A rant about "saving a buck" when modifying your car.

[deevergote]

This was written in response to a Facebook post. The initial post talked about plastidip vs. vinyl, and how people criticize others for using one or the other. It evolved into a discussion about "built, not bought", and "It's my car, I'll do whatever I want with it!"

Here's what I had to say about that. It turned into quite a lengthy rant, and I feel I had some good points to make. I figured I'd share it with you guys. Discuss, agree, disagree, whatever... let me know what you think!

_____________________________________
Everything is "bought" these days. The only difference is that some people tighten the bolts themselves, and some don't.
All the rare, interesting, exotic parts that were once the things that set the true enthusiasts apart from the wannabes can now all be purchased on ebay. Copies of those parts can also be purchased, for anyone on a budget.
Now, I don't mind copies, for what they are. Personally, I'd rather be rolling around on a set of $500 wheels that I'm bound to dent and scratch, than a set of $2000 wheels. Still, the cheap knockoff copies of parts that are still on the market are actually hurting the market. If people with a 4x114.3 lug pattern keep buying Rotas and not Volks, Volk is going to stop making wheels in our lug pattern. When people lose interest in the Rotas, they'll stop making them... and that design will be lost forever to us.
Also, some cheap parts are legitimately unsafe. Cheap suspension components (like $30 "eBay" coilover sleeves) make your car dangerous not only to you, but also your passengers, and anyone in your path when you lose control.
Then you have things like turbo systems.... You can buy expensive parts and do it right, or you can buy cheap Chinese parts and see how long your stock ringlands last. When you blow that engine, it goes to the scrap heap... often the car goes along with it. That's fine, though. It was only a $1000 car to begin with, right? However, other enthusiasts see yet another car disappearing forever. Furthermore, your halfassed builds inspire others to do the same... usually with the same result.
I'm a CB7 guy, so maybe the fans of later generations haven't noticed this yet... but there will come a time when our common cars aren't so common anymore. I used to be able to find CB7s on eBay all day long. Dozens of them. The last time I searched, I found two. TWO. I used to go to work, and count how many CB7s I could see on the highway. I'd drive 15 minutes, and count just as many CB7s. Now, whenever I notice one, I feel like I'm seeing something uncommon. Now, I find myself looking for a cb7tuner.com decal on the window, because most people that have kept a 22+ year old car on the road are probably doing so because they are enthusiasts.
When you do things like remove your catalytic converter, bypass emissions components, etc... you are breaking the law. That may be fine, because your area might not have emissions inspections... yet. California didn't have emissions inspections at first either. It took enough pollution and people drawing attention to it for that to happen. Your lights are illegal? Funny colors, or HIDs blinding oncoming traffic? No problem. Police in your area don't care. Yet. Once they do, stricter laws will get passed, making it harder for everyone to pursue their hobbies. Those lawmakers won't care that the problem is a catless exhaust, or projectorless HIDs... they'll just ban aftermarket exhaust systems (or require parts with government approval, like CA does... so you can pay $700 for a generic exhaust system...), and they'll simply ban HIDs outright. But yeah... you'll probably be done with your car by then, so what does it matter to you?

So yes, when others see you doing things that make your car unsafe, unreliable, or illegal, or they see you contributing to the decline of an already rapidly declining aftermarket... they're going to say something. And they're going to be right.

Sorry for the long rant. I know the impetus for this post was plastidip vs vinyl. Mods like that are trendy, but they don't hurt anything. Things like that are truly a matter of taste and style, and as long as they are done well, don't deserve any harsh unsolicited criticism.
Personally, I like Plastidip, and yes... done right, it looks great. Done wrong, it looks no different than a standard rattle-can paintjob. Vinyl looks great when done right as well... and done wrong, has nasty bubbles and peeling edges.
To each his own. If your modifications don't affect my safety, the future legality of my vehicle, or the potential future supply of parts for my vehicle, I couldn't care less what you do with your car.

[wildBill83]

[ninethreecoupe]

The sad part of this is that most of the punks that go there instead of here probably saw your name and a long post and said screw it because they're too smart to believe any truth being told to them.

[deevergote]

Oh, I'm sure.
This one wasn't on the CB7tuner group, though. This was Accord-Nation... lazy idiots of all generations!

I love the sig, by the way!

[STREET-SPEC]

1 volcano eruption causes more pollution than all the cars since the beginning of cars. The whole thing about cars putting holes in the atmosphere is bs. It's all about money. Just like recycling. You think your saving the planet by recycling? Your wrong! The only thing that saves energy and money is aluminum. Because of one guy, everyone thought we were running out of landfill, and we must recycle to save our land and atmosphere. Know who that is? The fucking guy that started the recycling business. Recycling anything besides aluminum, cause more energy wasted, MORE pollution and costs US TAXPAYERS MORE MONEY. Now if you don't help this piece of shit make his business, you get fined. Why? Cause everyone believes that bs just like cars causing smog increase.

And deeve, you contradicted yourself. U say volk won't make any wheels if WE keep buying rotas,who are copycats. But then you say you'd rather buy rotas cause they are cheaper. So you want US to buy volks, while you buy rotas? Just like the intake thread just posted. You told the guy if he's not in Cali, to go with cheap knockoffs. If AEM didn't make the original designs, the knockoffs would have nothing to copy. So thanks a lot for helping put AEM out of business by telling people to buy from copycat piece of shit company's.

[deevergote]

Ah, a challenge, eh?

I did not contradict myself. I did say that I would rather drive around on cheap copies than expensive originals. However, that doesn't mean I condone that purchase. Also, not every original that is copied is still in production. If a product is no longer in production, I wholeheartedly encourage copycats.
And for the record, I have never owned $2000 wheels, nor have I ever purchased a knockoff version of $2000 wheels. I've only used wheels that cost under $150 per wheel, and only original designs.

In terms of automotive pollution, yes... a volcano produces more pollution than automobiles. Heart disease also kills more people than AIDS... but that doesn't mean we should discount one problem just because another dwarfs it.


Smog. That's what smog looks like in California, where the emissions laws are strictest. There is a VERY good reason for emissions laws and equipment.
I live in NJ, where laws aren't quite as strict... but they're not terribly lenient, either. A number of studies have shown that the increasing level of air pollution in NJ can be closely correlated to a rise in asthma and other respiratory issues among NJ residents.
I suppose that's just due to the abundance of active volcanoes in New Jersey and California.

AEM has their market. California, and anyone that wants to comply with California laws (as they often are adopted by other states eventually.) Also, their specific designs are not copied. An intake is an intake. A pipe is a pipe. And if you don't want your piece of shit intake to damage your engine... you can buy an AEM filter. I've probably indirectly sold enough AEM filters to people with generic intakes on this site to warrant a commission check from AEM.


If you are unable to have an intelligent discussion without attacking me, please refrain from visiting my site.

[TheFunk]

And deeve, you contradicted yourself. U say volk won't make any wheels if WE keep buying rotas,who are copycats. But then you say you'd rather buy rotas cause they are cheaper. So you want US to buy volks, while you buy rotas? Just like the intake thread just posted. You told the guy if he's not in Cali, to go with cheap knockoffs. If AEM didn't make the original designs, the knockoffs would have nothing to copy. So thanks a lot for helping put AEM out of business by telling people to buy from copycat piece of shit company's.

The economy is always changing and selling high quality items for a large amount of money isn't as appealing as it always was. The majority or Americans can't afford the "top of the line" brands so they buy a cheaper alternative because a cheaper alternative exists.
Although it sucks to see the companies doing things right going out of business, that's just part of the game. Selling cheap stuff can make you a lot of money, and saves others a lot of money.
The AEM, Volk, etc. brands may not be making money forever, but the name will always live on because there will always be the small percentage of people who can afford the fancy brand... And sit high on their throne and talk shit about everyone else with their "copycat" wheels.

Don't get me wrong, I REALLY want some legit BBS RS wheels, but I'd rather roll on Rota's and still have enough money for food and the things I need.

[deevergote]

You're missing my point entirely.

The point is that the copycat brands are driving the legitimate brands out of business, or at least out of our market. Sooner or later, there won't be any original brands for the copycats to copy.

The whole attitude of "it's the best I could afford" is what is killing the whole automotive tuning scene. Especially for low-cost vehicles like ours.
If you can't afford the real thing, you buy a cheap copy. That cheap copy won't last. It might not be as effective. If might not even be safe. But it's all you can afford, so you buy it. Rather than supporting the innovators that are constantly creating new and better products, we buy copies of their products. When they see that there is no money to be made in producing parts for us, they stop. We're left with the copies. Inferior copies that will never evolve. They will never improve. There will never be a better version coming along. Eventually, the copies will stop being made... and we will be left with nothing. Nobody making new parts, and nobody copying the old. At that point, if we want upgrades, they'll have to be custom... and that gets very expensive.


I'm not saying don't buy a cheap intake. I'm not saying don't buy $500 wheels.
I'm not saying everyone needs to buy top of the line products, or nothing at all.

I'm saying it's important to think of the impact of our actions. As I mentioned, buying cheap copies of existing products will result in the disappearance of new innovations for our platform. Buying poorly made products just because they are cheap can drastically reduce the reliability or safety of your vehicle. Ignoring the laws put in place, whether or not you agree with them, will only influence lawmakers to make them even more strict. Carelessly flaunting parts that are illegal in some areas, but not your area, is a great way to get those parts to become illegal in your area.

There is a lack of forethought and responsibility in the actions of current-day tuners. People want the cheap, easy way out. They want immediate gratification, rather than long term options that are socially, legally, and environmentally responsible.

"It's all I could afford" is a poor excuse for running $50 coilover sleeves on blown stock shocks. The parents of the child you couldn't avoid hitting won't accept that reason. The lawmakers that realize the death of that child was due to your modification won't bother differentiating between $50 sleeves and a quality $800 full coilover setup. They'll just made any aftermarket suspension system illegal on public roads. Problem solved.

"It's all I could afford" might be great when you buy a knockoff Hytech H22A header... but once Hytech realizes nobody is buying their parts, they're not going to bother making them anymore. Once the guy copying the design moves on to something else, what are we left with? Thankfully, Hytech does indeed still make an H22A header. Which is good... because you can no longer buy the other big names... SMSP, RMF, Mugen... all names of the past now.

Wheels are a little less of an issue. Wheels aren't platform-specific. While it's still an issue, it's an issue that is diffused over multiple platforms. Real wheels will always be desirable among enthusiasts, and anyone that cares can tell the difference between "real" and copies. I still encourage the purchase of real-deal wheels... but most people buying Rotas aren't trying to pass them off as the real thing. Volk PROBABLY isn't going out of business because people are buying Rotas. However, Volk might stop producing the TE37 in 4x114.3 because the majority of people with that quickly-disappearing lug pattern would rather buy the Rota Grid instead. Once that happens, if you want a TE37, you might have to spend another $500+ to convert to 5 lug, in addition to the extravagant cost of the wheels!


"So yes, when others see you doing things that make your car unsafe, unreliable, or illegal, or they see you contributing to the decline of an already rapidly declining aftermarket... they're going to say something. And they're going to be right."
Take a minute to ponder this statement. Think about which side of that coin you're on. If you object to that statement, you may very well be part of the problem.
Sadly, most people will readily admit to that, and still simply say they don't care. By the time the effects of that "I don't care" attitude are felt by the community, those that are responsible will have moved on. Either they will have moved away from the the aging platform, or they will have moved on from tuning altogether.



I've been doing this for 12 years. The majority of it has been on this forum, where I have been since the very beginning. I have seen the changes, and I have seen the reasons behind the changes.

[CyborgGT]

I liked this post on SpeedHunters

First off, let's state clearly, FAKES are not equal to REPLICAS. We will talk about replicas now.

Replicas do not hurt the market in any way, on contrary, they provide for DEMAND. If RAYS and co. would make CAST versions of their FORGED wheels there would be no market for replica makers.

Note that most wheels by for example RAYS or WORK that are actually CAST in original form (such as the 57D or the XD9) are not replicated due to already being in a reasonable price range. RAYS and WORK have used BBS designs for their wheels as well, however they have never gotten a bad reputation because they were made FORGED. FORGED wheels are potentially lighter and stronger, but CAST wheels only cost a fraction. Many motorsports teams on a budget choose CAST wheels. FORGED wheels don't break, they bend. CAST wheels are the same for RAYS, WORK and ROTA, if put under unnatural stress they may break.

Every concern regarding the main 2 aspects in this discussion about QUALITY (i.e. forged vs cast) and DESIGN can be argued against with the existing demand and the fact that the original manufacturers will not produce them. In 99% of all cases you will find that the original version of replicated wheels are FORGED and have a popular design (there are exceptions).

You can make analogies to all kinds of things with all aspects above. Like 300 dollar suit vs 5000 dollar suit.

The only thing you shouldn't do is passing replicas as the original. As for the rest there is nothing wrong with Replicas.

[H311RA151N]

Everyone wants a million dollar car for $5.

[ninethreecoupe]

Oh, I'm sure.
This one wasn't on the CB7tuner group, though. This was Accord-Nation... lazy idiots of all generations!

I love the sig, by the way!

Oh they aren't limited to Facebook Sometimes I feel like it's my duty to troll some of the people that ask ridiculous/lazy but serious questions but at the same time I think it's best to just let them try out the dumb things that people say so they can figure out how to do it the right way next time.

I've noticed lately that I've been pretty irritated with the car scene as a whole and how annoying trends are. You can't scroll through Instagram or just about any car site now without seeing at least one or two cars with rs/riken/92 mesh style wheels and it's just like SERIOUSLY?! That style wheel has been going on for decades and all of a sudden a couple cool kids have them and now they're happy crack. Like kids today that wear their socks up to their shins, you dumbasses know your grandpa has been rocking that style for probably 25 years right??

I don't think it's the individual product that gets me its that for some reason people just can't have the slightest bit of originality or personal touch to their cars. I know at this point it's hard to do something different but it doesn't even necessarily need to be against the grain to stand out. People want to get caught up in these trends and end up buying whatever the quickest route to do it is (cheap knockoff parts) and pay for it in the end.

I get what your saying though. For example, whatever Chinese company made my clear bumper lights isn't really taking over any company's original design. If I bought an OBX ramhorn-style header that was copied off whoever then there isn't a reason for the big companies to put in the effort or money in designing new products. Especially if there's a new company with a small budget and innovative design, it get's copied by a more well-known copycat company and the original one dies.

And speaking of wheels and such, I like to go to this site and oogle sometimes.

http://www.icbmotorsport.com/

[owequitit]

Ah, a challenge, eh?

I did not contradict myself. I did say that I would rather drive around on cheap copies than expensive originals. However, that doesn't mean I condone that purchase. Also, not every original that is copied is still in production. If a product is no longer in production, I wholeheartedly encourage copycats.
And for the record, I have never owned $2000 wheels, nor have I ever purchased a knockoff version of $2000 wheels. I've only used wheels that cost under $150 per wheel, and only original designs.

In terms of automotive pollution, yes... a volcano produces more pollution than automobiles. Heart disease also kills more people than AIDS... but that doesn't mean we should discount one problem just because another dwarfs it.


Smog. That's what smog looks like in California, where the emissions laws are strictest. There is a VERY good reason for emissions laws and equipment.
I live in NJ, where laws aren't quite as strict... but they're not terribly lenient, either. A number of studies have shown that the increasing level of air pollution in NJ can be closely correlated to a rise in asthma and other respiratory issues among NJ residents.
I suppose that's just due to the abundance of active volcanoes in New Jersey and California.

AEM has their market. California, and anyone that wants to comply with California laws (as they often are adopted by other states eventually.) Also, their specific designs are not copied. An intake is an intake. A pipe is a pipe. And if you don't want your piece of shit intake to damage your engine... you can buy an AEM filter. I've probably indirectly sold enough AEM filters to people with generic intakes on this site to warrant a commission check from AEM.


If you are unable to have an intelligent discussion without attacking me, please refrain from visiting my site.

Sorry Mike, but you are perpetuating a large part of the propaganda with your assertions about smog in LA.

1) The air quality in LA is measured ROUTINELY at several orders of magnitude better than in the 1970's. We have reached the law of diminishing returns, where each incremental gain is costing exponentially more.

2) Your photo is misleading because what they don't tell you about LA air quality (probably because a lot of the proponents don't understand it), is that LA is unique because it is in a sea level basin and is surrounded on 2 sides by mountains that range from 5,000' tall to just under 12,000' tall. It is literally a wall of mountains that extends down to San Diego, with but 2 passes in it. Cahone Pass and Banning pass (Probably wouldn't fly through Cahone, and Banning is narrow enough that you could easily hit a mountain on either side.

The reason this is significant is because the prevailing weather patterns in LA on certain days push pollution into the valley (on shore flow from the Pacific) where it hits the mountains and stops. This tends to trap it in the valley. Of course. That is discountng any component of that picture that is related to haze, non-automobile pollution or reduced visibility due to the interaction between warm air and the cold Pacific. There are many other days where the visibility in LA is just fine and looks nothing like that.

[Lucien]

What I see with these cheap builds and questions are a bunch of kids that don't know how to save money to buy something they really want. Instant gratification is a bitch once it's ingrained in a person's mind.

I blame the parents. The people that build quality cars are the ones that know what it means to earn and save and get real satisfaction from achieving their goal. That's what should be encouraged. People, in general, don't respond well to criticism of their ideas. You catch more flies with honey.

As far as pollution and global warming is concerned, people that claim to have the answers as to the cause or the solution, don't. We simply don't have a great enough span of data to make anything more than a semi educated guess.

[cb7 calling]

I don't like the implication that it's my responsibility to keep any company in business, or even in a certain market. Where does that end? The original being the best! That's a matter of opinion in almost every case. I hope you have a samsung tv and only by Electrolux vacuums, Maytag washer, dryer, stove and refrigerator. You should only wear Jordan's to play basketball, and 800 dollar suits to work.
If you don't you are spending your money wrong, that money belongs in the hands of the original proprietor of a certain product as long as they are still at the top of their game in most peoples opinion? How about stop buying accords or BMW will quit making the three series.
Hondas are killing the scene! (These are real opinions of someone)

[deevergote]

Sorry Mike, but you are perpetuating a large part of the propaganda with your assertions about smog in LA.

1) The air quality in LA is measured ROUTINELY at several orders of magnitude better than in the 1970's. We have reached the law of diminishing returns, where each incremental gain is costing exponentially more.

2) Your photo is misleading because what they don't tell you about LA air quality (probably because a lot of the proponents don't understand it), is that LA is unique because it is in a sea level basin and is surrounded on 2 sides by mountains that range from 5,000' tall to just under 12,000' tall. It is literally a wall of mountains that extends down to San Diego, with but 2 passes in it. Cahone Pass and Banning pass (Probably wouldn't fly through Cahone, and Banning is narrow enough that you could easily hit a mountain on either side.

The reason this is significant is because the prevailing weather patterns in LA on certain days push pollution into the valley (on shore flow from the Pacific) where it hits the mountains and stops. This tends to trap it in the valley. Of course. That is discountng any component of that picture that is related to haze, non-automobile pollution or reduced visibility due to the interaction between warm air and the cold Pacific. There are many other days where the visibility in LA is just fine and looks nothing like that.

You're missing my point, Scott.
My point wasn't that we're suffering from horrible smog issues. The picture was merely for effect.

You said it yourself... our air quality has improved since the 70s. Why? Because of catalytic converters and other emissions control devices.
Granted, if every enthusiast in the US were to remove their emissions control devices, the effect would probably not be measurable. HOWEVER, it will be illegal. If it generates enough notices among lawmakers, stricter laws will be passed, and our hobbies will be affected.

My point is that people are modifying their cars irresponsibly. Years ago, people that did so were given a hard time by more experienced enthusiasts who knew better. These days, the people who know better have largely moved on. Anyone who criticizes an irresponsible modification gets attacked for it. They are a "hater". The attitude of "It's my car, I can do what I want with it" is prevalent, regardless of the impact it has on others (safety, environment, aftermarket, laws...)