CB7Tuner Forums

Go Back   CB7Tuner Forums > Beginner forum -- New members post here! > Beginner Technical/Performance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-20-2013, 12:17 AM   #1
slammed4door
Newcomer
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Lacey WA
Posts: 1
slammed4door is cool... so far.
Vtec f23 swap

I'm about to do a swap from my stock f22 to a SOHC VTEC f23 I have the stock ecu and its a manual what type of ecu and wiring harness do I need for this swap? Also its a 92 ex
slammed4door is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 12:36 AM   #2
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wherever Uncle Sam Sends Me....
Posts: 1,796
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Did you search for your answer?

Why are you doing this swap?
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 07:28 AM   #3
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 40,173
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
At least try to answer his question, Joey.

There is no OBD1 F23A1 ECU. You can try a conversion harness and the proper ECU for the engine, or you can get a chipped P28 ECU and have it tuned for your particular setup.
Personally, I feel the F23A1 swap is a major waste of time and money. There's very little to be gained, and SOHC VTEC is more of a fuel economy device than it is a performance feature.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 08:18 AM   #4
toycar
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Old folks home
Posts: 1,161
toycar is very helpful toycar is very helpful toycar is very helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Personally, I feel the F23A1 swap is a major waste of time and money. There's very little to be gained, and SOHC VTEC is more of a fuel economy device than it is a performance feature.





While I do not want to discredit you or anyone that has said this in the past, I just cannot agree with this after the extensive r&d I have done with the f22b1. The f22b1 shares the same port pattern and valve angles, and the cylinder head outflows the f22a cylinder head by quite a bit through .5 lift.


A bisi level 2 cam is something like .462 lift if I remember right. Level 3 is something like .486 or something. Don't quote me on that. Its not .5 lift is all I am getting at. There really aren't any off the shelf options for the f22a that have a .5 lift. So, unless people are going to be building engines using top shelf valves/springs/retainers, rev to 10k rpm's and run custom/level x cam's exceeeding .5 lift, the arguement for the f22ax just isn't accurate.


It just isn't. It doesn't respond as well, it doesn't flow as much, it doesn't out perform, nothing. Not until .5 lift has been exceeded, and 99% of people building 4 cylinder engines keep their cam profiles under that benchmark. Sure, the overall potential of the f22a is greater. It really is. But, to achieve that, you are going to have to run a cam that exceeds .5 lift-basically a drag car only. Not a street friendly car by any means.

And all of my research on the f22b1 has come to these conclusions, but the f23a has been proven to outflow the f22b1 and has slightly higher compression. I would consider it a decent candidate for a motor swap.


Just my opinion anyways.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by wed3k View Post
im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.
toycar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 10:23 AM   #5
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wherever Uncle Sam Sends Me....
Posts: 1,796
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
At least try to answer his question, Joey.
I know I should've, but we both know where this is going most likely, not that toycar's argument isn't valid. But does this guy know that? Not a chance.

I wouldn't mind building an F23A5 based on toycar's argument though.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...

Last edited by Joey GT-R; 11-20-2013 at 10:26 AM.
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 10:41 AM   #6
cb7 calling
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 435
cb7 calling is cool... so far.
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
At least try to answer his question, Joey.

There is no OBD1 F23A1 ECU. You can try a conversion harness and the proper ECU for the engine, or you can get a chipped P28 ECU and have it tuned for your particular setup.
Personally, I feel the F23A1 swap is a major waste of time and money. There's very little to be gained, and SOHC VTEC is more of a fuel economy device than it is a performance feature.
That's the problem. If the f23 was easy to put in a cb I would probly do it because those things are a dime a dozen. I even saw a cb at the j/y with one in it. Let's guess why it was there. Unless you are going to build it or at least cam it, its not worth converting it to obd1 and having a tuned ecu just to make the car run in my opinion. If you know how to tune, chip and had a dyno it would be a different story. I can only guess what that process cost but I'm sure it puts you into an easier more potent swap is I think what deeve is saying. If you are not going to cam it I think tuning would be tough because the cam and head are designed around a fuel saving style of v-tec. I have never heard anyone say I have f23 basemaps. The conversion harness is leaving me intrigued. How do they handle all that obd2 stuff that's not on a cb? Like different evap systems and all that? Won't it run in limp mode at best?Those questions are rhetoric because I'm searching for the answer after I post this.
I believe the f23 itself is a good motor that should get more credit. I know an f23 you don't wanna race with an h22. A good friend of mine has an f23 with intake, header, exhaust. It pulls, its fast and I like it. It's honestly got to be slower than an h22 as the HP numbers suggest but not by much. It has responded very well to those upgrades though it should, he bought the best available. The thing is its in about the only car it should be in, a 2.3 cl 5 speed.
__________________
......father in law has it back again. Time to shine

Last edited by cb7 calling; 11-20-2013 at 10:44 AM.
cb7 calling is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 10:50 AM   #7
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Wherever Uncle Sam Sends Me....
Posts: 1,796
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb7 calling View Post
I believe the f23 itself is a good motor that should get more credit. I know an f23 you don't wanna race with an h22. A good friend of mine has an f23 with intake, header, exhaust. It pulls, its fast and I like it. It's honestly got to be slower than an h22 as the HP numbers suggest but not by much. It has responded very well to those upgrades though it should, he bought the best available. The thing is its in about the only car it should be in, a 2.3 cl 5 speed.
An F23A with light duty mods will give an H22 a good run, and can pull from gears 1-3 possibly. I know from experience.

F23As also come in CGs FYI.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 10:58 AM   #8
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,449
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
As cb7_calling was saying this is not a worthwhile engine from a performance perspective unless an aftermarket cam and tuning solution is used. Toycar, I really enjoyed your thread on the headflow findings, but those don't account for that head to then be thrown back into an environment that will then only operate on one intake valve per cylinder under a certain rpm and be tuned for economical performance.

The conversion harness is not really an option. Conversion harnesses are designed to allow people to run an OBD1 ECU in a vehicle that came with an OBD2 system. If you have a 2000 Civic EX with a B18C1 you can't tune it with the ECU that's in it so you need the ability to interface a tunable ECU with the car.
__________________
My Members' Ride Thread - It's a marathon build, not a sprint. But keep me honest on the update frequency!
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 12:08 PM   #9
toycar
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Old folks home
Posts: 1,161
toycar is very helpful toycar is very helpful toycar is very helpful
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
As cb7_calling was saying this is not a worthwhile engine from a performance perspective unless an aftermarket cam and tuning solution is used. Toycar, I really enjoyed your thread on the headflow findings, but those don't account for that head to then be thrown back into an environment that will then only operate on one intake valve per cylinder under a certain rpm and be tuned for economical performance.

The conversion harness is not really an option. Conversion harnesses are designed to allow people to run an OBD1 ECU in a vehicle that came with an OBD2 system. If you have a 2000 Civic EX with a B18C1 you can't tune it with the ECU that's in it so you need the ability to interface a tunable ECU with the car.
While I agree that real world operation vs flow bench results will vary, the numbers are very promising and the design for running one valve allows for the disrupted flow due to air demand at lower engine speeds. I personally cannot put much stock in your side of the arguement(1 operational valve) because that would basically be an attempt at discrediting vtec as a system rather than its application on a single cam engine-which has always been the grype against F series vtec.


Its only on one side, its for economy, blah blah blah.


Yeah well during regular driving the H22, F20c, F20b all only use one valve just the same as any variable valve timing valve train.

So, I dunno. I just don't buy it. The torque curve on the dyno supports the idea that generating pressure in the port is more important than overall flow at lower RPM's, which is why vtec works as well as it does.


Having two valves operational at lower engine speeds allows for too much flow and hurts performance just the same. This is why they evolved to running actuated runners in the manifold towards the end of the f22a's life cycle. The next generation engine they perfected used valve timing instead to accomplish the same thing. Less is more basically at lower engine speeds. They didn't choke the engine by running 1 valve they did it by cutting the flow of the manifold. Same concept, just controlling it with intake management and a butterfly valve instead of valve timing. After enough R&D they figured out the best way to control that flow is with valve timing, not actuated manifold runners.




The million dollar question here;



As technology and engineering has evolved, do they now consider active secondaries or valve timing a more efficient means of controlling flow?

How are current engines designed I guess is what I am asking?






Variable valve timing. And every single engine with variable valve timing has an RPM range that 1 valve is active vs 2. Every one of them.


So, yeah, I just cannot put much stock in that arguement.


no offense or anything, its nothing personal its just that the science doesn't support your theory.




You can hurt performance with too large of a port. All of the import car makers had larger ports in the early 90's and evolved to a different port design by mid decade. Why? performance.


Why does the 2g dsm make more power than the 1g? Port design is smaller, smaller turbo, I mean, WTF is the deal here?


The engine generates pressure faster. Thats all. Yeah, there is an obvious point that too small hurts performance too. I get that. It works both ways though, and thats why I cannot endorse the notion that vtec, variable valve timing or anything of the sort hurts performance specifically because of single valve operation vs dual.


Every car maker has some sort of variable valve timing now. And, they all operate 1 valve before engagement and this practice is leading to much more attractive torque curves and earlier peak torque available as well as higher ve's
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by wed3k View Post
im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

Last edited by toycar; 11-20-2013 at 12:12 PM.
toycar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 06:16 PM   #10
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 40,173
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
Quote:
Originally Posted by toycar View Post
While I do not want to discredit you or anyone that has said this in the past, I just cannot agree with this after the extensive r&d I have done with the f22b1. The f22b1 shares the same port pattern and valve angles, and the cylinder head outflows the f22a cylinder head by quite a bit through .5 lift.


A bisi level 2 cam is something like .462 lift if I remember right. Level 3 is something like .486 or something. Don't quote me on that. Its not .5 lift is all I am getting at. There really aren't any off the shelf options for the f22a that have a .5 lift. So, unless people are going to be building engines using top shelf valves/springs/retainers, rev to 10k rpm's and run custom/level x cam's exceeeding .5 lift, the arguement for the f22ax just isn't accurate.


It just isn't. It doesn't respond as well, it doesn't flow as much, it doesn't out perform, nothing. Not until .5 lift has been exceeded, and 99% of people building 4 cylinder engines keep their cam profiles under that benchmark. Sure, the overall potential of the f22a is greater. It really is. But, to achieve that, you are going to have to run a cam that exceeds .5 lift-basically a drag car only. Not a street friendly car by any means.

And all of my research on the f22b1 has come to these conclusions, but the f23a has been proven to outflow the f22b1 and has slightly higher compression. I would consider it a decent candidate for a motor swap.


Just my opinion anyways.
I'm not making a comparison. There's no build being discussed. Quite honestly, I feel building an N/A F22A is a waste of time as well. By the time you make respectable power, the powerband is going to be so peaky that it's going to be a bitch and a half to drive on the street. And forget about emissions legality!
But if we're going to compare:
At least with an F22A, it's already in the car. There's already a proper ECU for it. No custom mounting, wiring, programming, or plumbing is required to play with an F22A. You're starting with a "free" engine, 10hp less, a bit less torque, and a much less complicated system.

Honestly, the only worthwhile N/A options to me are the H or K swaps. The H22A being the most reasonable, because of the simplicity to install, maintain, and modify.
If turbo is the plan, the F22A can make more power than the average daily driver needs. You can easily surpass the CB7's traction limits on public roads with a turbo F22A... most likely with nothing more than forged pistons (stock sleeves, stock head).
Installing an F23A1 for boost is silly. It offers no real benefit over the F22A, while offering the added complication of VTEC. the extra .1L isn't really significant, and even less so when turbo is involved.

The F23A1 is a perfectly good engine if you have a 6th gen Accord. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. But as a swap in a 4th gen, it's a total pain in the ass for a 10hp gain and half of a proper VTEC system... assuming you can manage to get an ECU to control it effectively.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-20-2013, 06:34 PM   #11
illinois_erik
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,123
illinois_erik is very helpful illinois_erik is very helpful illinois_erik is very helpful


so could this timing difference be applied to the h22, deleting the iab's, and of course aftermarket engine management.

I remember reading about the better valves angles calculated and employed. So if you were thinking out of the box the f23 seems like a powerful but expen$ive endevor. And at least its not some LEV engine theyre trying to put in
__________________
illinois_erik is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
ecu , swap f23

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.