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    #16
    Originally posted by Mishakol129 View Post
    I suppose, you know your stuff after all. Have you learned the art of tuning an OBD I ecu?




    When it comes to tuning and engine building that is....Do not disrespect my intelligence. I am the smartest person I know : )
    Congrats, you have finally replaced my sig.
    Originally posted by Mishakol129
    Do not disrespect my intelligence. I am the smartest person I know : )

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by toycar View Post
      Adjustable cam gears would help you a ton. Reason you are having issues is the timing moves when you apply tension the cams rotate. Adjusting the gear properly so they rotate into the correct position is tricky. Especially on a DOHC engine if you have never had someone there to teach you how to do it right. It really is hard. I have been doing this for decades, and it still takes me a couple tries sometimes.


      Most of the time I get it in one try, but, occasionally, its a pain in the ass. Adjustable cam gears allow you to adjust valve timing(cam gears) without taking the tension off the belt. The application of the tension is whats giving you problems and forcing things to move, so, yeah, adjustable gears would solve your problem for sure.
      adjustable cam gears are not made to correct someone installing the timing belt improperly, they are there to change camshaft centerlines to the proper degree for the engine. you could bandaid it with cam gears but i dont recommend it and it should never be regarded as a proper repair for a problem. you should not be adjusting the cam gears without the proper tools such as a degreeing wheel and dial indicator.

      as far as a proper idle adustment, you need to check tps voltage with throttle closed then wot. it should be between .45-.5V closed and 4.5ish at WOT, this will make sense in a minute. crank the car and get it to operating temprature. once at operating temp, switch the car off. next, jump the service connector behind the passenger side kick panel then start the car back up and unplug the iacv. then adjust the throttle screw until the car idles at target idle. cut switch off and plug iacv back up and remove jumper. now go back the tps and see where the voltages are. if they are not within spec adjust tps back to oem specs. tps if you have never adjusted still has the break off bolts. they can be easily removed by taking a dremel with a cutoff wheel and cutting a slot in the head of the bolt so it can be removed with a flat head screw driver.
      pm me if you have any questions about it.

      MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=95154

      Comment


        #18
        Originally posted by Mishakol129 View Post
        I suppose, you know your stuff after all. Have you learned the art of tuning an OBD I ecu?
        Yes, I learned the art of soldering and tuning ECU's/Engine management systems. I have chipped and modified both the OBD0 and OBD1 Honda ECUs. I have tuned using Crome, eCtune, Neptune, uberdata and TunerStudio MS.

        I'm not saying that you couldn't do the very same.... I'm just saying that there are no shortcuts!
        MR Thread
        GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

        by Chappy, on Flickr

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by GhostAccord View Post
          Yes, I learned the art of soldering and tuning ECU's/Engine management systems. I have chipped and modified both the OBD0 and OBD1 Honda ECUs. I have tuned using Crome, eCtune, Neptune, uberdata and TunerStudio MS.

          I'm not saying that you couldn't do the very same.... I'm just saying that there are no shortcuts!
          That's pretty cool man. What did you need to purchase to do it and where did you go to study this secret art?
          “Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.”
          ― Jeremy Clarkson




          Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
          http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


          Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

          http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
            adjustable cam gears are not made to correct someone installing the timing belt improperly, they are there to change camshaft centerlines to the proper degree for the engine. you could bandaid it with cam gears but i dont recommend it and it should never be regarded as a proper repair for a problem. you should not be adjusting the cam gears without the proper tools such as a degreeing wheel and dial indicator.
            I agree, this sounds totally reasonable. I wasn't even thinking of doing this because I have not the proper experience in how to use them. If they would help my engine run on these cams then I would get them though and try to make them work. Head is milled 0.015" by the way, if that matters any.

            Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
            as far as a proper idle adustment, you need to check tps voltage with throttle closed then wot. it should be between .45-.5V closed and 4.5ish at WOT, this will make sense in a minute. crank the car and get it to operating temprature. once at operating temp, switch the car off. next, jump the service connector behind the passenger side kick panel then start the car back up and unplug the iacv. then adjust the throttle screw until the car idles at target idle. cut switch off and plug iacv back up and remove jumper. now go back the tps and see where the voltages are. if they are not within spec adjust tps back to oem specs. tps if you have never adjusted still has the break off bolts. they can be easily removed by taking a dremel with a cutoff wheel and cutting a slot in the head of the bolt so it can be removed with a flat head screw driver.
            pm me if you have any questions about it.
            Okay, I saw the guide on how to set the TPS but why would I need to do that if its already at its factory setting?
            Last edited by Mishakol129; 03-16-2014, 12:50 AM.
            “Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.”
            ― Jeremy Clarkson




            Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
            http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


            Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

            http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

            Comment


              #21
              Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
              adjustable cam gears are not made to correct someone installing the timing belt improperly, they are there to change camshaft centerlines to the proper degree for the engine. you could bandaid it with cam gears but i dont recommend it and it should never be regarded as a proper repair for a problem. you should not be adjusting the cam gears without the proper tools such as a degreeing wheel and dial indicator.



              Anyone using adjustable cam gears without a degreeing wheel and dial indicator is a retard. I guess I made an assumption here that anyone using adjustable gears knows this.


              And, adjustable gears can assist in setting timing and have plenty for me as well as dozens of people I have worked with over the years. How?

              Well, set timing without belt tension.

              Loosen cam gear(s). Verify cam(s) are still timed correctly after loosening gear(s).


              Pull slack around timing gear on snout of crank and h2o pump, verify timing mark is correct, apply tension. As cam gears rotate, like they always do, cam(s) do not move. Belt is tight, crank is still timed correctly, tighten gears and call it a day.


              I don't really know whats so hard about that.
              Originally posted by wed3k
              im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

              Comment


                #22
                when i put the f22b dohc on the f23 bottom end i'll just video it for everyone, lol. most of the people on this forum im sure are better visual learners.

                MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=95154

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
                  when i put the f22b dohc on the f23 bottom end i'll just video it for everyone, lol. most of the people on this forum im sure are better visual learners.
                  Well, visual learning IS better than blind learning, hehe.
                  I'm only that way with stuff I never seen before or had experience of. It helps tremendously to see diagrams or pictures of what we're talking about. Video is not bad either.

                  Anyways. That swap is pretty good. I have a feeling it might make more HP than the sohc head. It probably has a different torque curve though. I would know I got the f22b dohc head on the f22a block right now running good. You gotta get the right water pump timing belt combo. I used the f22b/f20a dohc pump (eBay $35), and the caravan belt(same as f22b dohc). That's the perfect stock combo, you don't wanna use the h23 belt/f22 pump if you don't have to.
                  You don't have to buy the water pump at that very overpriced shop online, you can get one eBay, a NTP brand, its OEM spec. Took me a while to find it but I am glad I did.
                  Last edited by Mishakol129; 03-20-2014, 01:48 AM.
                  “Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.”
                  ― Jeremy Clarkson




                  Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
                  http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


                  Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

                  http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

                  Comment


                    #24
                    the dohc head wont make the same power without some serious work. the v.a.p on the dohc head isnt as ideal as the sohc head. the sohc is 45deg and the dohc is 60deg with more of a choke point on the exhaust of the dohc head. look at how much work piratemcfred did just to get 200whp,183wtq.

                    2,307ccs
                    87mm bore 97mm stroke (overbored F23 shortblock)
                    JDM F22B DOHC cylinder head
                    11.7 compression
                    DC header w/ 2.5" collector and dented down pipe
                    Custom 2.5" mandrel bent exhaust
                    Crower Stage 3 nonVTEC cams
                    RM springs/retainers
                    Adjustable cam gears
                    MSD SCI ignition w/ Blaster SS coil (dyno proven to be good for 1.5hp *everywhere*)
                    Mobile 1 10w30 oil
                    Prelude 345cc injectors (woefully inadequate at sea level)
                    4th gear pulls

                    Stock wires
                    Stock plugs
                    Stock flywheel
                    No PS
                    No AC
                    No BS belt.

                    Associated Links:
                    http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=776837 Tom's thread that started it all.
                    http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1046336 My original build thread.
                    http://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1052811 My original dyno thread.


                    Here are the graphs:

                    Here is the overlay of the last three dyno sessions.
                    For details on the the different setups see the above Dyno link.
                    Green = F22B DOHC head w/ Crower cams (head freshly rebuilt)
                    Red = H23A1 nonVTEC w/ Crower cams (head was in really poor condition)
                    Blue = H23A1 with stock cams (head was in poor condition)


                    and here is my setup

                    K&N filter
                    BLOX 4" velocity stack
                    AEM BB6 V2 SRI
                    Maxbore 70mm>64mm H23vtec throttle body
                    Skunk2 Pro series V2 H22 intake manifold
                    OEM RDX 410cc injectors
                    AEM adjustable FPR set at 40psi
                    balance shaft belt removed
                    PT3 (F22A) cylinder head milled .020" (bumps compression to 9.7:1)
                    Bisimoto level 2 regrind
                    Bisimoto Pro valve springs
                    Bisimoto billet aluminum rocker spacers
                    Bisimoto cam gear
                    NGK blue wires
                    OEM Honda new Cap and Rotor button
                    JDM F23A short block
                    Bisimoto V2 4-1 header



                    and ive proven more than once the superflow dyno reads lower than a dynojet.

                    Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
                    Same setup. More fuel, little less timing.
                    Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
                    these two were only a couple days apart and the ambient temps and humidity were close. it's about a 6% difference.

                    MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=95154

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Wow so he put high compression pistons in it, it was 11.7 so he must of.. or milled the head like crazy.

                      Something must be off with the build though, it just can't be right. How can the F22b dohc head which came from a car (the Prelude) that was performance oriented, perform less than a head coming from a car (the Accord) not made for performance? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it that way.

                      I don't get why people praise that engine so much then, I even saw the NA list and there was not a single F22b dohc on there. Makes you wonder why.
                      “Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.”
                      ― Jeremy Clarkson




                      Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
                      http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


                      Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

                      http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
                        when i put the f22b dohc on the f23 bottom end i'll just video it for everyone, lol. most of the people on this forum im sure are better visual learners.
                        Just so its out there, I completely agree that doing it the right way is better and the way it should be done.


                        Originally posted by wed3k
                        im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Originally posted by Mishakol129 View Post
                          Wow so he put high compression pistons in it, it was 11.7 so he must of.. or milled the head like crazy.

                          Something must be off with the build though, it just can't be right. How can the F22b dohc head which came from a car (the Prelude) that was performance oriented, perform less than a head coming from a car (the Accord) not made for performance? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense when you think about it that way.

                          I don't get why people praise that engine so much then, I even saw the NA list and there was not a single F22b dohc on there. Makes you wonder why.
                          He probably used 09 tsx pistons and milled the head .020". I promise you it is right. What people don't realize is I make 191whp on a f22b bottom end with a cam that is smaller in comparison to the delta 260's. Delta 260's in a f22b with supporting mods is about 165whp. So with a milled head and a bisi header it'd be 175whp tops. There is the proof of the sohc head flowing better, it takes less cam to make more power.

                          MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=95154

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Originally posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
                            He probably used 09 tsx pistons and milled the head .020". I promise you it is right. What people don't realize is I make 191whp on a f22b bottom end with a cam that is smaller in comparison to the delta 260's. Delta 260's in a f22b with supporting mods is about 165whp. So with a milled head and a bisi header it'd be 175whp tops. There is the proof of the sohc head flowing better, it takes less cam to make more power.
                            Interesting. I guess imma sucker then for using the dohc head lol.
                            I'm thinking though that its your bisi header that gives you better power ratings.

                            I would like to see this "proof" of the sohc head flowing better. There has to be strengths and weaknesses of both heads, non should be said "superior" over the other. Maybe it was all in the tune, IDK. I swear that the f22b dohc head on the f22a block makes just as much power as the f22a6 head does, I can feel it.
                            “Speed has never killed anyone. Suddenly becoming stationary, that's what gets you.”
                            ― Jeremy Clarkson




                            Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
                            http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


                            Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

                            http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Until you actually make proper use of the DOHC setup, yes you are just a sucker for having DOHC written on your valve cover. Without adjustable gears and real dyno time DOHC with aftermarket cams are no better than the SOHC counterparts.... Fact!

                              Please stop comparing your A$$ dyno to actual dynos and known cylinder head flow numbers. Your imagination is not a measure of actual power. How many times do you have be told this? I'm pretty sure that it is your continual use of assumptions and uneducated opinions that keeps getting you banned from forums.

                              Bisi header might be worth 5-10 at the most......


                              On another note;
                              It would be nice if you would stop posting your elementary questions in other peoples threads in the hopes that someone might pay attention to them. As you may or may not have noticed no one cares and you are cluttering up an otherwise really good technical thread!
                              Last edited by GhostAccord; 03-21-2014, 06:20 AM.
                              MR Thread
                              GhostAccord 2.4L Blog

                              by Chappy, on Flickr

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Holy shit. I need to address some things here. Is the OP letting his car idle at 500 RPM's? Because honestly, I'm surprised it would stay running with RPM's that low considering factory RPM's are set at 750 to 800 on warm idle. Cold idle is usually around 1100. Also, using an eBay water pump is asking for issues. I'll always buy OEM from the factory, or performance from a trusted source.
                                Toycar, I think you missed the real point of that post. Yes, you can advance or retard the timing with adjustable came gears, but you can not fix timing that is completely off with adjustable cam gears. In order for adjustable cam gears to do what they were made for correctly, initial timing has to be set properly. Adjustable cam gears were made initially for performance enthusiast that wanted to make adjustments on the fly to suite their needs when it comes to timing, because we know that adjusting your timing in increments can improve power when you need it. Also, cam adjustments can help also, which is why adjustable cam gears come in handy for street/track vehicles

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