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    #46
    not to go
    but I think VW and Honda designed their cars around their buyers (or what they expect their buyers to be).

    VW dub guys want that nice interior, quiet car and the Si crowd is more of a mechanical, sporty car sound group.

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      #47
      Probably an apt description. Though I bet the current CSi is not as loud. Actually the direction they took with it shows I'm not crazy.


      Originally posted by lordoja
      im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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        #48
        Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
        Sure they are; they are just opinions you disagree with


        OK then, how do you explain it not being as quiet as a similarly priced VW Rabbit? I did not say the Civic had a lot of engine noise, I was referring to the road noise in that context. However, the Si DID have excessive engine noise as well. Over time all that noise is fatiguing.
        Objective numbers are not debatable. I have already noted that you are entitled to your opinion. You smash VTEC, but then buy a V6 with VTEC like power delivery and talk about how great it is... So whatever.

        As to the second part, I don't have to explain anything. I openly acknowledged that it had a road noise problem in ALL trims (not just the Si). However, road noise is NOT the same as sounding "labored" or whatever else B.S. term it was you used. As for excessive engine noise on the highway, I am saying with absolute fact that you couldn't hear the engine over the road noise on the highway. I am speaking from 100K miles of direct ownership over 8 years. You are speaking from a test drive. So while you may want to think your opinion is equal, it is not. My experience trumps yours, but it always amazes me how you want to discount experience unless it is your own.

        In the end, it doesn't matter if you like the Si or whether you would buy one. Your assertions about its capability in traffic, its highway demeanor and its drivability are patently false. Not only did it sound BETTER than the R18, but it had more power and torque at every RPM in the rev range and was substantially faster. It never did "struggle" to keep up with traffic, and it came with a VERY marginal increase in ride penalty and road noise for a big increase in handling. Out of VTEC, there was just a tiny bit of exhaust noise, but it was far from annoying. Like I said, it was marginally louder than what is on my Accord V6 and that is far from a rice rocket. You can subjectively say you don't like exhaust noise, but honestly, I found it no more annoying than any manner of gurgling Nissan V6's.

        As for why Honda did that and VW didn't? My guess would be that Honda customers were looking for something else. Different strokes for different folks, as they say.

        But, back to the original topic, the last versions of the J series are fantastic engines. The new turbo engines will need ZERO excuses in terms of torque, but they still manage to wind out fairly well. That said, they are not as smooth as the J series, they do not have the flexibility of the J series and they do not sound as good.
        Last edited by owequitit; 02-21-2018, 04:25 PM.
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          #49
          Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
          Probably an apt description. Though I bet the current CSi is not as loud. Actually the direction they took with it shows I'm not crazy.
          The new Civic in general is much quieter and road noise has long been an issue with Hondas. But that isn't the same as powertrain noise and we both know it. As to whether or not you are crazy, consider that earlier this year the less than 6 month old Si had lease deals for $199 a month, which is less than I was able to get for my 2009 Si almost 10 years ago in the worst economic downturn in decades... Probably pretty fair to say that Honda missed the mark with it. In fact, it is so far off the mark of what an Si should be that I would rather have a GTI at this point.

          But it isn't just the noise. It is the entire powertrain. The rest of the car is solid.
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            #50
            Originally posted by deevergote View Post
            I think the claim that you have to rev the hell out of a small 4 cyl Honda (or pretty much any other small 4) to accelerate fast enough to be safe or practical is usually made by folks that don’t know any better. Most probably just regurgitate what they read or hear from others.
            My 117hp Fit with its little 1.5L engine could make its way into and through NJ traffic with ease... and 80+ mph highway speeds are very common here. It was no powerhouse, but I never once feared getting rear-ended because I was waiting for it to climb into higher rpms.


            That being said, I truly like the 3.0 in my 05 Accord. It definitely has a certain personality that I imagine wouldn’t be present in a turbo engine (which will have its own personality. Maybe equally pleasing, maybe better, maybe worse.)
            The Honda Fit was the scariest car I've ever driven on a highway. I've never driven such a slow car. I had to completely rethink my style of driving to accommodate the lack of power, but you're right - it could certainly hold 80mph all day, it just took a week to get there.

            Great car in town though and I still love the interior design lol
            14 Ford Focus ST - stock(ish) - E30 Tune + Green Filter =

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              #51
              Originally posted by owequitit View Post
              The new Civic in general is much quieter and road noise has long been an issue with Hondas. But that isn't the same as powertrain noise and we both know it. As to whether or not you are crazy, consider that earlier this year the less than 6 month old Si had lease deals for $199 a month, which is less than I was able to get for my 2009 Si almost 10 years ago in the worst economic downturn in decades... Probably pretty fair to say that Honda missed the mark with it. In fact, it is so far off the mark of what an Si should be that I would rather have a GTI at this point.

              But it isn't just the noise. It is the entire powertrain. The rest of the car is solid.
              My buddy just purchased a delicious 2017 Civic Sport Touring which is a fantastic looking and driving car. Sadly it's a CVT, but that's no bother - Honda developed a great transmission.

              That being said, the engine is obtrusive when pushed, a similar trait experience in my test drive of the '17 CR-V. I don't have a great point of reference to compare against the newer Hondas, but I feel like my little Focus is a bit quieter when pushed, even with the engine noise being piped in.

              I could live with this all day, especially in the new CR-V which is the best vehicle in its class and probably price range.
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                #52
                Originally posted by verothacamaro View Post
                The Honda Fit was the scariest car I've ever driven on a highway. I've never driven such a slow car. I had to completely rethink my style of driving to accommodate the lack of power, but you're right - it could certainly hold 80mph all day, it just took a week to get there.

                Great car in town though and I still love the interior design lol
                It's kind of funny when you think about it because it isn't that far out of the ballpark of what a stock CB7 would do...

                But then you consider that my Accord V6 will whomp any M5 prior to the E39 and it isn't terribly far behind that one in some measures! Progress is stupendous.
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                  #53
                  Originally posted by verothacamaro View Post
                  My buddy just purchased a delicious 2017 Civic Sport Touring which is a fantastic looking and driving car. Sadly it's a CVT, but that's no bother - Honda developed a great transmission.

                  That being said, the engine is obtrusive when pushed, a similar trait experience in my test drive of the '17 CR-V. I don't have a great point of reference to compare against the newer Hondas, but I feel like my little Focus is a bit quieter when pushed, even with the engine noise being piped in.

                  I could live with this all day, especially in the new CR-V which is the best vehicle in its class and probably price range.
                  Yeah, The problem with the 1.5T is many fold, and IMO, Honda was brain dead for not putting a version of the Accord's 2.0T in it. The 1.5T is an adequate engine in a "regular" level car, but does NOT belong in an Si. It doesn't really hit max boost in the real world until about 2500-3000RPM and then by 6000RPM it has fallen completely on its face (real pull is done by about 5500RPM). Running it to its relatively modest redline of 6500 is pointless. Not only does it not pull up there, but it is sounds bad and vibrates a lot. It is ultimately based on the Fit engine afterall, with a long stroke and small bore. Even worse than that though, is that when hooked to an MT in the Si, it feels like it has a 700lb flywheel. It makes the 8th gen Si's rev hang seem completely non-existent. I test drove one in Texas summer heat and it was AWFUL. Didn't really boost below 3K, didn't pull above 5500 and wasn't that strong. I am 100% certain my 8th gen was faster in those conditions, and by quite a bit. The other weird thing was that the clutch was ridiculously light and the shifter felt like a game console. It wasn't bad, you just couldn't feel much through either of them.

                  However, had they put even a detuned version of the 2.0T in it, it would probably be the hottest seller in segment. It is extremely refined, has probably the best in class chassis, standard LSD and good feature content. The styling is a bit boy racer, but at least in Si form, it isn't too bad, and the car actually looks really good in blue and white. The 2.0T even in smaller turbo Accord form is a real wolf in sheep's clothing and I think it would have served to put the Civic Si into the turbo era the way it needed to be. As it was, the 1.5T was a really big disappointment in that car.
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                    #54
                    Honda probably feared an Si with a detuned CTR engine would cannibalize CTR sales to the point of extinction. While the CTR would likely have a ton of other improvements, people would probably be more willing to plunk down Si money and plan on upgrading parts in the future.
                    Just like the ITR having an engine that was a fairly significant upgrade over the GSR. With a 1.5L Si, you’d need to swap engines to be anywhere near CTR level.

                    Honda swaps are going to be quite fun in a few years, when the 2.0t gets affordable on the used market!






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                      #55
                      ^ HASport's already on it. Look up VTEC Academy on YouTube. Brian bought a CTR just to take the engine out and check fitment in a bunch of different chassis. I think there was mention of the Accord motor being made available as a crate engine.
                      Last edited by CyborgGT; 02-22-2018, 05:42 AM.

                      Accord Aero-R

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                        #56
                        Things will really take off if they replace the J35 with the 2.0T across the board. It's already going into the next RDX... I'm sure it will be going into the next Odyssey, Pilot, ILX and TLX too.

                        The L15 is just too damn undersquare, as it should be for efficiency I guess. That combined with the ridiculous stock boost (20-22 PSI!!!) really limit its appeal. It's going to need a new turbo and cams to breathe like a Honda... at which point you might as well do a 2.0T swap.

                        I'm also wondering if they will make a swap kit for the good old K24. Hell, the J35 too while they're at it. Always wondered why nobody ever made a J to K transmission adapter kit... they spin the same way


                        Originally posted by lordoja
                        im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral

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                          #57
                          That's why I am eyeing a 10th gen 2.0T sport.

                          Haven't heard anything bad about them yet, though they have only been on the road for a bit.

                          I got my current EX over a sport because the 9th gen sport was a weird hodge podge of features, and did not include a sunroof which I prefer, and no PTS.

                          The 10th gen Sport is based on the EX, and is appropriately loaded. Except for the Touring, which has a shit load more features, its not missing anything that I would lose sleep over, has a good platform to mod, and the interior is just amazing.

                          I don't love the rear end, but it looks way better in person than in pictures.

                          I have not driven one yet, but I am sure id like it.

                          My only issue is that I was really wanting a 6spd, but my wife needs access to the car when I need to haul kids around, and so ill probably just go with the 10AT which is a bit faster anyway.

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                            #58
                            Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                            Honda probably feared an Si with a detuned CTR engine would cannibalize CTR sales to the point of extinction. While the CTR would likely have a ton of other improvements, people would probably be more willing to plunk down Si money and plan on upgrading parts in the future.
                            Just like the ITR having an engine that was a fairly significant upgrade over the GSR. With a 1.5L Si, you’d need to swap engines to be anywhere near CTR level.

                            Honda swaps are going to be quite fun in a few years, when the 2.0t gets affordable on the used market!
                            That is one theory, the other is cost. I don't know why they did it, but the 2.0T in the Accord uses a much smaller turbo and a few other things are changed, so I don't know that it would have been the case. It needs a pretty hefty increase in tuning in order to even get close to the Type-R's unit, which is still stock at that point. Maybe it had more to do with the Type-R also being FWD vs AWD, so Honda didn't have the leeway like Ford did with the RS and VW does with the GTI vs Golf R (the GTI which can essentially match Golf R power with a few key mods).

                            In any case, in stock form, the Accord's version of the 2.0T is putting down a good ~50HP less and like 40 lb-ft less than the Type-R. It boosts sooner, but doesn't pull as much up top.

                            Rumors from reputable sources say that Honda was having the debate internally and the 1.5T guys won out, which is unfortunate. I think Honda did it because they didn't want to have to charge too much for the 2.0T, which in the Accord is exactly $2K more expensive in any trim.
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                              #59
                              Originally posted by gloryaccordy View Post
                              Things will really take off if they replace the J35 with the 2.0T across the board. It's already going into the next RDX... I'm sure it will be going into the next Odyssey, Pilot, ILX and TLX too.

                              The L15 is just too damn undersquare, as it should be for efficiency I guess. That combined with the ridiculous stock boost (20-22 PSI!!!) really limit its appeal. It's going to need a new turbo and cams to breathe like a Honda... at which point you might as well do a 2.0T swap.

                              I'm also wondering if they will make a swap kit for the good old K24. Hell, the J35 too while they're at it. Always wondered why nobody ever made a J to K transmission adapter kit... they spin the same way
                              Hondata and VitViper are doing amazing things with the L15. There's no doubt that it's a really stout engine.

                              Bolt-on (+ aux fuel + slicks) Si is already running 12s at over 110mph which is amazing.

                              I still remember the days when a very powerful DSM would struggle to break mid-13s @ 108mph and the acceleration was borderline violent

                              14 Ford Focus ST - stock(ish) - E30 Tune + Green Filter =

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                                #60
                                Originally posted by owequitit View Post
                                It's kind of funny when you think about it because it isn't that far out of the ballpark of what a stock CB7 would do...

                                But then you consider that my Accord V6 will whomp any M5 prior to the E39 and it isn't terribly far behind that one in some measures! Progress is stupendous.
                                When did you trade up from the Si to an AV6? What year did you end up going with?
                                14 Ford Focus ST - stock(ish) - E30 Tune + Green Filter =

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