f22a turbo with water/menthanol max hp

[deevergote]

If your F22 is in a project car, and you can afford the time and money to blow it up, go for it! If meth injection really will extend the life of a stock-internal F22A, then at least that's another option to suggest to people. Some people just refuse to open the engine (I think it scares them), so they only notice the stock-block turbo setups that haven't blown up (yet), and ignore the warnings of others. I suppose it would be nice to be able to say "you could at least use a meth injection setup to keep it alive a little longer!" (even though a meth injection system will usually cost just as much as a set of inexpensive forged pistons, and require nearly as much learning and wrenching to install properly!)

I'm curious to see your results. I say give it a shot. If it blows, it blows!

[Grumpys93]

Didn't chessboxer use meth? Btw where is your turbo mounted? Underneath?

[deevergote]

It's been so long ago, I can't remember. I'll have to ask him. He just resurfaced after years of being away! He was stock-block, too. Though the dipshit that bought the car from him managed to blow it up in a matter of weeks.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Yeah, rebuilding does scare me in a way. Cost wise and time especially. I dont trust anyone touching my car just me. Guess I just have trust issues. Import tuners/builders here cant even give you a chipped ecu thats not burned after waiting in there shop for 3 Hours!!!! And tuners here want their buddies cars to be faster than any of the competition. Peoples cars get sent into the shop then a week later shop reports "theft break in". What a joke. What is innovation without competition?? I guess if i ever go fully built down the road I can make use of the meth kit on the forged setup.

Turbo is mounted with a mini ram. As low as where A/C compressor would be.

So many ways and so many different setups. Not enough time. Yeah ill post up results once the meth/ injection kit comes in. Need to get everything hooked up and find a head for my spare f22 block to fire her up and knowing shes good in case my test engine fails sooner than expected. That way ill have minimum downtime. Got to refresh my researched memory of tuning with meth/water

[98vtec]

there is no HP limit, per sae. There is too much involved in determining the limit. Turbine AR (small turbine housing will really restrict the exhaust and put a damper on the incoming intake stroke which will effect the following combustion event and pistons...yada yada), manifold design and its ability to allow the wastegate to do its job, general engine health, fuel quality (93octane from one pump doesn't always = 93 octane from another), ignition, fuel spray pattern (not using modern injectors)....blah blah. all play a big role.

People were amazed when my stock bottom h22a went for a year at 400whp and the compression test never changed. I parted the car out and the short block is in someone elses car now and still running great.

it is a systematic and well thought out approach. if you throw some random "kit" on it, don't expect to achieve great results or for the engine to take it.

[deevergote]

Yeah, rebuilding does scare me in a way. Cost wise and time especially. I dont trust anyone touching my car just me. Guess I just have trust issues. Import tuners/builders here cant even give you a chipped ecu thats not burned after waiting in there shop for 3 Hours!!!! And tuners here want their buddies cars to be faster than any of the competition. Peoples cars get sent into the shop then a week later shop reports "theft break in". What a joke. What is innovation without competition?? I guess if i ever go fully built down the road I can make use of the meth kit on the forged setup.

Turbo is mounted with a mini ram. As low as where A/C compressor would be.

So many ways and so many different setups. Not enough time. Yeah ill post up results once the meth/ injection kit comes in. Need to get everything hooked up and find a head for my spare f22 block to fire her up and knowing shes good in case my test engine fails sooner than expected. That way ill have minimum downtime. Got to refresh my researched memory of tuning with meth/water

As long as you have the space and tools to do your own work, the only people that should ever touch your engine without your presence would be machinists. As long as everything is properly machined to spec, you could assemble everything yourself. If you've never done it, a $80 Helm manual would be all you'd need to do it correctly. The only way you could mess it up is if you rush things, or try to use incorrect tools.
Just remember that if you ever plan to build a block that was previously damaged due to the failure of internal parts, you may need to resleeve (not to mention the potential damage to the crank and head, depending on what failed, and how severely.) It's always cheaper to build BEFORE failure, unless you're planning an all-out performance overhaul.

As for tuning... I could see the tuners wanting their buddies to be faster... but that's a sign of a poor businessman. It will be beneficial to them to have 3 dozen fast cars on the road singing their praise, than just one or two, and a handful of cars that are "ok". Still, a quality experienced tuner that is working with software and hardware that he's familiar with shouldn't EVER give a sub-par product.
My tuner was a friend of mine. Chipped my ECU right in front of me in less than 30 minutes, and he was absolutely meticulous. He actually redid some of the factory solder points just because he wasn't happy with the way they looked! We were pressed for time, and didn't have all the tools he needed... so he did his best with what he had to work with. Still, he kept me informed, and let me make all decisions. And that's the way he handled every one of his customers, friend or not. (this was MRX from this forum... he's long since been out of the game, and moved from FL to OR...)

there is no HP limit, per sae. There is too much involved in determining the limit. Turbine AR (small turbine housing will really restrict the exhaust and put a damper on the incoming intake stroke which will effect the following combustion event and pistons...yada yada), manifold design and its ability to allow the wastegate to do its job, general engine health, fuel quality (93octane from one pump doesn't always = 93 octane from another), ignition, fuel spray pattern (not using modern injectors)....blah blah. all play a big role.

People were amazed when my stock bottom h22a went for a year at 400whp and the compression test never changed. I parted the car out and the short block is in someone elses car now and still running great.

it is a systematic and well thought out approach. if you throw some random "kit" on it, don't expect to achieve great results or for the engine to take it.

It's very true that there are MANY factors to be taken into consideration. In general, horsepower is often the best "simple" way to determine an engine's limits (far better than the all-too-common arbitrary PSI rating... "a stock F22A can handle 10psi!"... bullshit.) But yes, the more things that are taken into account, the longer the internal parts MIGHT last.
As I mentioned, I've seen some pretty ghetto builds last for much longer than they should have (Accord R33's original DSM setup, for example... boosted for over a year on $400 worth of junkyard parts... and he learned how to tune on that engine.) I've also seen some very well put together setups fail in a very short time.

Boosting on stock internals is like having sex. You can time it right and be careful without protection and not get the girl pregnant. You can pick your partner carefully, not use protection, and not get herpasyphilaids. Or you can drastically limit your chances of an unwanted outcome by simply using protection.
The other option is to simply not put a turbo on the engine. No turbo-relate casualties have ever come from non-boosted engines

[f22ax_Rocks]

Couldnt agree more with both of you. Too many variables at play to have something solid or constant. Yeah I did about 7 hours of intense researching yesterday too about rebuilds. It's mainly machine work that you cant do yourself. Engine rebuilding seemed scary to me 5 years ago but now going back to watch the videos its pretty basic and straight foward. Just got to be organized and measure properly.

Prices of good measuring tools are what scare me most now knowing. I already have some tools required like feeler gauge and straight edge.

Im most uncertain on micrometers, dial indicator, dial caliper, and dial bore gauge. Do you guys have any experienced with these tools as far as cost, measurement accuracy and durability goes? What are good and accurate tools without breaking the bank?

[93redcb7]

Couldnt agree more with both of you. Too many variables at play to have something solid or constant. Yeah I did about 7 hours of intense researching yesterday too about rebuilds. It's mainly machine work that you cant do yourself. Engine rebuilding seemed scary to me 5 years ago but now going back to watch the videos its pretty basic and straight foward. Just got to be organized and measure properly.

Prices of good measuring tools are what scare me most now knowing. I already have some tools required like feeler gauge and straight edge.

Im most uncertain on micrometers, dial indicator, dial caliper, and dial bore gauge. Do you guys have any experienced with these tools as far as cost, measurement accuracy and durability goes? What are good and accurate tools without breaking the bank?

honestly i would pay the machine shop to do a short block assembly, they have better tools than you will likely ever have a need for.
hot tank--65
install sleeves--800
surface block---75
line hone---250
blue print oil system---100
custom grind crank----125
file fit rings----85
assemble short block---400
balance assembly---225
new crank---150+shipping(22)
all bearings 185.51+shipping(13.47)
3 angle valve grind--196.95
bowl hog seats---80
surface head---45
.5mm OS valves---160+shipping 12.19
haz waste---10
fry cut pistons and re-assemble----180

that was my machine bill, you likely dont really need all of that but i just copied and pasted from my posts

[f22ax_Rocks]

Tools can be expensive but ill probably do at least 10+ more engine rebuilds in the future. Maybe invest in some Mitutoyo tools

Interesting build with prices thx. That helps a lot. Maybe I will decide to go that route if fully building..

What's your specific build and how much hp/tq are you getting from yours?

edit: nevermind i see your build and all the parts list. Exactly what I wanted to do one day besides you going with gtx28 and me gt3071r. Have you thought about the gtx3071r with twin scroll and twin scroll mani because of what you plan to do with car? Fitment probably might be an issue on those two parts for you. Either way its a nice build and I cant wait to see it done. F-22 Raptor!!!!

[f22ax_Rocks]

How funny, I was actually following your build without knowing it was you. Trying to get my post count past 30 so I can chime in on opinions for the catch can and coolant line question you asked.

Catch can is a MUST. Your forged pistons ring #1 end gap and #2 ring end gap most likely got filed to allow bigger end gaps so that each ring end doesn't kiss with the other end during thermal expansion. Bigger gaps cause more blow-by into crank and increase crank pressure possibly blowing seals. Excessive blow-by can/ will go into crankcase and come back up into combustion chamber but this time with thug buddies called oil vapors. Those oil vapor thugs love stealing octane. Leading to possible detonation.

On top of all this you have greater piston to wall clearances. Not sure if your forged pistons are 4032 AL(more silicon=less themal exp) or 2618 AL(less silicon more expansion). I thought Bisi spec Arias are mainly 4032 but I could be wrong. Either way still needs bigger piston to wall clearance than oem cast for more higher boost/hp and thermal expansion. Greater piston to wall clearance leads to even more blow-by going down and bringing thug buddies back up. Although not sure how much blow by will come back because your pistons will expand and seal when engine gets to operating temps. Either way you mainly want to capture/ bypass oil vapors entering pcv valve from going into intake manifold and traveling down into combustion chamber.

HOW TO:
Delete Positive crank case ventilation valve. Run hose from PCV valve grommet on valve cover to catch can(highest area on catch can). Of couse we all know u need some kind of 90* fitting from grommet to hose or open pcv valve and reuse empty shell. Run other cranks case vent opening on valve cover (side that utilized venturi vacuum and goes to intake tube) to catch can(high area too). Then the outlet(another high area location) of catch can goes right before compressor housing on the inlet intake pipe. Of course we all know the pipe will need a fitting on it for the hose to fit on. The closer to compressor fins the better the pull.

All that just to burn some hydrocarbons, stop possible detonation, decrease crank case pressure and catch oil vapors. Well worth it. If you want more of that stuff to get sucked out you can tap the catch can and run semi rubber hose to metal tubing and run that into the exhaust using Bernoulli's principle. You make a 45* cut and venturi type of vacuum with form. More other ways but these are most cost effective and simple



Ghetto crap drawing of Bernoulli's principle:


___l l_________________<--outter exh. tube
. l l
. l l
. l / <--- that 45* cut of steel tube into exh tube



Exhaust gas flows this way --->> creating a vacuum to help pull out vapor and blow by. Same as if a truck passes you by one the road. You can feel a pull after it passes you

________________________<--outter exh. tube



Coolant lines: Always follow flow of coolant. On thermostat housing use the nearest fitting thats pointing straight up. I think its the one that sends coolant to IACV (1/4" or 5/16"). Not sure, its been years and cant double check because car is 800 miles away ATM. But either way I know its the fitting that's pointing straight up and near the 12mm bleeder screw. Hose goes from that fitting to coolant inlet on Turbo CHRA. Coolant outlet from Turbo CHRA goes to the 1/4"-5/8" fitting on the rear 1.25"-1.5" metal coolant tube that runs to water pump. If you don't want the turbo coolant outlet hose routing back up and over your engine into the metal tube you can also tap turbo coolant outlet hose into lowest point of radiator core. I did both and didnt notice problems with either or. BB turbo still works fine <knock on wood>

Im sure you know most of this stuff and dont mean to be dead specific on certain things but its just in case a super noob like me comes across this issue. The water lines are "mainly" used on the turbo because after engine shut down. After engine shut down the water slowly runs through the turbo to prevent coking. Forgot proper term for it. Eh whaterver. Some will say its not needed if you have a turbo timer but I say it is and hell you spend that much on it get your monies worth guys!!
Turbo time+ water lines equal 2x the win!!!

Not sure if any of this makes sense right now. Its 3 am here. If need more info i can post up ghetto diagram

but its my thread so oh well

[93redcb7]

yes i thought about a 3071 but i dont need more than 400hp, after that its just traction issues, even though at that ill probably still have issues. and i got the 2863 for a killer deal.
and thanks for all the other info

[f22ax_Rocks]

Yeah that understandable. Can't pass up a good deal.

I know what u mean on traction issues. Mid engine ftw. Issues solved for now.

[Accrdwgnguy]

Just to throw a wrench in your argument deev, since it's your go to in these type of threads. From what I understand, pistons are not the weak link. What happens under boost is the rings expand with more pressure and heat, once the ring gap closes and the ends butt together, well they have to go somewhere so the weakest link, the cast aluminum piston, shatters as the steel ring continues to expand. So, your best bet for boost on a budget is to open the block up, pull the pistons out and file the ring ends to open up the gap.

Would I do it on my only DD that I rely on to get to work on time? Uhhhh no. A toy? You betcha.

[deevergote]

Both the pistons AND the rings are susceptible to expansion, as neither is designed for use with turbo.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Im not an engineer of thermal expansion. Its correct that both(ring and piston) will expand as hp/boost increases due to heat etc etc. For me, its hard to say what will expand more the rings or pistons. From what Ive researched rings are made of steel or high carbide steel with moly or nitrile or something. Im sure your oem rings are not made of these. I could be wrong. Not cutting anyones words or being an egotistical smart ass. Just here to learn all i can about anything or everything. Oem pistons are mainly aluminum and rings are cast or steel. So judging that aluminum soaks heat and expands more than both cast and steel. It leads me to conclude that the pistons expands more than the rings, due to difference of thermal expansion of different metals. If i'm right more than factory hp from boost etc etc will expand the pistons causing pistons to push the rings out into a oval form instead of rings maintaining its circular form. That oval form will make the ring most outer end gaps hit the sleeves and scuff it and seat unevenly with ringlands. So we should increase piston to wall by .004"-.006" like what they do for forged pistons to avoid p2w issues.

Or if the case was vice verse, the rings will expand more than the pistons causing rings to bite into the ringland, pistons and themselves. Then semi weld itself into ringlands and cause failure. I guess either way its a shit hole unless we where to increase piston to wall by like say .004"-.006" and increase end gaps. Guess the water vapor from meth/ water injection will not only decrease. minimize detonation but also carry heat away with it. Resulting in less thermal expansion.

First its best to replace rings with a more sophisticated ring with better materials. Then its best to slightly increase p2w clearance and slightly increase end gap and use water/ meth. But then agian if engine is already disassembled one should just forge and get it all over with.

"MY" personal theory to this is without the other factors such as oil vapors, tuning, detonation etc etc involved due to say a properly tuned water methanol kit was used and installed.

bottom line is hp/ tq kills no matter what.

wish we where all rich and had time on our hands to test out everything multiple times then come up with a single strong conclusion. if only if only. damn variables wish we could keep them constant

correct me if im wrong guys as i want any info that helps me visualize how rings work!!!