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F22A6 short block worth building ? Or look for F23 short block?

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    F22A6 short block worth building ? Or look for F23 short block?

    Hey guys been on the site for a lil just reading a lot trying to learn as much as possible. But here is my dilemma I own a 91 lx with 350,000 miles and just picked up a 92 ex for 100$, so anyways now I have a working f22a6 that I am in the process of rebuilding, I wanted to go the whole 9 yards and buy it all but upon doing some research it seems like the better thing to do would be to mate my head (A6/PT-3) I believe it is called, and the F23 short block? Not sure what to do ? So for now I am gonna just do a oem basic rebuild of the A6 and swap it out with my 350,000 A1, so when I can find a F23 short block I can take the engine back out and mate it with my PT-3 head ? Does any one have any advice for me on which direction to head if I wanna build a high compression N/A build with making the most out of the two healthy engines I have now?

    #2
    What is your overall goal? A complete F22A6 will eliminate a number of potential complications that may arise from using the F23 block. If you're just looking to do a stock rebuild, stick to the stock parts. If you're looking to get creative and make some more power, at the risk of it being a bit less reliable... give the F23 block a shot.

    The F22A can make plenty of power. The extra .1L from the F23 block isn't a bad thing, but it's not going to make a huge difference.






    Comment


      #3
      Many of the suggestions you see for F23A short blocks are likely posts I've made. I just find it to be a perfectly suitable replacement for what likely is a very tired F22A that many people have these days.

      I always try to make the differentiation between the USDM and JDM F23As, though. The USDM F23As have just as many miles on them these days that the F22As do. The difference between condition is likely a crap shoot and the risk makes the benefit of the .1L of additional displacement not quite worth it.

      With driving habits in Japan, their aversion to anything used and the government incentives to purchase new cars, they have a HUGE market for very low-mileage engines that we benefit from here in the US. The JDM F23A came in a range of Accords and Odysseys in Japan and can be had all day long from any importer for relatively inexpensive. One of the importers local to me here in Dallas has them for $350 and he has a whole shelf full of them. With the ability to sell the head, distributor, intake manifold, and alternator, you really have the potential to be into the shortblock for $200 at most. While I would still replace front and rear main seals at a minimum, you have a low-mileage replacement shortblock that will directly bolt to your PT3 head and all accessories with their respective brackets.

      Where I'm having to change my tune these past couple of years is my opinion of the head. I never thought the F23A was a bad head, but it was widely known that a ported F22A head was a beast. TThe F22A head also allowed us to run what was considered a better intake manifold that was also compatible with our style of IACV. What we're seeing now is that a camshaft will REALLY wake up the F23A head and the intake manifold can be ported out for massive gains. Chrisnick on the forum has done a lot of work to show potential in that department.

      So really my opinion has morphed not to exclude my previous suggestion of using just the shortblock, but to include both methods. If you want an inexpensive method to achieve the same thing a basic rebuild would get you, plus a VERY slight power bump, go for the shortblock swap. If you want a little bit of a bump in power along with your rebuild, swap in the whole engine. Just understand that there is much more work involved with this and the gains are not really what an H22A or H23A VTEC would be with the same effort.

      Thank you for all of the effort you put into doing your own research, though. That really helps us out when covering stuff like this.
      My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

      Comment


        #4
        I love the idea of period correctness so my car will only ever have an f22a in it even though performance is nonexistant, but hey, each to their own right?
        sold! But here's my build thread for those interested.

        http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=206864

        Comment


          #5
          I've noticed that while the F22A head has the greatest overall potential, it's really only when the head has been HEAVILY modified. For the intended purpose of most people here, as well as the budget of most people here, pretty much any F or H series engine will provide ample potential for decent performance. Naturally aspirated, none of them are going to make an enjoyable daily driver terribly fast by today's sporty car standards. Still, get a CB7 capable of a mid-14 second quarter mile, and it's a whole lot of fun to drive... even if you won't be beating any new V6 Mustangs or Camaros.






          Comment


            #6
            Where you already have a complete F22A6 and are only looking at an F23 because it's newer and has a measly 98cc more displacement. I would suggest taking your F22A6 to an engine shop and have them take it out to 86mm or even 87mm, and buy some OS pistons. That way you will have a true 2.3L that is brand new for couple hundred bucks. Probably less than it would cost to drop a used F23 in your chassis.

            For what it's worth, I kind of take the F series cylinder head flow charts with a grain of salt. You have to remember that those flow numbers are with wide open ports, there are no intake manifold or exhaust manifolds installed. That is where the F22A6 rises above. If you think support for the F22A is bad. There is 0 performance support for the F22B/F23A cylinder heads when it comes to intake and exhuast. Even the stock F22A6 intake and exhaust out performs any of the aftermarket options for the F22B/F23A. So, IMO the bang for your buck would be to rebuild the F22A6. Boosted or Naturally Aspirated!
            Last edited by GhostAccord; 05-07-2016, 02:51 PM.
            MR Thread
            GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

            by Chappy, on Flickr

            Comment


              #7
              Hey so first off I have to say I honestly didn't think anyone was going to notice this thread or give a f#%k about it but seeing how quickly you guys replied is awesome and much appreciated I am on my I phone currently unfortunately because my laptop is drying out of coffee currently because of a stupid friend so anyways it's a little hard for me to be super descriptive /helpful with pics and super detailed plans of what I wanna do (not that I could do those things with a laptop either due to my inexperience of this site and CPUs) but anyways I'm gonna try to do my best to help you guys help me and it is again much appreciated!

              Ok so here are my goals not for any really specific Ryhme or reason other then I have a full 92 EX parts car which had 250,000 miles on and a working engine (not sure how working it is though never saw it run with my own eyes) but my thoughts were I could build this engine to put in my current car now (which I probably should add is my current daily driver 91 LX sedan has 350,000 miles and is very well maintained I am only the third owner the second inherited it from his mother which had everything serviced by Honda and garaged the car when the son inherited it he was not doing so well and owned it for 3 years and got 2 duis and into a minor front end accident it was rebuilt by my mechanic then sold to me three years ago and this car is my baby and has been meticulessly maintained by me since) but once I had the engine built I was gonna swap it into my current lx and have that be one of the final steps to being a streetable track car if that is a thing being that I don't have a car right now to tow another car so I would need to be able to drive to the track but it won't be a daily driver it'll but I do wanna be able to take it out to meets and out in he canyons so basically I won't be worried about going on a drive and not having whatever type of fuel I will need so I would like to do the most reliable powerful fun engine that will be fun on the track. To me one of the things I am trying to capitalize on is really working with what I got making a strong reliable N/A engine that has a fun powerband I really would like to stay from turbo charging just because no real reason yet except for from it seems like to me I will have a more constant power band all the way through I also really like how long the gears are now on my car and never have driven a h-series transmission so no clue which gearing yet is gonna be better, but not even sure if that helps because it just seems like i am rambling away on this little iPhone screen but my plans are to get the current car all ready suspension chassis and brake wise and also build the engine in the meantime then once the engine build was done I would get serious about stripping the interior relocating the battery making a cage and sealing the engine in.

              So basically I guess what I am leaning towards wanting to do is gabe the head to port and polish the A6 head I have and rebuild the engine with better internals if it's worth it if not then I guess go with oem? But it just scared me at first when I was reading posts that said you spent 2gs rebuilding the f22 for a 9hp increase or something and that's all well and good that's an awesome feeling to know that you put that time and money into an engine and respected I'm just curious if for me the route I wanna go being that I wanna make a fun reliable car for a decent price I guess if it's reliable and worth it I don't mind spending that amount of time and money either but if I'll still be able to build a fun reliable track /steetable motor on oem internals for the most part then I will because from what what I understand unless you are revving higher then 8k some of it is unnecessary so I am not sure as to specefics what so ever of how I want my build other then I have a f22a6 to Moro with for now and don't mind spending money on some Pistons rods valves and what not but just not sure how heave duty to go I guess my price range for the engine would be about 2g all to gather (which I know it could get a lot more expensive ) so anyways thanks so much guys for the help and know it's much appreciated I'm trying to do as much research as possible so that I don't say too much stupid shit but this is my first rebuild that I have ever done on an engine bigger then a 85cc 2 stroke so I'm not gonna try to act like I know what I am talking about either because I am here to learn ! So I'm going to be doing a lot more reading for now and not so much posting especially until I fix my laptop but as long as you guys are willing to help me learn I'll try to be as descriptive and not run on as much as I can it's hard on the small screen ! Thanks guys

              Comment


                #8
                Ya a lot of typos and autocorrections sorry some of it even had me forget what the hell I said anyways sorry Guys and thanks for the help I guess what my main questions are how heavy duty should I go I would also like to build it and tune it to run on E-85 if that is worth it I think that would be cool so I hope that is a good enough amount of info the direction I wanna go!? E-85 N/A not a daily driver but don't wanna spend too much more then 2g on the engine build I would actually like to rebuild it for closer to 1g if it's more worth it? Thanks again

                Comment


                  #9
                  well so much for that i got my laptop dried out and go to log in to see if anyone replied as quickly as you guys did last time and nothing so i am gonna keep doin some research on here on the direction to build my A6 so i am gonna have the block and head inspected and checked out then i was considering just buying a rebuild kit? not sure if i should purchase a stock kit though or upgrade starting with forged rods and pistons kinda leaning towards that.

                  really hoping i didnt make myself look like a jack ass either but if i didnt before i will now, because i decided that i am going to attempt to learn how to port my head

                  basically the whole reason behind this build is, it is what i got, i got this car for 700$ and once i realized that i was too poor to afford to pay someone to keep it runningi went on google started searching and this was the first and most helpful site that came up
                  (i had searched problems with cars online before and cb7 tuner was allways there then just had no idea what it was ) so anyways started reading and my mind was blown how much knowledge was here on this site all this time.
                  since then i have been working on my car nonstop it has become my life literally, anyways what i am getting at though is this honda accord is way more then just a car i look at it as a huge learning experience to get me ready for a nicer car i love my car dont get me wrong but its a cheap honda accord that i got for 700$ that i can learn how do various things on like learn how to maintain my vehicles, learn how to drive better and get as good as i possibly can before i move up to a faster car or just so i can learn how to shift and really get good at driving i can practice all i want and mess around all i want because it is a honda there are millions if anything ever happens to mine and it is just a good car for me to beat on and have fun and learn in withouut the consequences being too high because it isnt some bad ass irreplacable one off car thats so expensive because it is all this and all that nope just my lil honda and i love her (Jessie) to death because the second i realized, wait i dont know everything about driving stick or going fast (and belive me i thought i did i have been able to drive a stick since my first car which was a 72 VW bus when i was in 6th grade) jessie was there running strong still there to teach me and get me better my lil girl has had a lot of patience with me and i have been very patient back so i am gonna getto doin some reasearch and learn myself how to port a head !

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It's going to be difficult to continue receiving replies if you don't start using punctuation. It's difficult to follow your thoughts if you don't have some semblance of sentence structure.
                    My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      sorry about the shitty typing i was on my iphone. thanks for the suggestions i have been looking at wisecco pistons but not sure if they make them for my engine so i am gonna call them and ask. but what are your guys' opinions about boring out the cylinders because it looks like the pistons that i want are 89mm (ours are 87mm correct?)

                      Comment


                        #12
                        The pistons in the F22A are 85mm. The cylinders can be bored to 86mm with most of the integrity retained, but anything over that will require resleeving.

                        Increased displacement is usually better for making power in a street car, so boring would be recommended if you want to install forged pistons. Plus, it gives you the freedom to have your machinist bore to your custom cylinder wall clearance specifications. For a turbo engine, you would want more clearance between the cylinders and pistons to accommodate for greater heat expansion.
                        My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!

                        Comment

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