1991 Accord LX Race Car

[ukemike]

Originally Posted by aventari

From what I've read about the factory LSDs is that they're viscous, which means any used one is going to be about useless at this point in it's life and they're not rebuildable.

...

Was there any warning that your trans was on it's way out?? My race car grinds if I shift hard into 3rd but other than that seems good. I don't want it to blow up on the track though.
We run Redline MT90, what fluid did you have in yours?

...

Ours has been rough going into 3rd since we got it. We just take our time and baby it into gear. On the last half lap or so it started whining. You can hear it in the video that I haven't processed and uploaded yet.

We were just using the honda transmission oil which is essentially 10w30.

[aventari]

If you could get a few pics I'd love some of the brake ducting you made.

We have 1 week left and I'd like to do something this weekend before the race on our car

[ukemike]

Originally Posted by aventari

If you could get a few pics I'd love some of the brake ducting you made.

We have 1 week left and I'd like to do something this weekend before the race on our car

Okay, I kept forgetting. This one shows the duct from the sheetmetal intake I made. You can see we took out that wheel well stuff. We have a plywood splitter that isn't installed when the photo was made.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...BKeUd4OHZGRnc4

This one shows the duct running along the radius arm and tied onto the shock fork so it blows onto the disk and caliper.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By...BiTWg0SllTUk5j

I didn't have time to embed the photos. Hope this helps.

[ukemike]

We're going to change the timing belt and water pump. I have a complete kit from rockauto on the way. I'm also going to replace our leaky oil pan gasket. I've been looking around and I can't find a windage tray. Maybe a picknpull visit is in order. What else should we do while in there?

We are also replacing our burnt up transmission. We have an m2a4 on the way and a Cusco Limited Slip differential. Don't tell anyone about that last part. We are considering how we might make use of the various gear ratios we have available to make a close ratio box. If we had a 1.071 to use as 4th we'd have a near perfect set of gears. Short of finding a 92-96 Prelude VTEC with the m2f4 is there any way we might get our hands on those gears? Does someone have some laying around?

One final question. Do all of the transmissions from the H22 motors bolt right onto the F22? I saw an off hand comment on here recently that made me think some machining was needed??

[ukemike]

I never did summarize our race.
We started out well. I took the first stint of about 2 hours. At the end of it we were in 34th. My fastest lap was a 4:04. We spent some time trying to get the brakelight switch working. The light was staying on all the time. We failed to fix it so we sent Dennis out. We were in about 87th then. I went and got a new switch. When Dennis came in he couldn't get it into 1st or 2nd so he got pushed to our paddock. He was in 50th at that point. His fastest lap was a 4:01.

We decided not to rush to the Chico Picknpull to yank a tranny with handtools in hopes of getting it working in our car. Two removals and one install would have made for a long hard weekend and we probably would have messed it up. So we decided to do it right.

[baracuda]

There shouldn't be any issues swapping transmissions between H and F motors, the main thing you have to do on the H motor transmissions is to slightly bore out an already cast mounting hole, tapping said hole with the right threads and then swapping over the mounting stud from the F transmission and then putting it into the newly tapped hole on the H transmission. Maybe that's the machining comment you saw, however its a simple process with minimal tools, I did it with my f22B swap and takes less then 30mins to do.
Here's the DIY on how to do that: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=74780

For the comments on the harsh 3rd gear shifts, its a well known and a common problem with the accord transmission's 3rd gear synchros start to go bad or fail. Before my swap, my stock accord transmission could not shift into 3rd above 3k rpms or it would grind bad.

Also here is a build thread on swapping out gears and there's also a lot of info on gear ratios and talk of other gear set swaps, hope this helps some.
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=201115

[ukemike]

Originally Posted by baracuda

There shouldn't be any issues swapping transmissions between H and F motors, the main thing you have to do on the H motor transmissions is to slightly bore out an already cast mounting hole, tapping said hole with the right threads and then swapping over the mounting stud from the F transmission and then putting it into the newly tapped hole on the H transmission. Maybe that's the machining comment you saw, however its a simple process with minimal tools, I did it with my f22B swap and takes less then 30mins to do.
Here's the DIY on how to do that: http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=74780

Words cannot express my gratitude. Your timely reply will save us hours of frustration. I can just imagine us with it already installed saying, why won't the mount fit? Then having to figure out what threads are on the needed stud then getting the right tap....
Thank you.

The other link is good too.

[ukemike]

I'm way behind here.

We bought an m2s4 transmission. On ebay I found a guy in Russia in a town only about 300 miles from Mongolia that had a Cusco LSD for sale. The dollar speaks loudly in Russia and I bought the thing. It was such a trip to actually do business with and get a package from the country I grew up fearing.

We took out the old transmission. To get it out you pretty much have to disassemble everything inside the right side of the engine compartment and the right suspension. Blech. While waiting for delivery we installed the heavier clutch "stage 2" something or other and the 11 pound flywheel.

Then the new parts arrived. We opened up both the old and the new. The bottom bearing on the counter shaft on the old one looked like a bowl of pebbles not a bearing. Maybe that was the problem. The rest didn't look too bad except all the metal shavings everywhere. Anyone want to buy a slightly used transmission?

I had planned out a scheme to use gears from both to make a close ratio box. 1st, high 2nd, low 3rd, high 3rd, low 4th. Top speed would have been 115 120 but we sure would have gotten there fast. If you've read Tishock's 5th gear swap thread you already know that it wasn't going to happen. Oh well. The insides had to come completely out to access the differential. I'm glad my teammate Tedd wasn't as clueless as me because I felt I was in totally over my head.

Now the Cusco diff we got is a clutch LSD and it is wicked configurable. Depending on how you arrange the clutch disks you can choose 60%, 80%, or 100% lockup. I picked 100%. Depending on how you put the x axle in and into which holes, you can have a 2-way, 1.5-way, or 1 way, and you can select if you want it to lock up really fast or a bit slower. I picked 1-way and medium lockup speed (45% angle). If this interests you, google Cusco MZ LSD and find the factory manual. It is an amazing thing.

We had to swap the final drive gear off the old diff from the "new" tranny and onto this one then put it in. Then we had to get the main and counter shafts back in and all the shift arms and other bits. Getting the case back on was like playing Operation blind and with 20 pound pliers instead of tweezers. But we eventually succeeded. I hope.

I had to go on a backpacking trip with my son's scout troop, which nearly killed me. I'm fat and old and my knees suck and I am live at 50ft not 10,000ft. The we had to do the Marin county fair. Then I had another trip with my wife to a romantic central California spot. Saw the Hearst Castle.

So finally I got back to the car. Tedd has installed the transmission and he also finished my started timing belt and water pump replacement. I think he has the suspension mostly back together too.

So tomorrow the whole team is showing up to do lots of little things. We need to get it ready to drive and test it. If it doesn't work, we only have one full weekend before the race! Panic!!!

So I wish I had some pics to show but I hate picking up my nice phone when my hands are black with grease and dirt. So I keep skipping good photo ops.

Here is us at Thunderhill in April.

[ukemike]

We need some help. Our new transmission/clutch/flywheel install isn't working correctly. We believe it is because we cannot fully disengage the clutch. Is there a way to adjust it? The factory shop manual says it is self adjusting. I started a thread about this problem in the technical forum.

[ukemike]

Well we got it fixed. So we don't have to remove the trans again. Race in less than two weeks!


The clutch was not disengaging sufficiently. We ordered a new master and slave, but those won't arrive until Wednesday so I came up with an idea. At the max adjustment the full stroke of the clutch pedal was only getting just under 0.5" of travel of the slave piston rod. There was lots of slack in the pedal before there was enagement. I don't know why, but we fixed it. I took the bracket that connects the master cylinder rod to the pedal arm off. I took the bracket to the hard ware store and found a nut and bolt that matched the threads. We use the bolt as a guide and welded the nut onto the bracket which gave me an extra 3/8" or so of range for adjustment. Then I adjusted it like ericthecarguy on youtube showed me. Then we started it up and it shifts so smooth. Like a hot knife through butter. That clutch is lots heavier and really grabs. In one trip around the block I didn't get a chance to make the LSD work but... WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THE RACE!!!! WOOHOO!

I bet that the root of the problem was that the flywheel is too thick or the pedals are out of whack somehow. It works now though. LeMons style.

[ukemike]

I got a little bonus at work today and now I'm already thinking ahead to the next race. I'm planning on finishing out the rest of the 30hp for $500 plan. We already did the a4 header, race muffler, and the prelude ecu. Next would be the a6 cam, the a6 computer, the h23 intake, and the black box. I'll probably also replace the cat with a straight pipe and plumb in an improved intake.

I was thinking about taking the stock intake pipe and air box from the same prelude si that I get the IM from. The air box is bigger so the bigger filter will flow better. I figure if I relocate the battery to the passenger compartment there will be room for the bigger air box. I've already replaced the right headlight with a scoop for my cold air / ram inlet so I can plum that into the new air box.

I'm also figuring that instead of just buying a cam from an f22a6, I'll take the whole head. That way I get the stiffer stock springs. We rev this baby and i don't want the more aggressive cam floating the valves at speed.

So since I'll be swapping out the head anyway, I am wondering if someone sold a good but extra thin head gasket to bump up the compression a little bit. Does anyone know the thickness of the stock gasket? I found the Bismoto thin gasket and I'm considering that possibility. If I know the stock thickness I could calculate the improvement in the compression ratio to see if it is worth the $119 for the gasket. Are there other alternatives out there?

[wagon-r]

I put in a Prelude Si intake tube and air box on my car. I also put in a smaller battery, so the box fit fine without my having to move the battery to a different location. If you take out the intake resonator, it will save you about 6 pounds on the front of the car (and might even help airflow a touch).

[ukemike]

Originally Posted by wagon-r

If you take out the intake resonator, it will save you about 6 pounds on the front of the car (and might even help airflow a touch).

When we bought the car it had been hit on the front right in its only race. The resonator box was shattered. I tore it all out and used aluminum dryer hose to plumb from a modified air box to inside the fender. I blocked off the top of the space, removed the front right light, made an intake duct. Now I get a ram air effect pushing air into the intake. I know I have some closeups somewhere but I can't find them. But you can see it here.



Any thoughts or suggestions about a thin gasket?

[aventari]

Great progress!

I'll have many transmission questions for you soon


I'll quickly reply about a few things.. I have the F22A1 as well. So I put the A6 cam in with the stock A1 springs and we have no problems with valve float. You really don't want to be revving over 6500 anyway in endurance racing.
I'm really happy with the A6 cam, at first I couldn't really tell, but after getting it on track for our last race, the motor is much freer revving above 5000. It's most definitely worth it. Make sure you adjust the valves really well. I was lazy about it and first and they were so loose it sounded like a diesel.

I used an A6 intake manifold and black box, and that's a great upgrade too. I would do the H22 upper if I could do it again, but this one was free. I blocked off the EGR and all the idle compensation stuff while I was at it.

I also removed the balance shaft belts and cut down the pulley.

this


to this




For the oil pan, I dont have pics but when it was off I made some fancy trap door baffles.

When I tried to install them, they interfered with the oil pump pick up.. In the end I was able to weld a simple baffle at an angle where the shallow part of the pan radius starts curving down. It's not ideal but it's better than nothing. We still get starvation on certain left hand corners though


Next time I have the pan out I'm goign to either do something like this
http://passwordjdm.com/PasswordJDM-O...P2836C325.aspx

or better yet, cut the rear of the sump out and make it larger like this:

http://www.jegs.com/i/Moroso/710/20912/10002/-1

This is an actual sump for our F22, but it's not worth $500, and would be pretty obvious to judges

[SOHC-FTW]

You can always have the head milled iirc maximum is .040 so .030 is where I'd go just incase you ever over heat. Don't forget to replace them head bolts while your at it.

[ukemike]

We had an eventful and very hot day at Thunderhill. Trying to blog it at

picknpullracing.wordpress.com

We were in 28th at one point until we had to replace a front axle. Ended the day in the paddock covered in grease sweating away turning wrenches and in 63rd.

I'll put the whole story up here sometime this week.

[ukemike]

It was sooo hot. On Saturday we sent Tedd out first. Tedd is our experienced racer. He set the day's fast lap of 2:25. Derek, who didn't get to drive at the last race, which was also his second ever, had his pick of which turn and he took the second stint. He did great. His times started out at 2:40 and got steadily faster till he was under 2:30. But he complained of a shaking under cornering. He thought it was from the back but that didn't make sense. I was eating and missed that stop. Tedd told him to go back out and come in if it got worse. Later he did come back in. We checked the axle nuts and the left was a bit loose. We tightened it and sent him out again and it was better. Dennis was next and was getting consistent 2:27s to 2:29s. Awesome. He came in for the shake too and we tightened the nut again. He came in after about an hour. He was suffering from the start of heat exhaustion and it was shaking again. I had to suit up extra fast while Tedd and Derek attended to the car. I did about 4 laps before the shaking started to get really bad. I came in they torqued it again and I went out. I got no more than 4 and it was shaking so bad that I gave up and retired for the day.



Now if you know your stuff, you're thinking CV joint and you'd be right. A few weeks back I made a fateful decision. I thought that we'd pressed our luck too much, so I ordered a front axle off rockauto. It listed the same part for right and left side, but I believe they are different. Regardless we had a new axle ready to install. We sent Dennis and Derek for a new wheel bearing/hub (the store price for those was unbelievable). Tedd and I took apart the left side (we'd turned them and determined it was the left). We got the old axle out and started putting the new one in only to discover that the splines on the new axle were an inch too short. I wouldn't go in. So we took apart the inner joint of the old one and found the cup/spline part wasn't chewed up on the inside and we swapped it onto the old axle. It went right in. Tedd and I got dinner and met Dennis and Derek back at the track at 8:30pm. We had to hammer the bearing onto the hub and it was a very tight fit. That took an hour to get it close enough. Then I had to put it all back together. I got about 15 mosquito bites on my ankles and feet that night.



In the morning when we started the car to get Dennis out on the pre-grid the alternator belt screamed like a stuck pig. So we took a look and the whole adjusment braket was gone. It must have rattled off. We tried to use the similar bracket from the PS pump. Doesn't fit. We tried to use plumbers tape to pull it up since it is below horizontal it actually cams out a bit at the right position so that idea wouldn't work. We eventually decided to pull the alternator up as hard as we could and overtighten the mounting bolt, then re-do it at every stop. It worked. And the new axle worked. Dennis got out there 30 minutes late and beat Tedd's fast time from Saturday with a 2:24.6. Then Derek went out and did great with consistent 2:27s. Tedd went out and proved beat Dennis' time with a 2:24.1. I finally got to drive the last stint from 2 to 3:30pm. It was over 100 out by then. I Put two quart freezer bags full of ice in my suit. It handles brilliantly. Don't tell anyone at lemons but the LSD it totally transformative. If you find yourself plowing wide in a turn mash on the throttle and crank the wheel around and it will pull you back in line. The launch from slow turns was brilliant. I was able to stay ahead of a faster e30 for several laps because my turn exits speeds were so fast he could only just catch me by then end of the straights and forget about the twisty bits. By the end of the day I worked my way to to taking turn 1 flat out (well just a little lift before entering). That's about 85 and uses every bit of the track. Scary as hell. About half of the cars brake for 1 so you can pass much faster cars there. Turn 6 is another one that can be taken flat out but many slow for it. I had a blast. I have no idea how good my lap times were. I have to wait for the detailed timing data sometime this week.

We finished in 49th overall and 20th in B class with 232 laps. I was so tired for the almost 3 hour drive home.

[aventari]

Great write up! Sounds like the standard lemons experience I gotta swap my trans before our next race, Buttonwillow Oct 1st. You gonna be there?!

Being in San Diego, I can't do those up north races very much. Anything more than a 4 hour drive there and back is brutal. Sonoma is 7-8 hours and Thunderhill is 9+

[ukemike]

Originally Posted by aventari

Great write up! Sounds like the standard lemons experience I gotta swap my trans before our next race, Buttonwillow Oct 1st. You gonna be there?!

Being in San Diego, I can't do those up north races very much. Anything more than a 4 hour drive there and back is brutal. Sonoma is 7-8 hours and Thunderhill is 9+

And never the twain shall meet...

We talked about July Thunderhill versus September Buttonwillow and we chose to do Thunderhill. Time and budget kept us from doing both. Maybe next year I can encourage the team to try Buttonwillow instead so we can have an Accord Showdown. We've also considered trying the LuckyDog Racing at Laguna Seca. Racing there is a dream that I never thought I would fulfill and now it's only a fire suppression system away.

[Cb792EXbuilder]

F22a6 worth rebuilding and boosting vs. swapping a H22a1 vtec?