** TIPS ON DYNO TUNING & STREET TUNING **

[WiKKeDV16]

start off simple.. i know the answer to this but some might not..


when you retard the ign timing what are you doing??

when you advance the ign timing what are you doing?

under boost circumstances which is safer and why

[MRX]

Thats a great question to start off with.

We all know that our engines fire in a 1,3,4,2 pattern. The spark plugs are fired after the intake stroke and before top dead center in that pattern. That is the ignition sequence but the actual timing is alot more complicated and is done in degrees of the crankshaft's rotation. Lets take for example the stock base timing on the f22 at idle. The timing is set at 16*btdc or 16 degrees before top dead center. That 16* means that the ecu tells the spark plug to fire exactly 16 degrees before the crankshafts rotation makes the piston reach tdc (top dead center). So the lower the degrees (say 14*)the later the spark plug will fire in the combustion event. The higher the degrees (say 18*) the earlier the spark will fire and the earlier the fuel/air mixture will be ignited.

For boost conditions we go off of what the stock f22 ignition is but only under the WOT part of the map meaning the 16* at idle we talked about is now null. We'll say that the f22 has 31 degrees of timing at 4000rpm at WOT. Generally ignition rises in degrees as the rpms rise but the ignition values also fall as u go from idle to 0 vaccum (or WOT) and falls even more so in forced induction conditions.

So we're at 4000rpm n/a and WOT. Our ignition timing is at 31 degrees and everything is great, theres not detonation and power is great. Well at this point u can actually start adding in ignition timing to make more power. For beginners u should really only add in or "advance" about .25* at a time and once u sense detonation ( U SHOULD BE ON A DYNO!!!) u need to back off or "retard" about 1-1.5 full degrees. Backing off that much will compensate for drastic weather changes and ensure plenty of reliablity although power will suffer a little its better than a blown engine. Chances of actually detonation on a stock/lightly modded f22 are still slim to none because of the compression ratio being 8.8:1.
Advancing the ignition adds power by igniting the fuel/air earlier and allowing force of the gases expansion to last longer and by the time the piston is combusting it all at TDC the gas has released most of its kinetic energy throughout the piston travelling upward. The release of the energy causes the power obviously. Now retarding the ignition makes less power because the mixture doesn't have nearly as long to release its full potential before the piston is on its way travelling downwards then back up on the exhaust stroke and the rest of the potential is being pushed through the exhaust.

Running retarded under boost conditions is highly recommended but there is quite a catch to it. The general rule when first starting out is that u should retard your ignition from .75-1* per pound of boost. This is great for a basemap and safety if ur not on a dyno but not for tru JDMn3ss power. I've learned to use whats called a step retard system. For stepped retard u would do this principle:
1-3psi = no retard stay at 31 degrees
3-5psi = .25-.35* retard and would be at 30.3-30.5*
5-8psi = .5-.6* retard and would be around 29-28.5*
8-10psi = .7-.8* retard and would be around 27.6*
10-11psi = .9* retard and would be around 26.7*

That method gives u roughly around .39* of retard per pound of boost. Its more aggressive but a bit more dangerous if ur unable to monitor any spikes in ur power.

The general reason why we retard timing in boost is because the air is heated up as its compressed by the turbo. Setups with no intercooler will be more retarded and thus less powerful than a setup with an IC. Another reason is our octane. Too hot of air and low octane levels in a pressurized environment become unstable (denation). If ur detonating then u are exceeding the octane's limits either by igniting it too soon or its simply igniting itself due to heat. 87, 89, and 93 octane all have a certain point in which they ignite. 93 octane resists preignition more than 87 and 89 however making it good for boost in most cases. Even 400whp+ setups can run on pump gas but they have to retard the ignition as to not cause detonation.

But suppose ur full boost at 10 psi and have 28* timing advance and using 93 octane. U aren't detonating but know that another full degree will make u detonate but u want more power without turning up the boost. One great option is finding higher octane or race gas around ur town. Another 7-11 octane points (100-104 octane) is more than enough to handle another degree of advance. It may even be able to handle a couple of degrees advance. And for a rule of thumb i gained about 3-5whp and 5wtq for every .5* of timing i added.

Keep the questions coming...

[WiKKeDV16]

good fucking write up.. cleared up some misconceptions i had... another question is.. when running forced induction.. how can you use ignition tuning to make the car a good honda car (MPG) and still have power when ur mashing the throttle.. im basiclly asking how did you combine the two.. low rpm driveability with high rpm brute force.. hehe i know uve answered this to me but still another good question for t3h newbs

[MRX]

I'll need ur help carlos since i'm at work i can't open uber. Could u please post the ign table and ign grid of the last f22 map i sent u? Then on the grid maybe circle 24-6 in/hg of vac and then circle .35 of vac -11psi in a different color. Its really the only way i'd be able to explain it is by showing that there are several lines the the ecu reads from

[WiKKeDV16]

[MRX]

thanks carlos,

Ok we're gonna look at the this tab in uberdata. This is the graphical representation of the ignition timing for the f22 that i've come up with. Putting it on a graph makes it easy to point, click, and smooth out the lines and make sure the important ones don't cross. Now, what i've been trying to explain for the longest is that u CAN have high gas mileage and still have great performance because the map isn't just one line...its several. Just because u add fuel in at 4000rpm doesn't mean ur adding it in at all points of 4000rpm on the map. The ecu reads 4 points at a time and takes the average of all 4 of those values to decide how much fuel or how much timing to distribute.

Notice 0.35 in/hg circled in red and 11.03psi circled in purple. Anything past 1psi is obviously in the boost columns/section. N/A applications don't go into boost but they do get to 0 in/hg of vacuum. And since the ecu reads 4 points on the map at a time n/a applications at WOT are at .35in/hg and 1psi. The motor itself doesn't go to 1psi but the map will read at 1psi because its the closest pressure to what its reading. 0 in/hg is not between 1.98 in/hg and .35 in/hg so why would it read there ya know?

Your idle, off throttle, and partial throttle sections are from 24. in/hg to 1.98 in/hg. Completely different lines you see? Our honda engines normally idle between 22-19 in/hg. So u can figure out which 4 points the ecu will be reading from in idle.

While cruising and letting off the throttle the engine goes into very high vacuum. It gets to around 25+ in/hg.

The last couple of paragraphs were just to show how many lines, how far away those lines are from each other, and how to the ecu reads those lines. Now back to the original question. I've found that when doing about 2000rpm and going 50mph in 5th gear i'm around 14 in/hg of vacuum. Now i can start adding in timing from 16.57-13.32 in/hg. What adding in more ignition timing does is obviously ignite the gases sooner. And in turn gives it longer to burn thus creating a cleaner burn. The cleaner the gases burn the more energy they let out and the less ur engine has to work to keep a certain rpm/vacuum. This actually results in better gas mileage and an overall smoother acceleration. I guess thats the best way i can explain that. There is such thing as too much timing in vacuum tho and if u add too much timing u'll get coughs and rapid stutters. Its kind of like detonation but since in vacuum your not putting much load on the engine its ALOT more forgiving and is just more annoying than harmful...unless it continues for very long periods of time (months/years).

I've read that most any engine would benefit to have about 3 degrees added to its vacuum maps. But try to leave the idle area alone. Also, try to keep anything under 16 in/hg from crossing. They should be fairly uniform and smooth flowing. So in closing, the trick to low rpm driveability with high rpm brute force is simply knowing that u tune each seperately and that they don't effect each other at all because they are on completely different areas of the map

[deevergote]

Man... I gotta take an hour to carefully read through this stuff! Great writeup so far!

Antoine, what happened to "I busted my ass learning all this stuff, everyone should follow the same route as me if they want to learn. I won't walk anyone through it."

[MRX]

Man... I gotta take an hour to carefully read through this stuff! Great writeup so far!

Antoine, what happened to "I busted my ass learning all this stuff, everyone should follow the same route as me if they want to learn. I won't walk anyone through it."

well this is alot more advanced talk than questions like "which ecu is best" ya know lol? Most of the questions from beginners are things that already been answered or are self explanatory. Asking the above questions that can't be answered in 3 words is what i get into. The easy shit has been covered I like difficult questions even if i can't answer them its just something else for me to learn. Besides learning the ignition timing is the hardest. Getting comfortable with riding the edge of power and grenading the motor takes time and patience...and balls. Deev if u have any questions, or anyone else concerning the ignition lemme know.

[Accord R33]

damn...i feel like i should be paying to read this stuff lol. i think i learn more here than i do in school

[MRX]

are there any more questions? If not then i'll continue onto the advanced stuff

[Grumpys93]

whats our next step in tuning the f22a1? Lol j/m if u want to answer you can

[WiKKeDV16]

this is a lil off topic of timing but still a good question... when a turbosetup is choosen say dsm kit all the way with 14b.. what are "quick tips" to fix the "bad" effects of tuning.. lean spikes/wavey a/fs/sputtering i mean the basemaps are decent but for some they dont work as good for others.. for example someone using R33s base with a SMIC instead of FMIC and with a 2.5" DP instead of r33's stockers.. it adjusts the air/fuel reading a good bit and throws off his parameters basiclly.. (why i love tuning no matter what you gotta sit there and tune your own shit hehe)

[MRX]

well for the lean spikes or even backfiring when letting off the throttle u should try adding in about 10-20% fuel at that part of the map. A general rule of thumb is for every 10% u add in u change the a/f ratio .1:1 That rule of thumb is generally for around 0 vac and boost sections tho. And since percentage is based off of the value that the percentage is taken from it doesn't apply to all portions of the map. For example 10% of 100 isn't the same as 10% of 150. Wavey A/F's are fine when cruising in partial throttle (its actually supposed to be that way) but u should be shooting for a flat a/f under WOT conditions.
About the stock exhaust vs. aftermarket exhaust and effects...usually a higher flowing exhaust helps let the engine "breath" in higher rpms so the 5200ish rpm that the 14b normally dies at may be extended a couple hundred rpms. Well on the fuel map of R33's 14b u can clearly see it power fall on its face, if power were to contine then fuel would have to be continued also because the engine is still making power. With the exhaust exiting the motor faster the turbo will spool faster due to exhaust velocity. And on top of that the exhaust will also allow for more cylinder pressure throughout the rpm range meaning u can start adding in some timing creating more power through most if not all of the powerband.

SMIC users that are on R33's map should be using atleast one full degree of timing UNDER what the map is currently in the boost sections.

We all already know that two of the exact same setups will differ from one another but it won't be so much that there should be drastic changes. But the general basemap rules apply when using a map for a different setup...run rich and retarded until u can get a wideband and a dyno to make sure there it isn't too lean or detonating. No one should expect to make massive amounts of power off a basemap...afterall it is just a basemap which means starting point to me.

[WiKKeDV16]

fyi i meant about wot conditions with wavey a/fs sucka..

[MRX]

fyi i meant about wot conditions with wavey a/fs sucka..

well then obviously u need to set a specific a/f as a goal, then get it there by adding/subtracting fuel where needed....how hard is that? GOOOSH!