






The company I have in mind is one that's here local to me in Houston. It's a company that has extensive experience building dedicated drag cars which require numerous certifications depending on the respective class, and all have to pass visual safety inspections. They are more than capable of handling a job like this. Check them out below. The fab company is 660FAB, which is the fabrication portion of ALLN1 Autoworks.


https://www.instagram.com/660fab

https://www.instagram.com/alln1autoworks/

https://www.facebook.com/660-FAB-153575618622661/



I would imagine pricing would be in the $1500 neighborhood, with the potential to be lower depending on economies of scale. I imagine there are only three or four others that would realistically do this to their 25 year-old car in 2018, but with the popularity of K-series and J-series swaps only going up, I thought it worth it to present everyone with the option.

There are 100 questions I know anyone would have, so instead of trying to answer them all now I'll just let people ask and try to answer them as they come. The timeline I'm thinking for this would be around 6 months from now that I would take the car to the shop for fitment. I could take them my subframe as soon as this month. Just to give everyone an idea of when to commit to something like this.

Thanks for any interest and let me know what I can answer for you!
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Old 05-10-2018, 09:38 AM   #2
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I would actually really like to see this happen. Especially given that we have a 6 month lead time on this. I can start working on setting some cash aside now for this endeavor. After this being brought up and then having our hopes crushed. I was thinking of ways to stiffen up the sub-frame we have currently, as was thinking about grabbing one from a junk yard to start working on. I would rather just get a tubular frame that is far stronger.

The only thing I want to see is the provisions for the sway bars obviously.

I have a feeling that eventually Lola is going to end up with a J series engine in her.
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Old 05-10-2018, 11:14 AM   #3
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Would this setup help for the J series to sit just low enough to clear the CB hood also? Somebody needs to make a CB “bump up” hood like jdm EF civics had.
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Old 05-10-2018, 04:27 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rilas View Post
The only thing I want to see is the provisions for the sway bars obviously.
Any part that I had made would have provisions for a sway bar. The Civic part I used as a reference did not. If anyone who purchased one of these did not want to use a sway bar, they can just opt to not run a sway bar. That way, everyone gets what they want.

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I have a feeling that eventually Lola is going to end up with a J series engine in her.
Do it.


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Originally Posted by NH-503P-3 View Post
Would this setup help for the J series to sit just low enough to clear the CB hood also? Somebody needs to make a CB “bump up” hood like jdm EF civics had.
It potentially could as it would allow the engine to sit further back, which would also allow the installer to set the differential location for the correct axle angle.
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Old 05-13-2018, 10:47 PM   #5
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Is this thing really THAT far-fetched? Only one other interested person? I didn't think it would have the same success as the Cheddas rear top hat group buy, but I thought at least three other people, for sure.

Does anyone have concerns other than cost? Is it a want vs. a need? Is it not really even a want? Give me some feedback.
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Old 05-14-2018, 07:29 AM   #6
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Not that this is the best feedback, but I'm sure price sucks.

I don't need this right now but I really want it. I have a feeling that in a few years, Lola will have a J engine in her bay. This would seriously help with that I have no doubts.

I'm trying to stiffen up the chassis as much as I can without getting seriously drastic and stitch welding the entire body. Although that isn't out of the realm of possibilities. A solid sub-frame would really help with this as well.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:20 AM   #7
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The plan all along was to design it to where it was identical in dimension and fitment to the factory subframe. With you and another local guy here being the only other two interested, and both of you also considering J series engines, it may behoove us to go ahead and design the plate that the rear mount will bolt to around J series fitment. That would mean I would need to take them the car with swap partially-completed. That's not a problem, but it just makes it a bit more specific than we had it in the past, thus reducing the pool of interested people. Which, at this point, may not matter.

If this were the case, then the rear mount plate on the subframe could be located to the ideal axle angle, ground clearance and hood clearance. The onus would be on the end-user to weld in the mount brackets for the side mounts on their own.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:39 AM   #8
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I would love the provisions for a J engine already on it, but would also love it, if it had the standard mounting provisions as well. Not sure if it's entirely possible.
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Old 05-14-2018, 01:46 PM   #9
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I think someone should develop a full chassis rigidity package for the CB. Chassis design has come a long way in 30 years. Just kind of a bummer it's sooooooooo heavy.
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Old 05-14-2018, 09:35 PM   #10
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I'm still salivating from reading this post the first time yesterday. Unfortunately I will be buying a house within the next six months, then student loans need to go away before anything fun can happen to the wagon. If something like this were available in 1.5 years or so, I'm sure I would scoop one up without hesitation. I'm not planning anything crazy with the wagon so a factory rear mount location would be ideal for me.
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Old 05-15-2018, 05:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
I think someone should develop a full chassis rigidity package for the CB. Chassis design has come a long way in 30 years. Just kind of a bummer it's sooooooooo heavy.
By today’s standards, the CB is a lightweight! It’s heavy compared to 90s Civics, but it’s got the new CTR beat by about 200lbs. Stiffen the chassis, up the power, put that power to the ground, and the CB is no slouch.

If this subframe would allow the mounting of a J series both further back and lower, it would solve the only two complaints I have about a J swap! Current J swaps result in a nose-heavy car and the need for either a hideously modified hood or a weather-unfriendly cutout.
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Old 05-15-2018, 06:25 PM   #12
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My only concern is price. $1500 USD is a lot when the benefits are not that substantial. Plus you won't find more than 5 people who want to do a J swap, and maybe only 1 person who will commit to it. And what's the cost to ship outside the US, another $300?
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Old 05-15-2018, 07:16 PM   #13
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A tubular subframe would allow mounting of a different steering rack. Quicker steering in a CB should make it even more fun to drive

There are also some suspension geometry changes that can be made, if anyone wants to do the footwork to find out what that is...Is domesticated still around? I'm pretty sure he could say for sure.
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Old 05-16-2018, 12:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
I think someone should develop a full chassis rigidity package for the CB. Chassis design has come a long way in 30 years. Just kind of a bummer it's sooooooooo heavy.
I'm having trouble finding people to sign on for a part that could end up around $1100-1200/each with a handful of guys, so I don't think a chassis fabricator is signing on to fully go over a 25 year-old car anytime soon.

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My only concern is price. $1500 USD is a lot when the benefits are not that substantial. Plus you won't find more than 5 people who want to do a J swap, and maybe only 1 person who will commit to it. And what's the cost to ship outside the US, another $300?
I would argue that the benefits are fairly substantial, if you're looking in the right place. It won't show up on a dyno chart, and it's not obvious enough to win you any show points. And while the J and K guys are the ones that would see a fitment benefit, anyone with an F or H could also see the benefit in weight reduction and the massive gain in rigidity. Not to mention that they might also have other remote-mounted turbo options available to them. If you want to keep A/C and a full radiator, but still run a large turbo, then why not set it behind the engine above the halfshaft? A traditional header could be used, along with an up-pipe to the turbo, and a dump straight back from there. Will anyone do that? Probably not.

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A tubular subframe would allow mounting of a different steering rack. Quicker steering in a CB should make it even more fun to drive

There are also some suspension geometry changes that can be made, if anyone wants to do the footwork to find out what that is...Is domesticated still around? I'm pretty sure he could say for sure.
I think that's getting more complicated than I'm wanting for this project. If it were just me, I'd take them a set of '04-'08 TL front lower control arms, have them modify the anchor point on the subframe to accommodate them, and do away with the front traction bar entirely. So when I change the steering rack, I'm telling people that are spending $xxxx on this to then spend a bit more on a new steering rack that they won't have a core for.

If I do end up with no one else, then I do have my '03 Acura 3.2CL-S steering rack to go in it.
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Old 05-16-2018, 09:37 PM   #15
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If nothing else, something that could be corrected with any lower control arm option is front wheel camber. If a drop of 2" on a factory setup is assumed, and the would-be angle is corrected by relocating the lower control arm mounting point lower, then it could be returned to a neutral point for each person to make changes as they see fit for their setup. It would also help to correct the geometry that's lost when the upper control arm begins to sit at a higher angle.
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Old 05-17-2018, 12:43 AM   #16
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:bang:

just wanted to throw this out there---- I can make them!
I have a few years fabricating things and own a fab shop.
i already have a jig for the tractions bars and torque mounts...
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Old 05-17-2018, 05:43 PM   #17
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any provisions for running a manual rack from another car? what makes you want to run the cl rack?
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:39 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamin_jacob View Post
just wanted to throw this out there---- I can make them!
I have a few years fabricating things and own a fab shop.
i already have a jig for the tractions bars and torque mounts...
Making them is not terribly difficult. It's fabricating them with a knowledge of chassis design and being able to cleanly and thoroughly weld chromoly, as well as have the provisions to make other changes that's key. If you can do that, great! I'd love to see you work.

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any provisions for running a manual rack from another car? what makes you want to run the cl rack?
I've not looked around for other manual racks, nor do I think I'd truly want one. The power rack with the EHPS pump is enough for me.

I just happen to have a spare CL-S rack sitting around from when I wrecked my first CLS6. It's a quicker ratio than the CL-P, and even quicker than the CB.
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Old 05-17-2018, 07:52 PM   #19
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oo ok sweet. i need to finish mount my ehps pump and ill be set.
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