slammed problems

[tomkurtziv]

Hi there guys. I just recently slammed my accord and I'm having a lot of problems. I have some ideas on how to overcome them, but I would like some opinions.
My first problem is my cv axels. Because of the ride height and somewhat of the natural camber I'm getting a slight vibration. When I look at them they are at very unnatural angles.
One of my ideas to potentially fix this is shimming the motor mounts to lift everything up a bit more. Not only would this straighten out the cv axels.. (to an extent) but it would also give me a little more clearance from the ground. As of right now my exhaust scrapes everything that's not completely smooth. If anyone has ever attempted to do such I would be grateful if you shared your experiences with me. Another problem I am having is my upper control arms bottoming out on my inner wheel well. I have somewhat fixed this problem by cutting a hole under the hood but I think I need to go bigger. I have seen other people do it, even my buddy cut his out on his eg. Please post pics if you too have done this. Another problem I'm having is the tire seems like it's hitting the inside of my wheel well at the same time. It definitely rub s when I'm taking a sharp turn. I was thinking about some wheel spacers to bring it out a little more. Right now I have an inch and a half of clearance from the outside top of my tire to the inside of my fender. (As you can probably tell from that I don't have offset wheels)25 mm spacers converts to just under an inch so I would still have a half an inch of clearance. Thanks ahead of time guys.

[wildBill83]

First off please tell us how you dropped the car.

Also the way to correct some of your problems is to correct your camber and relocate the shock towers.

I'm not sure how much clearance there is to raise the motor. Seems like a tight fit when putting one in and out. Do you have a manual trans? I assume so because you say the exhaust hits everything.

[johnl]

The only problem you have is that the chassis has been lowered excessively. This is always done for the sake of appearance and not chassis dynamics (despite what people may tell themselves), even if it screws up the suspension geometry and causes other issues such as you are having. A modest lowering can be a good thing, but it's easy to go too far. The cure is obvious...

[tomkurtziv]

First off please tell us how you dropped the car.

Also the way to correct some of your problems is to correct your camber and relocate the shock towers.

I'm not sure how much clearance there is to raise the motor. Seems like a tight fit when putting one in and out. Do you have a manual trans? I assume so because you say the exhaust hits everything.

I dropped it on megan racing full body coilovers. And yes It is manual. I also have aftermarket exhaust with much larger diameter. The welds on my bracket from the header to the back of the block broke and I had a huge exhaust leak so I welded the holes shut but I have to go back and do something with the bracket. When it comes to camber I have a set of ingalls camber kits for the front on its way to me. I've never heard about relocating the shock towers though?

[wildBill83]

Relocating the shock towers is the only way to correct the suspension geometry. Also some people use extended tophats, but tire rubbing can only be fixed with some cutting and welding.

What spring rates are paired with the coil overs? How do you like the Megans? They have mixed reviews around here.

Also, when going low, expect things like axles, ball joints, and steering items to wear faster and also keep a spare oil pan around. Also you might want to get use to exhaust problems.

[tomkurtziv]

The only problem you have is that the chassis has been lowered excessively. This is always done for the sake of appearance and not chassis dynamics (despite what people may tell themselves), even if it screws up the suspension geometry and causes other issues such as you are having. A modest lowering can be a good thing, but it's easy to go too far. The cure is obvious...

If there's a will there is a way. Though I do respect your view on the subject.

[tomkurtziv]

Relocating the shock towers is the only way to correct the suspension geometry. Also some people use extended tophats, but tire rubbing can only be fixed with some cutting and welding.

What spring rates are paired with the coil overs? How do you like the Megans? They have mixed reviews around here.

Also, when going low, expect things like axles, ball joints, and steering items to wear faster and also keep a spare oil pan around. Also you might want to get use to exhaust problems.

Honestly I have also heard a lot of bad things about megans. I got them for a steal and it wasn't my first choice of suspension, but they do the job. I have the ez street series which are the cheapest megan has to offer. Personally I like them. Before I lowered it to its extent they rode smooth and deffinately gave me more performance than my skunk 2 lowering springs and struts. When it comes to spring rate at the moment I am not too sure. I had the adjustment all the way down and to achieve the drop I wanted I had to move the Spring down as well. They also have adjustable dampening which I tweak with all the time between my modifications. The only reason the ride is different now is what I posted up there^

[wildBill83]

I would not recommend riding at the bottom travel on the struts on unknown spring rates. That is a fast way to blow struts. I would say they are an upgrade over skunk crap but don't abuse them to the point you are riding on springs only.

[tomkurtziv]

I would not recommend riding at the bottom travel on the struts on unknown spring rates. That is a fast way to blow struts. I would say they are an upgrade over skunk crap but don't abuse them to the point you are riding on springs only.

Yea I figured that. I'm going to raise it up about a half inch maybe a little less. Do I just go on the website to figure out the spring rate or contact megan? If I did it would just be the stock preloaded spring rate? Since I unloaded the spring that would change it so how do I find out what it is now?

[johnl]

Yea I figured that. I'm going to raise it up about a half inch maybe a little less. Do I just go on the website to figure out the spring rate or contact megan? If I did it would just be the stock preloaded spring rate? Since I unloaded the spring that would change it so how do I find out what it is now?

Pre-loading the spring has no affect on the spring rate, it only changes the ride height. The only exception to this is springs that do not compress at all when the chassis weight is placed on them, but it's extremely unlikely you would ever encounter this other than on some racing cars with high aerodynamic down-force. With such springs the chassis mass won't compress the springs because they are so stiff it takes weight plus down-force (and / or encountering a significant bump) to compress them.

It's a bit misleading to say that preloading such springs will change the rate, because it really doesn't. It will however change the force required for the spring to begin compressing, after which any pre-load is irrelevant to the rate.

There are springs that have a few winds of the spring that are 'dead coils' (quite common, especially with higher rate springs fitted to suspension with X droop motion intended for a softer rate spring). The 'dead' coils are softer rate coils within the spring as a whole, and only there to prevent the spring becoming loose at full extension. Dead coils are compressed fully (to bind) when the chassis weight is placed on the spring, so in practice are not involved with suspension deflection other than if the car becomes (or approaches becoming) airborne.

Dead coils are similar to the softer coils in a progressive rate spring, but don't behave the same way since the softer coils in a progressive spring do remain 'active' when weight is placed on them, and dead coils don't.

[johnl]

Relocating the shock towers is the only way to correct the suspension geometry. Also some people use extended tophats, but tire rubbing can only be fixed with some cutting and welding.

Yes.

Major lowering can be done and in theory is a 'good thing', but only if the problems caused by it are properly addressed (and you can live with other problems that can't be, such as scraping the ground).

It's not just clearance issues, but it also affects things like; the location of the geometric roll centre, how much of the lateral weight transfers geometrically and how much 'elastically' (i.e. through the suspension linkages vs through springs and ARBs), the manner in and degree to which the geometric roll centre changes location with roll motion, the relative front / rear distribution of lateral weight transfer in roll, the suspensions 'camber curve' (the amount of camber change that occurs with suspension deflection), the static camber, the degree of bump steer, the degree of roll steer...

It's a can of worms, and can have unwanted side effects. IMO it's only something that ought to be considered if you know what you are doing and are willing to go to quite a lot of trouble to correct the adverse side affects of doing it. Or else you're likely to end up with a car that handles worse than if a more 'sensible' degree of lowering were implemented.

[tomkurtziv]

Yes.

Major lowering can be done and in theory is a 'good thing', but only if the problems caused by it are properly addressed (and you can live with other problems that can't be, such as scraping the ground).

It's not just clearance issues, but it also affects things like; the location of the geometric roll centre, how much of the lateral weight transfers geometrically and how much 'elastically' (i.e. through the suspension linkages vs through springs and ARBs), the manner in and degree to which the geometric roll centre changes location with roll motion, the relative front / rear distribution of lateral weight transfer in roll, the suspensions 'camber curve' (the amount of camber change that occurs with suspension deflection), the static camber, the degree of bump steer, the degree of roll steer...

It's a can of worms, and can have unwanted side effects. IMO it's only something that ought to be considered if you know what you are doing and are willing to go to quite a lot of trouble to correct the adverse side affects of doing it. Or else you're likely to end up with a car that handles worse than if a more 'sensible' degree of lowering were implemented.

I will say this, I am not worried about scraping. But I would like to talk to someone who has been through these problems and see what they have done to their car to get some ideas to work with and manipulate. When it comes to the roll of the car and the weight transfer when turning, I am not taking this thing to the track nor am I racing on the roads. Yes this does matter and will affect the "smoother ride" but not to the extent that I am too worried about. And i understand what you are saying. I simply want the car to ride as smooth as possible without sacrificing ride height. With this said I am willing to do whatever it takes to achieve this.i will take these posts into serious consideration (after all that is what this post was intended for)
Btw: you have some great knowledge spilled out on this forum.

[johnl]

When it comes to the roll of the car and the weight transfer when turning, I am not taking this thing to the track nor am I racing on the roads. Yes this does matter and will affect the "smoother ride" but not to the extent that I am too worried about.

But it will still affect the handling in an emergency situation when the car may well come closer to 'the edge' than you really intended to take it. Cars with very poorly modified suspension may be safe enough at 60kmh on city streets (?), but really shouldn't be driven at higher speeds on the open road...

And i understand what you are saying. I simply want the car to ride as smooth as possible without sacrificing ride height. With this said I am willing to do whatever it takes to achieve this.

Well, smooth ride and very low ride height are more or less mutually exclusive goals. If the springs are soft enough to give a smooth ride then you'll be hitting the bump stops frequently, if stiff enough to prevent this then the ride will be harsh.

I see riced up cars bouncing down the road almost scraping the deck with absurd camber angles and tyres tortured by manic sidewall stretches. The drivers may think they and their car are 'cool', but anyone who knows anything about chassis dynamics will have a rather different opinion. Just saying it as it is.

To varying degree most of us are victims of fashion (part of the 'human condition'), but people ought to be resistant to the extremes of automotive fashion for things like ride height, camber angle, sidewall stretch etc. Fashion can take such things to the point of potentially dangerous absurdity, like the Victorian fashion for women having unnaturally small waists to the point of corsets so tight it caused substantial health problems, or Chinese foot binding, or Burmese neck stretching rings, etc...

The 'slammed' look may well be based on the stance seen on circuit racing cars, but ultimately is merely a fashion statement taken to an impractical extreme, it has really nothing to do with function (actually impairs function). Sorry for the rant, it's a minor 'push-button' issue for me...

[H311RA151N]

I like the look of a slammed vehicle myself although my idea of slammed is not so extreme. Here is my 93 LX.









This to me is slammed but it's was also a proper suspension setup that I had near a grand into. You get what you pay for and cheaping out on a suspension setup is like getting a heart for a heart transplant from a smoker of 40 years because its cheaper. It's serious stuff. Not to mention your on the road with others as well and in some scenarios you will put them in jeopardy too. Plus if I'm driving down the road behind an excessively low car and they kick a pebble into my windshield they are likely to get pulled out of their car at the next light. It's ok on accident but doing it deliberately is bull crap. Purposefully making a car that low is deliberate. That's my take on it.

If it's going to be that low and not primarily on the street go for it. There are ways of doing it both right and wrong. And if it's not on the street to hell with safety. That kinda low is for show cars. Show cars are cool too. Go for it wither way, no ones going to stop you anyways. You have the freedom to do what you wish rightfully so. But you also have the freedom of consequence.

[johnl]

I like the look of a slammed vehicle myself although my idea of slammed is not so extreme. Here is my 93 LX.

My Accord is just a bit higher than that, plenty low for me, and I didn't do it for cosmetic purposes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti lowering (so long as it's done properly and to a sensible degree for a road car), but I am anti 'slamming' (at least the way most people seem to achieve it).

Regards,
John.