Wagon brakes are terrible

[aluminum13]

I have a 5 speed sedan (LX). I recently got an automatic wagon (EX).

I live in the mountains. I was going down a steep hill recently in the wagon and by the bottom my brakes had faded to a scary 'oh shit I can't stop if I need to' degree.

Sure, it's an automatic, and sure, it's heavier, so I can expect that sort of thing, but any opinions on the stock wagon brake setup vs the sedan? Even on flat straight roads the brakes feel weak. It's a new (to me) car so I don't know what sort of setup is on there.

The rotors look ok and the pads look like they have plenty of life left on them. Any comments from people who have upgraded their brake setup or compared wagon to sedan?

I'm not looking for racecar performance but I can't have brakes that will burn up. Should I just work on making my stock setup as good as possible or jump ship to 5 lug etc?

[illinois_erik]

have you flushed the brakes and put in new fluid, if its black it has water in it. brake usage heats it up, the water boils and gassifys and then you have weak braking. they should bite harder than sedan and coupe brakes theyre 11.1 inches in diameter. braided stainless steel lines to replace the rubber lines will make a big difference too. if youre driving a lot of steep grades vented or vented/slotted rotors might also be beneficial. i have with my sedan fresh fluid, stainless lines V/S rotors up front, no abs and can stop on a dime even after going from 100mph to a damn near dead stop. 5 lug is moot.

[aluminum13]

have you flushed the brakes and put in new fluid, if its black it has water in it. brake usage heats it up, the water boils and gassifys and then you have weak braking. they should bite harder than sedan and coupe brakes theyre 11.1 inches in diameter. braided stainless steel lines to replace the rubber lines will make a big difference too. if youre driving a lot of steep grades vented or vented/slotted rotors might also be beneficial. i have with my sedan fresh fluid, stainless lines V/S rotors up front, no abs and can stop on a dime even after going from 100mph to a damn near dead stop. 5 lug is moot.

It's probably the smart move to give what I have a full servicing to get the best performance possible out of it before I decide to upgrade, but some of the upgrades don't look all that pricey in comparison to upgrading what I got and I'm prone to not spend the money twice (ie once on upgrading my current setup and then twice after ditching that setup for upgrades) - I know there is a ton of info out of there on the subject but I don't really know where to start. I guess before I go 5 lug what can I do with my current wheels and tires?

From what I understand the bigger brakes don't actually brake any 'harder' (in practice) they just act as a bigger heat sinks. Which apparently would be a good thing - but true I should flush the lines to make sure water is not my issue.

[CB7NWDD]

I think it's just the fact that is an auto and that you heated the ever living shit out of them coming down a mountain. I have the opposite combo from you, 5 speed wagon and an automatic coupe. My wagon has full interior, coupe is bare: nothing but front seats and it weighs in over a quarter ton lighter... Down hill i still feel more confident in my wagon simply because I can downshift and keep my speed limited and my foot off the brakes.

I would suggest flushing the brake system, new brake lines, and slotted/drilled rotors... Maybe even look into wheels that will vent a bit better. Maintenance on your 20 year old ride will FEEL like performance upgrades.

[djcaz_aom]

Ok, let me jump in here.

First, rotors look ok. Well, did you measure the run out on them and thickness?

Second, brake pads have lots of meat on them. Are they quality pads or bottom barrel? Big difference.

Lastly, the entire system needs to be bled and refilled with new fluid. Anytime you have fade, your fluid is likely at fault.

I run Wagon brakes on all my cars, to include my daily driven EJ1.

The calipers are massive and the rotors are big.

My suggestion, new rotors, pads and fluid change. Use quality parts and you will have an awesome braking system.

[XCRN]

First week I had my 5spd coupe had the same brake fade. Its all a matter of the condition of the braking hardware. When I changed the pads, they looked decent, as if they did not need to be changed. I changed my pads and everything worked out and have not experienced fade after that.

[johnl]

I live in the mountains. I was going down a steep hill recently in the wagon and by the bottom my brakes had faded to a scary 'oh shit I can't stop if I need to' degree.

What kind of braking loss? Did the pedal go soft and hit the floor, or did it remain firm but the brakes just had trouble slowing the car?

The former is caused by boiling the brake fluid, which means the fluid has absorbed water and so has a lowered boiling point. So, the fluid gets hot enough to boil and gas bubbles form. The gas is compressible so pedal travel increases, possibly to the point that you run out of pedal motion, and once this happens you can't apply enough pressure to the calliper pistons. If you're boiling the fluid then you need to completely change the fluid (I routinely do this every two or three years).

The latter is caused by the pads overheating, and when this happens the pads give off copious amounts of gas that prevent the pads from contacting the rotor surfaces adequately. You're now trying to brake with gas 'lubricated' pads, with an affect not dissimilar to having greased the pad / rotor interface.

Larger rotors will help because the larger rotor can dissipate more heat than a smaller rotor (helps to keep the pads cooler). Larger pads will also help because the larger pad will stay cooler per square cm / inch of pad surface. Higher 'performance' pads that are designed to operate at higher temperatures (than the stock pads) will help because they are more resistant to 'out-gassing' at higher temperatures, but won't have the same 'bite' at lower temperatures. Thin / worn pads may get hotter at the braking surface than thicker / newer pads.

My understanding is that the wagon brakes are the largest stock option, more or less the same as the Prelude brakes. Compared to the stock sedan brakes, the rotor is larger, and the pads have a greater surface area. If your problem is caused by overheated pads then I think you need to use 'high performance' pads.

Note that for X pedal pressure larger rotors will give a somewhat greater braking force than smaller rotors because the larger diameter has more leverage (also note that this doesn't matter if the pads overheat...).

An analogy is the torque you can exert with a long handled spanner (wrench) compared to a short handled spanner, i.e. for X effort at the end of the handle you will create more torque with a longer handled spanner than a shorter handled spanner. If you were to fit say larger front rotors but not rear rotors, then it's possible this would significantly alter the front to rear braking bias. If so then you might have a car that tends to lock up the front brakes too easily (especially on slippery surfaces), and this could possibly result in poorer braking...