Building an h22 with an f22 block?

[deevergote]

Oscar saying it can be done, and done successfully, can be backed up by his own experiences, and that of people he knows.

However, Maple could also say it's safe to bang craigslist strippers on a regular basis, using the fact that he's still alive as proof.


The things I addressed in my first response (and the dozens of others on this subject) should still be taken into consideration when this project is attempted... and reliability will depend LARGELY on the builder's experience, focus, choice of parts, and well... dumb luck.

[PR CB7]

currently has of today there is a running setup f23 block 87mm k24 pistons
mr.cd5 in honda society

im sorry that i have no actual online proof, but the pt block can be bored to that size, and i would trust any reputable machine shop to do it

i still respect the forum and its members, but as time and time passes, im able to understand that being a reputable member takes time, the more time you spend behind behind a screen, the less and less time for anything else

there, is a world out there, just because wes was making a torque plate to bore his block doesnt mean that without one it cant be done or it wont last

to the person that taught me how to build a g22, i was the first one that told him it couldnt be done, i was the first one that told him that 5speed swaping an CB wouldnt work right, i was the first one that told him a stock junkyard f22 would not hold a 125shot
this was in early 06 i was fully brainwashed by cb7t, and in every situation a was left looking like a fool

when it comes to racing the word doesnt work, doenst exist, with the right amount of money and knowledge can do wonders, you dont need to have a Harvard degree either

mike you'll see the 87mm f when you come down here

[deevergote]

Oscar, you're so hellbent on arguing with me every time someone asks this question that I don't think you bother understanding my point. If you're so convinced that this forum is "brainwashing" people, then maybe you should move on. Back in 06, it was more than just this forum's belief that certain things couldn't be done. People learn. People try new things. Those people don't say "how do i do dis 2 my car yo?" They research. They experiment. They take risks... but calculated risks based on previous knowledge (knowledge likely gained not from a crazy custom swap, but by doing a simple stock rebuild to learn the engine.)

So point #1 - if someone asks "can I do this", my first response is "no, because..." and I tell them my reasons, which are sound reasons. If they have the knowledge to argue, then perhaps they have the knowledge to make it work. However, for all the years I've been saying "no", not a single one of those people had the knowledge to argue with me. They leave that to you.

Point #2 - We're talking about the 85mm F22A block, not the 86mm F23A block. Would an F22A and an F23A each bored out to 87mm still have the same amount of strong iron remaining? I don't know the answer. Perhaps you do.
If the answer is no, then your bragging about someone else's F23A is absolutely invalid... because it has NO bearing whatsoever on this guy's question.

Point #3 - Unless the OP specifies that he's building a race car, I always assume he is building a daily driver. A car that he relies on. Given that, I feel that it's wise to advise someone not to do something that leaves very little margin for error. "Some guy you know did it, and it works". Awesome. Can this kid do it to his daily driver? Even with practically no experience? Is it going to last as his daily driver for the next 2-3 years?
Personally... I doubt it.
If it was clearly a toy... a project car that he's perfectly willing to blow up... then by all means. Rock out with your cock out. But if this dude needs his car to get to work or school, telling him it's safe to do halfassed modifications pushing the engine to the ragged edge (when his level experience, indicated by the very fact that he asked this question, is practically nil...) NOT a good idea.

YOU may not care, but this is MY forum. I'M not comfortable with the idea of someone being misled and doing damage to their car because of what is said here.
I'm also not a fan of being insulted on my forum. If you want to have a discussion, even for the millionth time, that's fine. But if insults are what you're choosing to bring to the table, you are no longer welcome here.

[PR CB7]

This will be the last time I address this subject, since it tends to put people in a questionable mood

In now way whatsoever Im trying to insulting you mike, this is your forum and its your playground, i too would feel the same way if i kept seeing this

People will keep asking and there's nothing you can do about it, but I think than rather than just shooting down someone because the question sounds very irrational and stupid, its easier answering that question with actual facts instead of the " because it sounds stupid and it doesnt work you're an idot

you have been doing this for a lot longer than i have, and again this is YOUR forum

[deevergote]

Have you bothered reading my replies? I say far more than "it doesn't work and you're stupid". I give a number of valid reasons why it is a bad idea. Your arguments usually consist of no more than your own limited personal experiences, and those of people you know.
I'd have more respect for your replies if you offered strong factual evidence to contradict my own statements (and can prove that doing the things necessary to compensate for the issues I mention can be done for less than the cost of a full H22A...)
You seem to be fixated on the one time I said "it's a fucking stupid idea. don't do it". Once. And I followed that comment up in later posts with plenty of facts.

I don't mind discussing, even after this. I just don't appreciate the suggestion that this forum "brainwashes" people into thinking certain things are impossible. In fact, it's quite the opposite. This forum encourages independent thought, rather than inspiring halfassed projects based on "muh boi did it n it wurks!"


The minute someone can offer an intelligent argument against my claims as to why such a swap is a bad idea is the minute I'll have even the smallest amount of faith in their ability to possibly pull it off. Until then, I'm keeping people from getting in over their heads.

[Miho1269]

I guess i should have specified a little more i was planning on using a new h22 crank, rods and f23 pistons in the f block to bring it closer to the h22 bore size i know that you cant bore the f block over 86mm. i was not just planning on slaping an h head on and calling it a night.

[Jarrett]

I still think that your best and cheapest bet would be an H23A1 block from the junkyard. Between that block and an entire blown H22A you'd have everything you need to make a 2.3L DOHC VTEC H-series engine. If you pull out rotating assemblies you're going to need to replace rod and main bearings, have the cylinders bored and any other requisite machine work done. All that comes at a heavy expense.

If you really wanted to go with F23 pistons your compression ratio would be a pathetic 7.XX:1. Even the K20A2 pistons would only put you at 9.7:1. That still means all the other costs of machining, new bearings and rings, pistons and having a cylinder head that doesn't match the block in both bore size and oil passages.

Add something else to your next question that shows you're reading a little bit of the responses that have been given. We all knew exactly what you meant as evident by the content of our posts.

[Jarrett]

OR:

http://omaha.craigslist.org/pts/3376240286.html

http://omaha.craigslist.org/pts/3403150324.html

[PR CB7]

correction the k20a2 piston will give a static comp of 11.5...

[Jarrett]

Its compression height is 1mm lower than an H22A piston. He's talking about pairing it with an H22 crank and rods with a 53.8cc combustion chamber inside an F22 block bored over by 1mm. The math was correct.

[98vtec]

As my as this hybrid has been discussed youd think a sound idea of whats involved could be discerned.

The blueprinting process and measurements necessary for this type of engine arent a "honda" type. Doing this build with factory clearances in mind means you will need to keep the rpm down and possibly hinder the engine from revving where it wants to.

No, building an engine, properly, does not require an engineering degree but it does take common sense, a feel for whats right, and a full understanding of how an engine works. Not to mention being mechanically inclined. You cant just "thats close enough" and slap it together........unless you like wasting money.

Just use a h23 or pre-98 h22 block. Way less headache.

[Miho1269]

I love how it says this right above the beginners section This is where the new members start out. In here NO question is stupid. Ask away!
Funny i sure was made to feel like a complete jack ass for asking my question. I did do some research and all i came up with was people asking if an h22 head would work on an f22 block. I have read about the possibility for hot spots because of the bore size and i have read about the bad compression. Ive also read where several people stated that the f series internals would not hold up to the high revs that the h head needs to make decent power. Sometimes you get fed up with being lead to forum after forum of people asking if the "g22" is possible and getting flammed for asking and maybe if your lucky coming across a useful piece of information. All i was trying to do was ask a direct question and get a direct answer. I realize that i failed and could have been more detailed when asking but saying i dont have what it takes to do it just because i asked is out of line IMO

[98vtec]

The way deev sees things, if you have to post about something, that makes you in capable and shouldnt attempt it.

Hell if i listened to him, i would have never had the first ever 11 sec all motor 5th gen prelude and i definitely would have never been the fastest documented all motor prelude. If these posts from these guys put doubt in your head, then you may not be ready to tackle this. If it motivates you even more, then get to work and be prepared for the worst.

[Loviotor]

I love how it says this right above the beginners section This is where the new members start out. In here NO question is stupid. Ask away!

That is exactly what this forum is for... However, common sense does come into play and there is a lot of information regarding what you asked if you actually search and read the information included in the posts regarding swaps.

Funny i sure was made to feel like a complete jack ass for asking my question. I did do some research and all i came up with was people asking if an h22 head would work on an f22 block. I have read about the possibility for hot spots because of the bore size and i have read about the bad compression. Ive also read where several people stated that the f series internals would not hold up to the high revs that the h head needs to make decent power. Sometimes you get fed up with being lead to forum after forum of people asking if the "g22" is possible and getting flammed for asking and maybe if your lucky coming across a useful piece of information. All i was trying to do was ask a direct question and get a direct answer. I realize that i failed and could have been more detailed when asking but saying i dont have what it takes to do it just because i asked is out of line IMO

I read through every post in your thread, and don't understand why you would feel like a jackass for the answers that people gave you... They're trying to be helpful and answer your question as fully as possible.

Just doing a cursory search and looking through the threads it brought up, I came across these:
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=194935
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=194365

and this gem about Frankenstein builds:
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=187140

[Miho1269]

The way deev sees things, if you have to post about something, that makes you in capable and shouldnt attempt it.

Hell if i listened to him, i would have never had the first ever 11 sec all motor 5th gen prelude and i definitely would have never been the fastest documented all motor prelude. If these posts from these guys put doubt in your head, then you may not be ready to tackle this. If it motivates you even more, then get to work and be prepared for the worst.

Guess i didnt think about it like that. its not that it puts doubt in my head its just the fact that he thinks i cant do it just because i had to ask, i know he doesnt know me or know that ive built my fair share of d series. i just dont know jack about F or H motor so thats why i ask.