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93 LX Auto no start

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    93 LX Auto no start

    I've been lurking and reading up on this issue but so far it's only led me to the end of my knowledge. I therefore call upon the ancient wisdom of the forum for help.

    First some history - I had rehabbed the car about a year ago and my daughter in college had been driving it. She is not a "car person"- and she blissfully drove it while it was overheating (hole in heater hose) - to the point where the plastic timing belt covers, spark plug o-rings, valve cover gasket all melted down like Fukushima. I mean, that stuff literally melted and ran and got tangled in the timing gear when it re-solidified. It sounded like an old-school bicycle with baseball cards in the spokes. So stop laughing. Anyway, I replaced all that stuff - along with all the belts, all cooling hoses, and the radiator. [fyi there's no evidence of oil in the coolant, or coolant in the oil...so I assumed the head was still ok]

    Afterwards, it started right up like a champ and ran fine. I did not re-set the idle, since it seemed fine. Over the next week, it started to be a bit more cold-blooded and when it would start it would idle terribly, like it was on 3 cylinders...after 30 seconds it would smooth out and be fine. (the weather here has been like 70f-80f).

    3 days ago, I drove it down to the pick-n-pull to grab some trim pieces...it ran fine on the highway - we did 75-80 all the way down with no issues. When I tried to re-start- it cranked fine, and tried to catch, but will not fully catch and run.

    I don't like to shotgun parts but I had some stuff I had previously bought "just in case" that I decided to install...you know, just in case. So at this point, this is what I have checked/done;

    >I could hear the fuel pump run when I first turned the key
    >replaced the fuel pump master relay anyway
    >checked the fuel pressure at the rail; 29psi when it "primes" - about 40psi when it's cranking
    >spark plugs are drenched in gas after starting attempts (I guess that's to be expected since it's not starting?)
    >I get a nice bright spark @ all the plugs
    >I suspected maybe the timing belt got loose and jumped a couple of teeth so I checked the timing marks - with the dizzy pointed to #1, the pointers are right on the mark with the white paint (see pic). I also had a wood dowel down the #1 cyl hole and verified it was at the top of the stroke at this position.


    Both the dizzy and coil are relatively new.

    So...there you have it. I have fuel, I have spark, and I think the timing is close enough to where it should at least start. Any ideas for a next step?

    #2
    Chicks n gear
    I'm faster then a prius

    Comment


      #3
      Man, you definitely were thorough! You already touched on pretty much all the primary culprits. An engine needs air, fuel, spark, and compression to run. You seem to have ruled out the first three for certain. That leaves compression. Have you verified that the engine itself isn't totally fubar inside? The fact that it was acting up and idling strangely suggests to me that it may have sustained internal damage. It would have to be pretty bad to not start at all, I'd think.

      The only other thing I can think of off hand is the distributor. Has the engine run since you replaced it? Have you checked to be sure you didn't install it 180 degrees out? It's not likely since it's keyed and you seem to be very detail oriented... but I've seen it happen. If the distributor is firing the plugs at the wrong time, they wouldn't ignite the air/fuel mixture when it matters.






      Comment


        #4
        It was running with the current dizzy...so at least I know it's not 180º out.

        Even so, I guess the dizzy it could be suspect. That motor got seriously hot - it wouldn't surprise me if it got cooked. I'll have to dive into the manual and see what I can test before I just shotgun the whole thing.

        I haven't checked compression yet...I'ma buy a gauge tonight and check it tmw. I agree that it should at least run...but I suppose it never hurts to check.

        Comment


          #5
          Idle screw and IACV? As deev said, you need air, fuel, and spark. You have verified the last two. If you're not getting enough air with the throttle body closed and the IACV isn't letting enough in, it may not start. Once you get it started and keep the throttle open (highway) it is getting enough air. Try pulling the PCV hose off the plenum and see it if starts. If so, then try cleaning the throttle body, particularly the idle screw, and the IACV.
          Last edited by Fleetw00d; 05-29-2017, 11:13 AM.
          90 LX 4dr 5 spd 396,014 (sold 1/1/2022) - MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201450
          08 Element LX FWD AT 229,000 - MRT: fleetw00d : 2008 Honda Element LX - CB7Tuner Forums

          Comment


            #6
            I agree with fleetwood after you verify compression. Let the plugs dry, and create a vacuum leak, and see what happens. Also try starter fluid if you haven't already. (I'm aware you're getting fuel)

            Are you checking fuel pressure before or after the regulator? It's to be checked before the regulator. I'm asking because 29psi is low.
            Last edited by F22Chris; 05-27-2017, 12:48 AM.

            Comment


              #7
              I opened up the throttle body and saw that it was full of brown gunk all around the edges of the flapper. I blasted it clean and also removed and cleaned out the IACV. I tried starting it again at that point, and while it still failed to start, it was better.
              I inspected the spark plugs again,and it seemed like a ll the brown gunk I'd sprayed out of the intake was on 'em...so I removed them, let everything dry, and replaced the plugs with new ones....and after a lot of cranking, stumbling, and almost starting, it started and ran fine.
              I still need to do a long drive and get the motor nice and hot to re-test...but it's definitely better. Thanks to everybody for the help!!

              Comment


                #8
                I'm curious what the brown gunk on the throttle body was. That's not good! Could be a coolant leak. Keep an eye out for that.






                Comment


                  #9
                  How many miles on it? Check the PCV valve, if it isn't working correctly the crankcase will vent into the intake ahead of the throttle body. Just cleaning the flapper won't help much, when you're attempting to start it is completely closed and base idle air is going past the idle screw. If that is gunked up as well, it could be a contributor. For the price of a gasket and small o-ring, remove the throttle body, disassemble it including the idle screw, clean it real well. For an initial setting, before disassembly, count the number of turns it takes to turn the idle screw in until it seats. When you put it back together, use this as the initial setting; then adjust it with the engine running.

                  http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=146239
                  90 LX 4dr 5 spd 396,014 (sold 1/1/2022) - MRT: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201450
                  08 Element LX FWD AT 229,000 - MRT: fleetw00d : 2008 Honda Element LX - CB7Tuner Forums

                  Comment


                    #10
                    You lost me after the first couple paragraphs XD but I just shot in the dark maybe it was overheating hardcore and some internals parts can withstand heat better than others so maybe check valves and springs under the valve cover. Maybe damaged enough to affect it but not enough stop or hear it ... idk. My mechanical knowledge is rusty as I haven't opened a motor or hood in years sadly. But I'm getting back to it
                    Last edited by Cb7Legend2017; 05-29-2017, 02:24 PM.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Overheating usually leads to head gasket failure in these engines (most aluminum engines, in fact... aluminum warps pretty easily when overheated.) He got it running without issue, so that's likely not the case.

                      fleetw00d probably nailed it with the PCV valve spraying oil into the intake, which would indeed gunk up the throttle body and foul the spark plugs. If that's all it is, that's a super easy fix. Cheap, too.






                      Comment


                        #12
                        Wait were we at on this one....

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I'm resurrecting my thread because I finally got to work on the car again! It's been parked since my last post- and I had to leave town for work.

                          It started right up, ran fine, and I pulled it into the garage to do a compression test.

                          Results were:
                          ___4___3___2__1__
                          D-170-165-165-165
                          W-180-175-180-230

                          That looked pretty good to me (that 230 was an anomaly but I checked it twice), so I took it for a test drive, about 7 miles on the highway @ 70MPH. Outbound leg was 100% ok - temp gauge right in the middle.

                          Inbound leg was ok until just before I got home. Stopped at a light with a truck behind me, I could see there was a lot of steam/vapor coming out of my tail pipe...but my temp was still normal. About 40 seconds later, the temp started creeping up - and I could hear a faint hiss - after another 90 seconds of driving to my house - the temp climbed nearly to the top - and after parking it I saw that the noise was originating from vapor shooting out of the radiator overflow hose (the end in the overflow tank).

                          After it cooled down a bit I opened the radiator to see the level was now too low to see any coolant. (I have new hoses, and a new radiator - and it was previously 100% topped off and full btw). When I tried to re-start it, it ran poorly and coughed a bit before returning to somewhat normal (just ran it enough to get it out of the garage).

                          So...I'm thinking I must have a bad head gasket? I have seen no oil in my coolant or vice versa, but this still seems the likely culprit - like the gasket has let go between a cylinder and a coolant passage. Seems to me if the head was warped, my compression wouldn't test good - right? As to why/how it tested good with a bad gasket well I don't know but those are the results I got.

                          What do you folks think?

                          Comment


                            #14
                            You could have great compression and still have a blown gasket, depends on where the gasket failed. The vapor or steam blowing out the tailpipe followed by the temp creeping up suggest to me that somewhere in there youre burning coolant and fast too, but only when the thermostat opens up?

                            Very odd, you should be seeing white smoke pretty much immediately once it fires up but it seems reasonable that you have a bad head gasket that failed in between the cylinder with high wet compression and a water journal.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              What ever happened, did anyone do a follow up with 2shedsjackson?

                              Comment

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