f22a turbo with water/menthanol max hp

[f22ax_Rocks]

Who here runs methanol injection with their stock block and head f22a turbo accords. Curious as to who made most hp/tq on it. As I know ringland are weakest link on these blocks. But I've search and ringlands mainly go out due to detonation and a few other factors. Mainly detonation. I'm wondering if anybody had any experience with this? Again stock blocks using method/water inj?

[deevergote]

Ringlands will fail in a reasonably short time, regardless of whether or not you're experiencing detonation. Regardless of what the horsepower limit is, you'd be wise to stay FAR from it.

If you hope for a stock block to last for longer than a few months, keep your power goals low. Use a larger turbo that doesn't build much boost below 3000rpm, so you can still drive essentially out of boost when you're not looking for power. Use the largest intercooler you can fit, and be sure to run appropriately sized fuel injectors (and an upgraded pump.) Meth injection isn't necessary, and I doubt anyone here with a budget stock block setup is even using it. It may help... but it's not very well documented, if at all.

It would be easier to just replace the pistons with forged pieces. If you do that, you'll be able to make plenty of power (more than you'd really be able to use effectively on public roads) and still be well within the limits of the stock sleeves (which are your next weak spot, being of an open deck design.)

[f22ax_Rocks]

Not going against you but my reasearch shows detonation is the #1 issue, heat, super rich mixtures, super lean, then crank case vapors/blow by.

Using a GT3071R and been running for 2 hard years on my own personal tune using Neptune RTP. I have thermal heatshield intake gasket, APR head studs, 255 walbro and 550cc that are only at 20-25% duty cycle on 7.8psi. Head fully washed, resurfaced and carbon from valves and pistons all cleaned up. It only makes 217whp and 200tq right now but im going to venture out to maybe 280-300. Id go for 300-350 but she has 240k miles on her right now. Not sure if im going to run a very big intercooler as the Water/meth injection will solve all my issues with air temps and turbo utilizes a good size compressor housing so I get cooler air and more cfm with less boost. Got a perrin catch can for crankcase vapors. She is also in a light EG hatch too so thatll take lots of load off her at any rpm range making my engine work less hard. Got to count in every factor possible hahaha. Need to rework and refab a new turbo manifold too for less exhaust reversion.

I know these engines werent design for turbos in the first place but their 8.8:1 compressions are ideal for boost. And I dont want to run forged internals just yet because Im plaaning a J32 build and because ill want to resleeve while im at it and so forth. Then before I know it there goes 5-10K.
And those forged expand a lot too and need proper piston to wall clearance etc etc.

Just wanted to see if anyone had first hand experience using water/meth and running till something gives up on that oem block. Just to help give me some assurance. Probably just have to try it out for myself and report the results using a 50/50 water/meth ratio. I know its not ideal but it does decrease risks of detonation by A LOT, if used properly, and helps if I ever get a bad batch of gas. Passed compression test just needs a leak down test. Then off to order my EGT gauge/ probe

[93redcb7]

the water meth kit is great for lowering temps and raising octane. Now for the point that it will help your motor it likely wont with that 3071, you should be able to run 25+ lbs before you have issues with octane limits, and as long as you have a good intercooler you shouldnt be having heat issues with such low boost.

as for the j swap in a civic, terrible idea if its a daily driver as the motor sticks out of the hood, so either you cant run a hood or you have to cut a hole in it. and to me that just sounds like a theifs dream.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Thanks for all the knowledgeable replies, I appreciate it.

Ill prob still run water/meth kit for extra precautions because im going to up the boost to 11-14. Which ever get me to 280-300. Kind of a better safe than sorry. Even though Im at low boost or moderate detonation can still occur at any time and/or preignition can occur at anytime too. Plus i get to steam clean my engine. Its a mid engine setup too so it gets hot in that cramped space because I just had to have a cramped up 4 seater mid engine Eg hatch. Least in not sitting in back seats. But with the air being cooled with water evaporation/ meth itll keep det/pre ign in check. What ever it takes me to get to 280-300 whp. Im just using it to hopefully avoid detonation or decrease the risks. Octane isnt my concern. Its the ringland failure of stock block, bad gas, bad tune etc etc. If I run the kit i actually get to pump 87 octane too


As for the J32 its probably going to replace my mid f22 one day. Either way if a thief sees a box in the back of my seats im done for hahaha. At least they wont know till they look inside unlike a J32 in a FF setup. But with tinted windows and my interior design/ modification it almost looks stock.

Just wished someone had actual experience with water/meth so they can just come in and say something like "I used water/meth on my oem untouched block and the rods actually went out first because too much torque. The water/meth injection helped keep the pistons ring lands from breaking by lowering chances of detonation and cooling down the combustion temps." But as we know it the rings will break sooner or later due to higher than tolerated whp/ tq anyways.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Just seems like f22 guys or anyone in general who experiencing ringland failure didnt run the water/meth kit. Instead they just ran the intercooler and kept boosting till ringlands went out and a certain power level. Most didnt have a proper tune either just a FMU. And didnt report if they had a well catch can system. That oil vapor going back in sure decreases octane ratings leading to detonation agian. Makes it hard to tell if it was too much power that killed the ringlands or some million other variables that killed it. Guess ill have to try it once and for all. Most report the ringland failure but never have anything stating that they had the failure EVEN when keeping detonation in check. They simply say bad batch of gas, tune, overheating, or weak ringlands. Just trying to unlock possible potentials of our F22 engine i guess with backed up data.

That way when a super noob, such as myself, posts saying how much hp can this before this happens we can have a better answer than just saying build your engine with forged internals. Instead we can say around 300whp on a healthy engine with water/meth kit and a decent tune.
If we control detonation our variables such as a good tune, etc etc wont be so sensitive. And we also eliminate lots of variables beside whp/tq killing the engine. <---That will always kill. The way I see it, in this specific situation, is your the ringland. Water/meth kit is your 9mm gun. All the variables are the animals that are trying to kill you. You kill the animals based on their size until the biggest animal kills you, because your 9mm gun couldnt kill the biggest animal(Torque)

Someone with experience with a healthy engine, proper turbocharged system, decent tune, and properly routed pcv system please chime in so I dont have to sacrifice my motor for R&D purposes

[93redcb7]

you have a mid engined civic? i would like to see pictures of this.

make sure to get a variable meth kit so its not just on/off.
progressively adding more and more as you get more boost is WAY better

[f22ax_Rocks]

yeah I plan to order the AEM V2 kit or maybe Snow(if i feel like a baller) that activates at a certaind psi i set it to. Its not a variable one but it will be more than enough for my need/ experiment. But I am curios about the variable spray one? Is that snows or devils own?

Its in the show off your ride page for beginners.

My slight build thread is on civic_eg forum under rides. user name "mid_egf22"

[f22ax_Rocks]

Before

AFTER. Sorry mods my stupid phone only lets me put one pic at a time. Not trying to post whore



Tight fit but will allow back seats. Had to move engine 2" back and i had to redesign my turbo manifold.

[93redcb7]

yeah I plan to order the AEM V2 kit or maybe Snow(if i feel like a baller) that activates at a certaind psi i set it to. Its not a variable one but it will be more than enough for my need/ experiment. But I am curios about the variable spray one? Is that snows or devils own?

Its in the show off your ride page for beginners.

My slight build thread is on civic_eg forum under rides. user name "mid_egf22"

the variable one is by far superior and about 400$... all 3 of those manufacturers make variable ones

and very interesting ive never seen a mid engined civic

[f22ax_Rocks]

thx. there are a couple but not many egs at all. Im probably the only f22 mid eg. but ok cool thx ill look into the kits some more.

[sonikaccord]

There probably won't be a definitive torque limit applicable to all our f22a engines just because of the varied life that they lived.

If you do decide to take on this experiment, make sure you take good notes. Also, how will you verify that detonation is the primary cause of premature ringland failure? Right now, it's pretty much just an assumption, rather it's best to treat it as one.

[deevergote]

I've seen a number of stock-internal F22As fail with turbo in a short time. One was built with all new OEM internals by an experienced Honda technician. His own engine. He had a fair amount of turbo experience prior to it as well. It lasted 6 months. Old used engines, as mentioned, are often in drastically different states... so some may survive, others may not. I've seen a number of stock-block turbo setups that have lasted a year or two as well... but I tend to consider those to be exceptions, as there has been absolutely no indication that they were built any differently than the ones that didn't last. In fact, many of the failed engines were built by experienced people, aware of the limitations, and not pushing the boost too high. Many of the surviving engines were built by people that had little experience, with inferior equipment (junkyard DSM turbo and injectors, hacked together charge piping, small Starion intercoolers, street tuned with nothing more than a wideband o2 sensor...)

I don't disagree that detonation is likely the first killer in engines that aren't tuned well. Heat is a very close second. Even if you get the heat under control, getting the heat to a level that the cast aluminum pistons are designed to handle is going to be difficult. MAYBE meth injection is the answer... like I said, I don't think any stock-block turbo guys here have ever tried it. You seem knowledgeable, so I assume you'd likely be able to make it work, or understand why it doesn't if it fails.

I apologize for my previous rather dismissive post. 90&#37; of the questions like this usually come from people with no experience whatsoever, looking for the "easy way out".

Ultimately, simply installing forged pistons in the stock block will be the most reliable way to do it. When built and tuned properly, a turbo F22A with forged pistons in stock sleeves will usually have no issues at least up to 400whp.

[93redcb7]

i agree here with deev, why not just install some forged pistons/rods and really wake that 3071 up and push up to 300-350hp, in that light eg that will be more than enough

[f22ax_Rocks]

Deevergote yes i agree with everything you say as I got most of this F22 knoweldge from your stickies. Thanks for the answer it makes me feel more assured knowing that there are both experienced and inexperienced setups/ rebuilders that still had engine failure because the cast pistons just couldnt handle all that beating. I was just hoping to make one of the highest hp stock internals setup that all.

93redcb7 yeah true true if this engine fails and I dont do the J swap that means more money for forged internals on my other f22 block