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newbie questions about turbo setup.

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    newbie questions about turbo setup.

    Hi!Pardon me guys if i am posting on the wrong section.......i am new here and i still a little lost so flaming suit is on.I am the proud owner of a 1992 honda accord lx coupe.Motor and transmission is all stock....well it has header,msd external coil,msd box,msd wires,adjustable fpr,lowered,rims....the basic amateur upgrades but it feels slow,incredible slow.I come from building rotaries and my other ride is a 600hp monster,i am used 2 power lots of power so i am thinking wondering about turboing the accord with some leftover parts.I can build,weld,modified my own parts but i need help choosing what 2 use.In the rotary world you run huge AR turbos with cold sides from 67mm and up on a daily driven rotary in order 2 make power but so far i read that this turbos are 2 big for the 4 bangers.Engine managment is another thing,i seen so far that you can upgrade factory honda ecus and they will act,run like a standalone unit,how truth is that?So far i have the following parts set aside for the build.
    60-1 big shaft ball bearing turbo with a 1.0 divided 3 inch vclamp outlet.
    Manifold still in the making,trying 2 decided if turbo should be mounted on top or on the bottom.
    40mm hks wastegate.
    4 1000cc low z injectors.
    custom fuel rail.
    tial 50mm blv
    ebay front mount
    feed and drain lines for turbo
    new act clutch
    flywheel
    lsd
    and some other stuff.
    So what EMS do you guys like,use or is highly recommended.I have a LT8S with Xbox from another rx7 that i can get reflash and run in the accord,anybody runs MICROTECH in here.
    Well that is for now but i do have a bunch off other questions.

    #2
    You're in the right section.

    Most of that MSD stuff is completely worthless. The stock ignition system has been known to work just fine to well over 500hp.

    Anyway, for turbo size ideas, check out the thread in the Forced Induction section of this site. There's a thread that lists the top 10 turbo CB7s in terms of horsepower. Check out those cars and see what they're running. You'll get a good idea of what you should be looking for.

    The first thing you're going to want to look at is forged pistons. The stock pistons will give even under low boost. They're 20 years old, and they're not made for the heat and pressure of turbo... so you WILL break a ringland. Forged pistons are a must.
    The block is open deck, so the sleeves are your next weakness after the pistons. The stock sleeves can hold a fair amount of power, but I wouldn't push more than 300whp or so on stock sleeves and expect them to hold for long. (honestly, I wouldn't push more than 300whp on a FWD car anyway... but that's just me. I like traction.)
    Everything else you listed should work fine. The injectors may be a bit large, unless you're going for a lot of power, and the fuel rail may be unnecessary... but neither is bad.
    If you want a cheap manifold option, you can use a manifold from a DSM. You only need to drill out the mounting holes a bit.

    As for EMS, it's really up to you. Just about any system, be it aftermarket or modified stock ECU, is capable of handling the needs of most amateur street-driven builds. Most of the guys here seem to use a modified P06 ECU (92-95 non-VTEC Civic) for the F22A and any non-VTEC swaps, and a modified P28 (92-95 VTEC Civic) for the H22A and other VTEC swaps. Most use Crome, eCtune, or Uberdata (the oldschool tuners, anyway...)
    A few others run Hondata.

    If you have a system that you're familiar with, and you can make it work on the Accord... then go for it.



    What's your other car? FC, FD, or something swapped?






    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by deevergote View Post
      You're in the right section.

      Most of that MSD stuff is completely worthless. The stock ignition system has been known to work just fine to well over 500hp.

      Anyway, for turbo size ideas, check out the thread in the Forced Induction section of this site. There's a thread that lists the top 10 turbo CB7s in terms of horsepower. Check out those cars and see what they're running. You'll get a good idea of what you should be looking for.

      The first thing you're going to want to look at is forged pistons. The stock pistons will give even under low boost. They're 20 years old, and they're not made for the heat and pressure of turbo... so you WILL break a ringland. Forged pistons are a must.
      The block is open deck, so the sleeves are your next weakness after the pistons. The stock sleeves can hold a fair amount of power, but I wouldn't push more than 300whp or so on stock sleeves and expect them to hold for long. (honestly, I wouldn't push more than 300whp on a FWD car anyway... but that's just me. I like traction.)
      Everything else you listed should work fine. The injectors may be a bit large, unless you're going for a lot of power, and the fuel rail may be unnecessary... but neither is bad.
      If you want a cheap manifold option, you can use a manifold from a DSM. You only need to drill out the mounting holes a bit.

      As for EMS, it's really up to you. Just about any system, be it aftermarket or modified stock ECU, is capable of handling the needs of most amateur street-driven builds. Most of the guys here seem to use a modified P06 ECU (92-95 non-VTEC Civic) for the F22A and any non-VTEC swaps, and a modified P28 (92-95 VTEC Civic) for the H22A and other VTEC swaps. Most use Crome, eCtune, or Uberdata (the oldschool tuners, anyway...)
      A few others run Hondata.

      If you have a system that you're familiar with, and you can make it work on the Accord... then go for it.



      What's your other car? FC, FD, or something swapped?
      Okay so forged pistons,sleeves and maybe a better thicker head gasket to lower a little the compression and it should be strong enough?I have a 95 white fd mostly stock and a 1987 turbo 2 with a cosmo re full bridge with a 90mm.

      Comment


        #4
        Why would you need a thicker head gasket to lower compression? You're already replacing the internals! If you get stock-spec internals, you're already at 8.8:1

        Nice... so best of both worlds with the RX7s! I love those things... almost bought an FC convertible, but passed when I saw the crappy paintjob. Someday, I'd love one for a project.






        Comment


          #5
          thanks

          Originally posted by deevergote View Post
          Why would you need a thicker head gasket to lower compression? You're already replacing the internals! If you get stock-spec internals, you're already at 8.8:1

          Nice... so best of both worlds with the RX7s! I love those things... almost bought an FC convertible, but passed when I saw the crappy paintjob. Someday, I'd love one for a project.
          I am learning little by little about building a piston engine...........so stock head gasket and good.RX7s are fun but if you start messing around with swapping turbos and running more boost without any supporting mods you are in some deep trouble.This engines wont take any detonation at all.............they love fuellllllll and with this prices i cant afford daily driving them.lol

          Comment


            #6
            Yeah, that's why I wouldn't want one for anything but a project. Thirsty in stock form, worse when modded... and just about any one I buy now would either need major rebuilding, or it'd come with a hefty pricetag for already being rebuilt.
            Rotaries are magic, though!

            But yeah, stock head gasket (or upgraded to a stronger MLS gasket... but no need for thinner.) As I said, look through the big builds in the FI section. Those guys (for the most part) are doing it right. I think the guy making the most power (600something) is on stock sleeves, but that's not a risk i'd take, personally.

            How much power are you pushing for?






            Comment


              #7
              Welcome to the site! The accord on a whole is a descent platform, but it is no Rx7 by any means. The main benefit these car have is they are rather common, so second hand parts are relatively easy to come by compared to an Rx7. I went from an 85 FB GS to the CB, so I can relate to the transition between driving a rotary and going to pistons. These cars stock have all their power down low to make torque since they are grocery getters. Since you have a 92 lx, the cam dies off early, and the factory exhaust ends up being a bottle neck (although you have an upgraded header from the sounds of it). Also the transmission is geared rather long for economy and that probably doesn't help the situation much in its current state. Now if you were to go boosted, the longer gearing can actually end up being an advantage.

              Since you have the Rx7's, I really wouldn't go too balls the wall with modifying the accord, unless using it as a learning experience. The accord is a 'luxury car', keep that in mind as your modifying it, as there is nothing that says you can't be extremely comfortable and go fast 'sleeper'

              Slap a big enough turbo on the accord, and you will have more power than you can put to the ground. All the video's I've seen of cb's at the track, they are struggling for traction even with race slicks for those first 60ft.

              The most common engine management systems for our cars, are like what deev said, they're civic / integra ecu's (p06, p28) that have been physically modified, and possibly supporting hardware added (like a real time programmer). There are two main programming systems for those ecu's, one is made by Moates called Ostrich or Demon, and then there is Hondata. The Moates hardware can be thought as 'open source', and like deev said there are several different applications available. The one currently deemed best, due to continued support by the developer on the 'open source' side of things would be Neptune. In the end it would be best to check with the Tuner as to what system they are comfortable with.
              Last edited by cloudasc; 09-27-2013, 01:19 AM.
              PT3/6 Development Thread | My 1991 LX Coupe | DIY: 90-93 Tcu Fix

              Comment


                #8
                thanks

                Originally posted by cloudasc View Post
                Welcome to the site! The accord on a whole is a descent platform, but it is no Rx7 by any means. The main benefit these car have is they are rather common, so second hand parts are relatively easy to come by compared to an Rx7. I went from an 85 FB GS to the CB, so I can relate to the transition between driving a rotary and going to pistons. These cars stock have all their power down low to make torque since they are grocery getters. Since you have a 92 lx, the cam dies off early, and the factory exhaust ends up being a bottle neck (although you have an upgraded header from the sounds of it). Also the transmission is geared rather long for economy and that probably doesn't help the situation much in its current state. Now if you were to go boosted, the longer gearing can actually end up being an advantage.

                Since you have the Rx7's, I really wouldn't go too balls the wall with modifying the accord, unless using it as a learning experience. The accord is a 'luxury car', keep that in mind as your modifying it, as there is nothing that says you can't be extremely comfortable and go fast 'sleeper'

                Slap a big enough turbo on the accord, and you will have more power than you can put to the ground. All the video's I've seen of cb's at the track, they are struggling for traction even with race slicks for those first 60ft.

                The most common engine management systems for our cars, are like what deev said, they're civic / integra ecu's (p06, p28) that have been physically modified, and possibly supporting hardware added (like a real time programmer). There are two main programming systems for those ecu's, one is made by Moates called Ostrich or Demon, and then there is Hondata. The Moates hardware can be thought as 'open source', and like deev said there are several different applications available. The one currently deemed best, due to continued support by the developer on the 'open source' side of things would be Neptune. In the end it would be best to check with the Tuner as to what system they are comfortable with.
                I dont want a billion hp i just want maybe around 260.Something around that will make the car feel like a beast.I know that the accord is a luxury car and i love it!It has room,my legs arent jammed,it rides great and i dont smell like fuel anymore after going for a ride!My main issue is that all the torque is down low and it wont keep pulling after reaching high rpms(i know is the dam rx7 thing)so i just want decent power.EMS i am thinking on using the MICROTECH so that way i can do the tunning myself!Thanks guys you are awesome!

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by joeyfc3s View Post
                  I dont want a billion hp i just want maybe around 260.Something around that will make the car feel like a beast.I know that the accord is a luxury car and i love it!It has room,my legs arent jammed,it rides great and i dont smell like fuel anymore after going for a ride!My main issue is that all the torque is down low and it wont keep pulling after reaching high rpms(i know is the dam rx7 thing)so i just want decent power.EMS i am thinking on using the MICROTECH so that way i can do the tunning myself!Thanks guys you are awesome!
                  Sounds like a modified H22 will do the trick for you here also for that HP goal; rather than a all-out turbo project. The H really pulls hard in VTEC when in the higher RPMs whre the F does not. But to reach around the 300 mark you would need to go turbo .

                  Comment


                    #10
                    okay

                    Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                    Sounds like a modified H22 will do the trick for you here also for that HP goal; rather than a all-out turbo project. The H really pulls hard in VTEC when in the higher RPMs where the F does not. But to reach around the 300 mark you would need to go turbo .
                    I have been looking into 2 H swap but then i have 2 get the motor rebuilt it(i wont boost any motor without a proper rebuilt)plus cost of turbo swap ect ect ect and by then the wife will kill me!My friends has a modified H22 accord and it does pull hard,is no joke.

                    Well i am gonna start taking the old header and stuff off,finish building the manifold,mock everything up.....well maybe install finish the whole turbo conversion and then after it drives and all the fab work is done drop in the new motor.Going thru my left over parts i did found a 90mm hogans throttle body and a 044 bosch pump the question is can i use the tbody or is 2 big,i now the pump is fine 2 use i can always adjust fuel pressure and control fuel with the EMS.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Once you reach 250whp N/A with any H or F engine, you've reached the limits of comfortable drivability. Put some forged pistons into the stock sleeves, install a medium sized turbo (large enough that you don't blowtorch your valves, small enough that you start making power around 3000rpm), and tune it well... you'll have 250-300whp that you'll actually be able to use. Tune it properly, and drive it carefully, and you might even be able to keep the Accord's fuel economy. A friend of mine had a boosted CB7 making over 250whp, and when driven out of boost, he was getting 30mpg.






                      Comment


                        #12
                        For high power your going to need a 3 row half rad for better cooling to fit a large turbo, or a small turbo for that matter. AC will also need to be deleted unless you have a bisimoto header designed to keep AC.

                        Small turbos create too much head and that will wear your engine down fast.

                        If you plan on keeping stock sleeves you can send in your block to a CNc company ( can't recall the name right now) to custom fit your block with a blockguard with 100% fitment. They run stock sleeve d16 with turbos in the 8 sec 1/4 miles

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by MrMagnificent View Post
                          For high power your going to need a 3 row half rad for better cooling to fit a large turbo, or a small turbo for that matter. AC will also need to be deleted unless you have a bisimoto header designed to keep AC.

                          Small turbos create too much head and that will wear your engine down fast.

                          If you plan on keeping stock sleeves you can send in your block to a CNc company ( can't recall the name right now) to custom fit your block with a blockguard with 100% fitment. They run stock sleeve d16 with turbos in the 8 sec 1/4 miles
                          You don't need a 3 row half radiator.
                          You don't need a Bisimoto header to keep A/C, (The Downpipe is the issue, not the header, And it can be fabricated to clear the A/C)
                          Why would you need a block guard if you fit full sleeves, Blockguards create hotspots.


                          Car Safety / General Servicing Checks --------Basic suspension checks

                          My 5.7 LS1 Holden Ute

                          A "Finished" project car is never finished until its been sold.

                          If at first you don't succeed, Try again. Don't give up too easily, persistance pays off in the end.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by evil_demon_01 View Post
                            You don't need a 3 row half radiator.
                            You don't need a Bisimoto header to keep A/C, (The Downpipe is the issue, not the header, And it can be fabricated to clear the A/C)
                            Why would you need a block guard if you fit full sleeves, Blockguards create hotspots.
                            You need a higher effiency rad if you fit the cnc'd blockguard because it does limit flow of coolant.

                            The blockguard is a cheaper and effective alternative to fitting new sleeves.

                            The half rad is just to provide more room.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by MrMagnificent View Post
                              You need a higher effiency rad if you fit the cnc'd blockguard because it does limit flow of coolant.

                              The blockguard is a cheaper and effective alternative to fitting new sleeves.

                              The half rad is just to provide more room.
                              Need a high efficiency Radiator - Yes
                              Need Triple core - No
                              Need Half Rad - Yes and No, depending on turbo sizing application.
                              A Civic dual core Aluminium radiator has proven more than effective enough to deal with a typical turbo application on an F22.
                              Last edited by evil_demon_01; 10-04-2013, 04:16 AM.


                              Car Safety / General Servicing Checks --------Basic suspension checks

                              My 5.7 LS1 Holden Ute

                              A "Finished" project car is never finished until its been sold.

                              If at first you don't succeed, Try again. Don't give up too easily, persistance pays off in the end.

                              Comment

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