Delta cam installed now car won't run

[toycar]

Toycar, I think you missed the real point of that post. Yes, you can advance or retard the timing with adjustable came gears, but you can not fix timing that is completely off with adjustable cam gears. In order for adjustable cam gears to do what they were made for correctly, initial timing has to be set properly. Adjustable cam gears were made initially for performance enthusiast that wanted to make adjustments on the fly to suite their needs when it comes to timing, because we know that adjusting your timing in increments can improve power when you need it. Also, cam adjustments can help also, which is why adjustable cam gears come in handy for street/track vehicles

Are you serious right now?



Did you just skip over this post;

Anyone using adjustable cam gears without a degreeing wheel and dial indicator is a retard. I guess I made an assumption here that anyone using adjustable gears knows this.


And, adjustable gears can assist in setting timing and have plenty for me as well as dozens of people I have worked with over the years. How?

Well, set timing without belt tension.

Loosen cam gear(s). Verify cam(s) are still timed correctly after loosening gear(s).


Pull slack around timing gear on snout of crank and h2o pump, verify timing mark is correct, apply tension. As cam gears rotate, like they always do, cam(s) do not move. Belt is tight, crank is still timed correctly, tighten gears and call it a day.


I don't really know whats so hard about that.

And if that doesn't make sense to you, you must have terrible reading comprehension. I guess you just skipped that part. Who knows.

Setting timing with adjustable cam gears is easy as it gets. I think you guys were unaware that you can set timing like this, and it really is outrageously easy- and thats why you are surprised by my response.


Its all good though. I don't run adjustable cam gears most of the time. I only have 2 cars that run them, but they are the only 2 cars I have ever owned that had them. A lot of my buddies have them, and I have been as well as they have been-succsessfully-setting timing like that for atleast 7-8 years. Seriously. Its easy. Do it like I said, and its easy.


Set timing, loosen gears, pull slack out of belt at crank/h2o pump, apply tension, gears rotate but cams do not move, verify crank timing is still correct, tighten cam gears and your done.


Its pretty straight forward. I don't really understand what you aren't comprehending. And please don't respond with "well thats not their intended use" because seriously, you think I don't already know that? It does work just fine though.

[jdm92_accorn]

When use cam gears like that you are just guessing on cam timing. That is why it is incorrect. The easiest way is not always the correct way. As far as the bisimoto header goes, I've tested it back to back against an ebay header with a custom lower section and it really doesn't make much of a differece.
Look here on post 299
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...=95154&page=15.
The engine was low on compression but I think it says enough.

Roughly 2-3hp peak. Below 3k it actually lost some but it really shines above 7k which is about useless on a stock f-series with bolt-ons. Back to the topic at hand though, best way I found is to loosen the idler pulley bolt a little then put the tensioner at its loosest setting. Put the belt on the crank and turn the crank just slightly clockwise since our engines turn ccw. Then make sure the exhaust cam is facing its proper marks and put the belt on, then zip tie the belt to the gear. Next line up the timing marks on the intake cam, put the belt on and zip tie the belt to the gear aswell. Next run the belt along the rest of its route leaving the idler for last. Slip it over it and tighten the idle bolt. Next turn the crank ccw to take slack out of the belt and make sure all your marks are lined up. If all marks are lined up move the tesioner ans tighten components down. Next cut the zip ties and turn the engine two complete rotations to check your marks and to make sure nothing is hitting. Then start the car to make sure it is running properly. If all is good put all the covers, crank pulley and belts back on.

[toycar]

When use cam gears like that you are just guessing on cam timing. That is why it is incorrect. The easiest way is not always the correct way.

How do you figure that you are guessing cam timing?


You set cam timing in place before applying tension to belt. Loosen cam gears, set tension on belt. As tension is absorbed onto belt, gears rotate, but cams do not move. They stay in their original position since you loosened the cam gears prior to applying tension.


I really don't understand where I am losing you guys on this. It is no harder than I am describing. The worst that happens here is the crank can rotate if you don't pull the tension out of the belt correctly. The cam gears do rotate, but if they are timed correctly from square one, they will be spot on afterwards. When you loosen the gears, your cams cannot turn. We agree on that right?


So how do you figure that you are guessing with your cam timing then? If the cam cannot rotate, how do you lose your timing? Please, educate me on this. I read your paragraph about setting timing, and I dont do it your way either and have never used zip ties to help set timing. Im not knocking your approach, but you are acting like its impossible to do it like I am saying. Its very doable. The cams cannot rotate if the gears are loosend. Since the gears can rotate without moving the cams, as long as they are in the correct position from square one you are good to go.


Please explain to me how/why you are "guessing" at cam timing if you set it correctly BEFORE you loosen the gears? The gears rotating has nothing to do with cam timing with adjustable gears. So, I am curious how you come to this conclusion. I have done this a dozen times at least, and it was perfect every single time with the exception of the crank rotating from not pulling the belt correctly.

So, honest. Why exactly are you assuming I am wrong? Have you ever done this? I have, a dozen times at least. The belt moves what, 1/2-1 inch or so when you apply tension. Adjustable gears can rotate that much without affecting the cam position. Do you have an adjustable gear to go test my approach with? It does work, and I cannot believe you guys are suggesting it doesn't. Thats just silly.


No guess work about it at all. Its right 100% of the time, with the exception of the crank coming out of time. Usually doesn't happen though.



On an accord with 40 teeth on the cam gear, each tooth = what, 9 degrees of timing?


AEM adjustable gears go from -10 to +10


Easily absorbs the rotation of the tension of the belt.


And for cam timing with normal gears on a 4g63(never done DOHC timing on honda) you just rotate a tooth clockwise on the exhaust side, and on the intake side, and retard the crank so they all align when belt tension is applied. I've never used zip ties or anything of the sort, and doing it this way is a bit tricky but it does follow the service manual to the T.

[jdm92_accorn]

If you are not using a degree wheel and dial indicators then you are eyeballing it which where I'm from is NOT a unit of measurement. So you by definition are guessing. Secondly, yes it is probably way easier to line the marks up with the gear having no tension from the cam lobes against the pressure of the valve spring. So then I'm guessing you are setting the gears back to zero once the tesioner is tightened down and everything is in its place. But since you didn't say that so I can only assume that's what you meant. But there is still no guarantee the marks are exactly where they're supposed to be without the proper measuring tools. Plus 1ş cam is 2ş crank which is what matters the most, cam synchronisation with the crank. I've been doing timing belts on everything from dodge minivans to Mitsubishi 3000GT's for over 15years. The way I do it has been the most efficient way I know of.

[Mishakol129]

If you are not using a degree wheel and dial indicators then you are eyeballing it which where I'm from is NOT a unit of measurement. So you by definition are guessing. Secondly, yes it is probably way easier to line the marks up with the gear having no tension from the cam lobes against the pressure of the valve spring. So then I'm guessing you are setting the gears back to zero once the tesioner is tightened down and everything is in its place. But since you didn't say that so I can only assume that's what you meant. But there is still no guarantee the marks are exactly where they're supposed to be without the proper measuring tools. Plus 1ş cam is 2ş crank which is what matters the most, cam synchronisation with the crank. I've been doing timing belts on everything from dodge minivans to Mitsubishi 3000GT's for over 15years. The way I do it has been the most efficient way I know of.

Dude, I am just gonna get the F22a head with a A6 cam in it instead of messing with the dohc f22b head. I have a feeling that you are dead on about the f22a head having better capabilities than the dohc head. I'm just gonna order a rebuilt one online and use that. Not gonna mess with the dohc head anymore, its been interesting but not worth the power. Its heavier than the sohc head and I think it might even be reducing my MPG's. It wasn't even made to fit in my engine bay as there are clearance issues with the valve cover.

I will either sell or return the 260 cams from Delta. No hard feelings. Payed double price for them anyways and I'm not sure they will even work.

Soo, the F22a head with the A6 camshaft is what's going on my F23 bottom end I have sitting on my engine stand. I'm sure I will be happy with the results as you have shown us time and time again with the potential of the F23 block and F22a head. Should I mill the head a little bit though?

Thank you very much for your help.

[jdm92_accorn]

Yeah I'd go for .020"-.035".

[Mishakol129]

Yeah I'd go for .020"-.035".

So then I would need an adj. gear? Someone said that anything above .015" requires one.

Oh and another thing, would you recommend the Bisi stage 1 cam or the Delta 260 cam if I ever were to get a cam?

[Mishakol129]

I was reading the original thread from that build you posted and one of the things I see he did wrong was leaving the stock intake manifold and TB on.
He says that it was the stock one. Not a good idea at all that's probably why he lost so much power. Your intake manifold was the Skunk2 am I not correct?

He said,

"This a good example of what a decent head can do. I said, "decent" not "great." The new head has no port or polish, no quality Serdi valvejob, the Intake manifold is stock, the TB is the OEM 60mm Prelude piece... I half-assed the original iteration of this engine becasue I did not know if it would work. Now that it is proven to be capable of some serious competition with H22s I hope people realize that they have a less expensive, more powerful and simpler option to the "all powerful" H22 swap."

http://www.hondaprelude.to/forums/sh...183wtq-nonVTEC

Why he would use the stock IM and TB on a high compression engine with huge cams is beyond me. Injectors also were smallish, 325cc when you had 410cc. Had he had the right intake manifold and injectors, no doubt he would have done better. He shoulda made at least 250 whp. I'm not convinced anymore man.


I also looked for the info that said the F22a head flows better than the dohc head and could not find it. Can you post a link it would be appreciated.

[dj_ender]

I don't understand your issue, I just installed a 272 this afternoon and it idles and runs. It doesn't idle perfectly, but that will be delt with soon.

[jdm92_accorn]

believe it or not the stock intake manifold is not a restriction till 7000rpm. i barely gained anything from the skunk2 but i plan to go way further so it was worth the swap to me. as far as the throttle body goes the oem prelude throttle body is not as restrictive as you would think. it may FEEL faster with a 70mm but power wise below 7000rpm it also makes no difference. i will put a stock manifold on my next f23/f22a setup that goes in betsy and it will prove to not hinder power much if any at all.

[Mishakol129]

believe it or not the stock intake manifold is not a restriction till 7000rpm. i barely gained anything from the skunk2 but i plan to go way further so it was worth the swap to me. as far as the throttle body goes the oem prelude throttle body is not as restrictive as you would think. it may FEEL faster with a 70mm but power wise below 7000rpm it also makes no difference. i will put a stock manifold on my next f23/f22a setup that goes in betsy and it will prove to not hinder power much if any at all.

What about he size of the injectors? He used stock Prelude injectors, almost 100cc's less than you RDX ones.
In terms of the manifold, I did a little research and you maybe right, the Skunk2 intake is really best for boost not for NA and won't make much more power over stock.

However, I wanna see the bench flow of the F22b dohc head and the F22a head. You say that the F22a head flows better but I wanna see proof. There could have been a few factors as to why the pirate guys build was not as good as yours. Maybe it was in the tune alone. Who knows. Still, where is the proof of the flow differences?


Some guys at the Honda Tech forum were discussing the H23 vs the F22a head and most said that the only difference is in the cost of the cams. I don't know if they were educated on the subject but it sounded right to me.

I think that we should look at other dynos such as from H23s1 engines, since that engine is basically the same thing what that guy had. One dyno isn't indisputable proof we need more graphs from H23 NA builds. H23 head is the same as F22b dohc head.

[Mishakol129]

I changed my mind again, going to get the F22a head and put it on the F23 block. Only going to mill it 0.10" though.

The shop online (eBay) said that they could get all A6 parts. So it will have the A6 cam and springs. I just don't know whether to get a new cam. I've heard it said that without a tune, a cam may be a waste of money. What do you think? Should I focus on getting it tuned or get another 260-272 camshaft?
I know the answer already, get it tuned. Tuning is just so damn hard, and expensive. I can buy all the hardware/software but I don't feel like learning how to do it. Unless someone can walk me through!

I wanna get this chip by Moates which comes with Neptune and a "Demon". Seems like the most easy solution and very similar to Hondata only cheaper. I could get that then get a socketed ECU and have it all setup for tuning. But I don't know how to tune it or what to look for. Can someone help?

[Mishakol129]

No wait, i'm keeping the DOHC head and using it for my build.
I'm going to try and get those cams running well BUT I want to get a custom base mapped ecu before then. There's this place called AdvancedIgnition online that sells them. I want to have the ECU so that I can get the Moates chip and tune my own ecu.

[Mishakol129]

Surprised no one has come on here to defend the F22a head with flow charts and such. I really wanna see the flow chart for the F22b dohc head and the F22a head. Cause I think they are almost identical in flow capabilities right out of the box, from what I can tell at least by my own usage of two heads. They feel the same. I get the same 0-60 times as well with both heads.

[SOHC-FTW]

Get it flow tested somethings ya gotta do for yourself an it may benefit others in the same boat.: