CB7Tuner Forums

Go Back   CB7Tuner Forums > Beginner forum -- New members post here! > Beginner Technical/Performance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-03-2017, 02:39 AM   #1
JSui
Newcomer
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4
JSui is cool... so far.
Question Looking to do a H22A4 swap

I recently got the idea of swapping out my F engine into an H.
Heard that some parts are compatible but some are not, but not sure which.
I suppose that the engine mount and exhausts are the same, probably need to change ECU, and transmission?

I estimate this to cost me about a couple grands.

Have seen posts saying that a proper swap into a good H22 can still have compatibility problems...

PS. My turbo enthusiast friend is talking me into building a turbo on my F instead of swapping it out...
I figured a proper turbo build will cost me at least twice as much, but it will also give about twice the power...
Should I just wait a bit more and get the proper turbo? or should I do an engine swap anyways?
Any recommendations?
JSui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 07:08 AM   #2
sonikaccord
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: In Traffic
Posts: 4,136
sonikaccord seems to have made some friends!
My recommendation is to figure out which one you want to do and commit to it. Right now, straddling the fence will typically result in buyers remorse.

The H22A4 has different sensors, different injectors and I think one other thing that I can't remember at the moment. You will need an OBDI distributor with sensors, OBDI harness, resistor box and injectors at minimum to get it running. A proper swap will function just like stock, once all the bugs are worked out.
__________________
sonikaccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 08:04 AM   #3
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 40,087
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
The H22A4 is a good engine, though as mentioned, it will need to be converted to OBD1. If you can find an OBD1 (1992-1995) H22A1, it would make the swap a bit easier. People have done both, and there is a great deal of information regarding both the H22 swap and the OBD2 to OBD1 conversion here in the "Swaps" section of the forum.

You're definitely right that a proper turbo build will cost more than the H22 swap. Turbo can be done very cheaply, but the chances of blowing your engine up are good. To do it so that it will be reliable isn't cheap, and requires you to take the engine completely apart.
I'd suggest holding on to your F22A for a possible turbo build in the future. If you decide you want more power than the H22A provides, you can slowly build the F22A for turbo without feeling rushed.


Personally, though, I think I'd take an H22A over a turbo F22A. The H22A feels as if it belongs in the CB7. If you are sure to get a healthy one, it is likely to be as reliable (or more reliable) as the original engine. The amount of modification required to make it work is minimal, and the required OBD1 parts are available to convert an H22A4 to OBD1 correctly (and if you find an H22A1 or 92-95 JDM H22A, no conversion is necessary at all.) It is possible to have the car as reliable and functional as stock, only with 40-75 more horsepower (depending on which H22A you get, and which F22A you're replacing.) 200hp in a car the size and weight of a CB7 isn't terribly impressive these days, but it still makes for a car that is extremely fun to drive.
Turbo offers massive power potential, especially in an engine that is built correctly. Forged internals in a stock open-deck F22A block should be able to withstand 400whp without any significant risk. Beyond that, resleeving the block is wise. However, turbo introduces many factors that the original engineers never considered. While you can address most of these, the mere fact they exist presents an opportunity for failure. Every non-factory part you install comes with the risk of aftermarket manufacturer error, incompatibility with old, worn factory parts, and (the most common) installer error. There is also the tendency to do "good enough" (as with my mention of stock sleeves holding 400whp.) "good enough" means there was something that could have been done better. While it may not be necessary, such a decision may come back to haunt you. For example, the stock sleeves SHOULD hold 400whp, but if they don't and one cracks... your engine is toast. The expensive forged internals you put into it may also be damaged. Another downside to turbo is that more power is always within reach. If you just add this one more part and crank up the boost, you can make X more horsepower! The next thing you know, you have an 800hp drag-strip monster that you never drive on the street because it's no longer fun. Traction becomes difficult to maintain. The speed limit is exceeded in the blink of an eye. Every move you make is done carefully, so you don't lose control. Comforts such as air conditioning, cruise control, and a quiet exhaust have long since been abandoned. Turbo is a slippery slope. That's why I never went turbo on any of my cars, though I've been tempted to do it to all of them... except those that came supercharged... now that's a different story! Speaking of superchargers... if you can find a Jackson Racing supercharger for the H22A, it can be made to work in a CB7. Some modification of the brake master cylinder is necessary for clearance, but it's doable.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 02:31 PM   #4
willbill642
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Coolorado
Posts: 102
willbill642 is cool... so far.
Just to add on to what Deev said, if you do go H22a1 the 1996 model year is OBDII. I'm not sure how entirely different it is to the '93-'95 years, but it's something worth avoiding. Get a 1993-1995 engine and you'll be set.
willbill642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 03:17 PM   #5
Size9zombie
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 'Merica
Posts: 92
Size9zombie is cool... so far.
I am about to do a swap on mine also, going to an F20B, very similar to the H22. Im also planning on doing what deev suggested in holding to my F22A4 because i too am a fence stradler lol. The F20B is a better option the the H22 imo because it is an iron sleeve block instead of the frm sleeve which is notorious for chewing up steel piston rings. The F20B is more or less a destroked version of the H22 they made so they could comply with sub 2.0L taxes that some countries have.

Last edited by Size9zombie; 02-03-2017 at 03:33 PM.
Size9zombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 04:26 PM   #6
JSui
Newcomer
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 4
JSui is cool... so far.
will be reading swaps section. Thanks everyone.
JSui is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 07:03 PM   #7
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 40,087
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Size9zombie View Post
The F20B is a better option the the H22 imo because it is an iron sleeve block instead of the frm sleeve which is notorious for chewing up steel piston rings. The F20B is more or less a destroked version of the H22
Not quite, on either claim. the FRM sleeves in the h22 are stronger, lighter, and better at dissipating heat than iron. Properly maintained, the h22 can remain healthy for a very long time. The bad reputation comes from people that didn't understand proper maintenance and modification.
The f20b has many differences beyond just the cylinder lining and displacement. For example, the valves are 1mm smaller than the h22's valves (bend one, and you'll have to order new from overseas.) it's not a bad engine, but the h22 is superior in pretty much every way.
The biggest problem with the h22 (which I do not know if it is shared with the f20b) is the automatic timing belt tensioner. It tends to fail.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 07:37 PM   #8
Size9zombie
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 'Merica
Posts: 92
Size9zombie is cool... so far.
The "frm sleeve" is actually just a liner that is inserted during casting the iron cylinder sleeves, then it is bored to spec leaving a thin frm coating on the walls, so no, its not lighter and does not dissipate heat any better. If anything (and this has been proven) it makes the walls more likely to crack if you try and put any kind of power adder to it without resleeving, unlike the rest of Honda's eninges that do not have the frm coating and can just hone for reringing or bore if you are going with a bigger piston. Because of the strength of the frm lining it chews the steel rings up, because of the composition of it, it allows oil to pass the rings and get burnt, causing higher oil consumption and smoke the older the engine gets, no amount of engine maintenance can prevent this. I dont know about any difference in valve size, but the F20B is derived from the H22 engine, created to compete in the European F3 racing series. The F20B uses an H22A VTEC head and a destroked H22 bottom. It does share the auto tensioner for the t-belt. The F20B does make a little les torque and has to rev higher to make the same power as the H22. Dont get me wrong, the H22 is peppy and fun, I've had a few Preludes and thoroughly enjoyed them, I've had a 85 with the B20A5, 91 with the B21A1, a 93 and a 94 with the H22A1, loved em, all 3 of the 90s models were frm lined, ALL burned oil and smoked.

Last edited by Size9zombie; 02-03-2017 at 07:57 PM.
Size9zombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 08:50 PM   #9
deevergote
Don't call me dude.
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Not New York
Posts: 40,087
deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool... deevergote . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to deevergote
That is quite possibly the most thorough and sensible rebuttal I have ever gotten to my argument. Hats off to you, sir.
__________________






deevergote is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-03-2017, 08:51 PM   #10
Size9zombie
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 'Merica
Posts: 92
Size9zombie is cool... so far.
Thanks, 2nd generation tech, had a wrench in my hand since birth, lol.
Size9zombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2017, 02:59 PM   #11
SSMAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Little Rock, Detroit Metro
Posts: 351
SSMAccord seems to have made some friends! SSMAccord seems to have made some friends!
Send a message via Yahoo to SSMAccord
These are not my words but do with them as you wish, you can read the rest here:
http://www.hondanews.com/releases/ho...?query=prelude


PRELUDE VTEC ENGINE
The Prelude VTEC engine block and head are high-pressure die castings made with aluminum alloy. The block is an open-deck design and has an undersquare bore-stroke ratio with a 3.39-inch (87.0 mm) bore and a 3.53-inch (90.7 mm) stroke. The engine's long-stroke design allows closer cylinder-bore spacing, which helps keep overall engine length down and also yields stronger low-rpm torque. The walls of the block extend below the centerline of the crankshaft, which helps stiffen the bottom end. Additional bottom-end rigidity comes from a massive cast-aluminum bearing-cap carrier. The engine is angled back 10 degrees in its mountings for better weight distribution.

FIBER-REINFORCED METAL CYLINDER LINERS
Instead of cast iron, the Prelude engine block's cylinder liners are made of a metal-matrix composite material Honda calls fiber-reinforced metal (FRM). FRM is a mixture of carbon fiber and aluminum oxide that, when used in cylinder liners, offers several advantages over conventional cast-iron liners. For example, FRM liners transfer heat to the cylinder water jackets more rapidly. This allows engine designers to build a smaller, more compact engine and cooling system. The designer may elect to keep the same size engine, but increase its power output. Honda engine designers elected to keep engine size and power output fixed and utilize FRM's superior heat-transfer capabilities to increase engine durability.

Since FRM is a ceramic-based material (aluminum oxide is a ceramic used for spark plug insulators), it also exhibits higher wear resistance than cast iron. This results in potentially longer engine life.

Finally, FRM liners weigh less than cast-iron liners, thereby helping to minimize engine weight.

Additional examples of the durability Honda engineers have built into the Prelude engine are its gravity-cast, aluminum-alloy pistons and drop-forged steel connecting rods. The pistons receive additional cooling via a set of jets that spray pressurized oil at the underside of the piston crowns--a technique first used by Honda on its Formula-i engines.

The compression ratio is 10 to 1, and premium, unleaded fuel (96 octane RON) is specified. A knock sensor imbedded in the cylinder head detects any incipient combustion knock (detonation) and automatically retards ignition timing for safe operation.
SSMAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2017, 06:25 PM   #12
Size9zombie
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: 'Merica
Posts: 92
Size9zombie is cool... so far.
Besides the j series, (v6) the H is the heaviest, f20 utilizes the same block and head but is a little lighter due to the shorter rods and smaller crank, as well as the pistons being a bit smaller, an edit on my earlier post: the frm sleeves are lighter and transfer heat better, not much, but yes. From all of the conflicting info ive ever heard, the H weighs in around 400-500 lb and the f20a and b are slightly less. If anyone has for sure numbers on that please share.
Size9zombie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2017, 07:50 PM   #13
wagon-r
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 441
wagon-r seems to have made some friends! wagon-r seems to have made some friends!
I used to work for Honda and I had access to their MVMA specs. A wealth of information in these, including the "total dressed engine mass dry".

1995 Accord:
F22B2 (non-VTEC): 333# (151 kg)
F22B1 (SOHC VTEC): 340# (154 kg)

1995 Prelude:
F22A1: 281# (128 kg)
H23A1: 293# (133 kg)
H22A1: 317# (144 kg)

1994 Del Sol:
B16A3: 286# (130 kg)

1993 Integra:
B17A1: 311# (141 kg)
B18A1: 293# (133 kg)

2000 Integra:
B18C1: 344# (156 kg)
B18B1: 293# (133 kg)
B18C5: 344# (156 kg)

Unfortunately, the weights don't seem to be consistent from model to model. For example, I would think that the F22B2 engine would be the same weight as the F22A1.
wagon-r is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
canada , swap , turbo

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.