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H22A7? The road to recovery. (Long read warning)

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    H22A7? The road to recovery. (Long read warning)

    I've been silent for quite some time now, since last summer, April 2015, I had just bought the last piece of equipment I needed, so I had everything to build that sweat N/A F22A Bisi beast.

    In just 3 days, my car went from stock, to ported, cammed, upgraded VT, full bolt-ons, stock bottom end(9.8:1 CR stock), I was out of control and the only thing I had on my mind was building this car and I wanted to be done yesterday.

    Tear-down was already done, the big lump of aluminium was just staring at me, waiting to get ported and nothing could stop me, no price tag was too big, no woman was more important, than getting this head (should I say mildly, because the ports size weren't actually increased) ported and polished and ready for the machine shop to do their part, I sanded and polished for some 24 hours, day and night and the results we're amazing, even the machine shop told that considered it was made by hand it was quite impressing, that's what he said when I picked it up, and that boosted my confidence in my project so much that I could not wait to get it done (Considering it was my first porting job ever, only practised very little on a spare head, so hearing that from an experienced machinist made me go through the roof) so I headed back to my shop (60 mile drive) and started putting it together again, the head took some time to assembly as I took my time with the details, the Bisi cam had been waiting for 7 months at this time and it was finally installed in a shiny "new" head completely upgraded, the costs at this point for the project had exploded, 3 times the original budget only to get another 1000USD dent from my tuner (ECU, rent of various equipment and so on), you must understand at this point how excited I was and the feeling of being 100% complete with your project was the greatest feeling I had ever had at this point, the sun was shining as well and it ran like a fucking champ (even un-tuned!).

    It did run like a fucking champ, it dynoed 165hp untuned with the upgrades at this point, it almost ran a little too good for a high lift cam (.500" as far as I remember), so all my excitement slowly turned into paranoia (starting to think about horror stories that has been following Bisi around), and it got worse as I saw my tuner shaking his head multiple times when he was adding more fuel.

    He tells me at one point that he can't add more fuel, it keeps running rich and before he even touched the "tables" it had near perfect A/F (except my porting would add a little air, makes sense, I mean, right?).

    I asked if it was a injector size problem? (I was desperate, don't ask), he said "No, it can't be, the engine is just not getting more air to add more fuel to" and proceeded "It's like the cam is stock".

    Going home that day, with just 5+ hp was horrible, I was frustrated with all the time I spend with this projected. I had no clue what was going on I mean, I had a fucking Bisi cam, at this point I started to suspect the cam was maybe an un-ground A6 that somehow got mixed up in the process?

    Anyway, around 20 days later the engine blew a rod bearing and the project had come to an definitive end, I left the car at the shop without license plates and haven't looked back since May 30th 2015.

    I was almost at the point of being depressed, this was a defeat on a scale I had not seen coming and refused to accept reality for some time(Yes, I am that committed to this car and project, and that is partly because of CB7 tuner). Yea, I am probably not very normal either.

    Then my tuner one day told he had this offer, three H22A7s:


    And this:



    And this one:



    I bought three H22A7 for just around 700USD, all destroyed in the hands of un-experinced drivers probably, none of them were in running condition, but three of them would be able to spawn a working one, that was the thought.

    The first engine you see in the picture was bought as a so call "lottery" ticket, condition unknown (I had not seen any of the engines in person before delivery), upon further inspection, I find a nasty belt failure, looks like wrong or failed tension(er), doesn't look good at first sight, head and bottom end damage suspectable for sure.

    The second engine is a total failure but was a part of the deal, has pumps and a generator and probably usable bits and pieces here and there, but basically its disintegrated as you can see from these pictures:

    The valveguide is destroyed in this picture, there is internal engine parts in the intake runners as well.


    Another damaged valve guide, this engine had parts of pistons and whatnot all over too. If you pay close attention, you can see that the valve has a rather nasty bend as well


    So engine number 2 is beyond repair IMO. Had a pretty well painted VC, and external engine components are fine, so there's that.

    Engine number 3, or engine block nr 3, is the one I am supposed to mate with the head of engine nr 1.


    Let's take a closer look at engine nr 1, that belt failure looks interesting (in a bad way).

    The pulley was gone, only pieces was left, this engine had some serious damage, was my initial thought, and that belt failure looks worse at this angle too.



    I could not get the balance pulley off, something is blocking it, turns out the crank has rough edges, probably from when the pulley broke off.

    The crank had rough edges. (Suppose the crank is fine, would this amount of sanding render it unusable? I don't know really)



    After a bit of sanding with an anglegrinder, It came off rather easily.


    Here's a different, surprising view of the belt failure:


    I have never seen that before, its probably uncommon, or not.



    Anyway, from what we can see, it looks like the tensioner has failed or something like that, in effect trapping the slack of the belt around the crank, effectivly locking the crank in place, the more the crank would rotate the more tension on the grip of the belt would have been, I suspect this engine would have instantly shut off in the blink of an eye, maybe during idle or load I'm not sure.

    Time for the head to come off, looks dirty, previous owner was sloppy with oil changes:



    Away it went and here's the next huge surprise or challenge, 500USD for anyone who spots a piston that has had sexual intercourse with a valve.
    I was surprised to see that there were not the slightest scratch on the surface of the pistons from any of the valves, and by the amount of oil this engine must have used I mean, check out those insane amounts of deposits, it would have been very evident if the pistons had hit the valves.

    Close up of the (later described damaged valve) piston (#4) that had a damage valve:


    Using the Valve Master tool, it literally takes 30 seconds to remove a valve, I cannot stress how important this tool has been to me, BUY ONE NOW, you will thank me for the rest of your life, fits F and H and B series etc, has 30 sec removal time and installation time, can also be used to install new stemseals.



    So maybe this engine might actually be fine?
    Well not exactly, when I took the head apart I did find some slight damage as shown here:
    (This is the valve I mentioned before)


    Hey, that's not really that bad, is it?

    Here's more damage:

    Another scratched valve, still not very bad.


    Here's the worst damage I could find, judged by the deposits in the damage it self, I looks like it has ran with the partly broken off valveguide, making it and old wound, not related to this current belt failure, the valve was completely fine too, which would have been a little weird:


    So that's basically it, the valves looks undamaged, even those who had been scratched had no visible damage beyond that scratch obviously.

    Here's a guide from one of the scratched valves:


    I'm starting to think this engine some how, under the worst odds possible, survived with limited damage, that would make it worth rebuilding after all.
    (Not to be confused with the disintegrated engine)



    I have not yet had a look and the bottom end, I have to go on a vacation to Netherlands in a couple of days, and after that I have a lot of work however, I am off work between 25th and 28th of April and I might not be able to get my mind of this by that time, so I expect something to happen.

    Someone has put a little work into the head, however its an eyesore to me, I have to finish the job, so I will give this head the same treatment I gave my F head.







    I have 2 A7 heads, and the other does not have this done to it, so it can't be factory made.

    Look how sad this is, its like someone though "Fuck, I can't do this" and just stopped there, definitively robbing flow:






    Transitions are not smooth, making the air tumble around, this is important in PnP.

    You can sand the bowl i.e up until the valve seats so there is no transition on the surface) before entering the chamber, but if you sand anything else in the runner, you cannot leave unsanded area between those two spots, if that makes any sense at all.
    Don't worry about atomization, it's a myth on multi point injected engines, if you look closely at how the fuel is injected to the H engine etc., the injector itself is aimed to spray directly at the valve, meaning it does not travel down the runners and atomize in the process, however, mono point and carburettor engine does have a need for this so you leave a more rough surface for this. But go ahead and sand your way to 320 buffs (Dremel tool) and get a near mirror finish, this will cause the air to slip on the surface rather than grabbing on to the rough texture = increased airflow én masse.

    I will post more pictures when I'm done with this for future reference that others users may enjoy.


    So it looks like I'm going H after all, even though I said i would never do it, I'm thinking an rebuild Euro R engine is a good start
    Last edited by CB7Denmark; 04-07-2016, 02:41 PM.
    Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

    #2
    Are all the heads stamped PDE or P13? Some PDE stamped heads from the H22A and H22A7 had factory porting/bowl work for the Accord Type-R and Euro-R/Prelude Type-S models.


    '98 Prelude resto/mod thread

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Chrisnick View Post
      Are all the heads stamped PDE or P13? Some PDE stamped heads from the H22A and H22A7 had factory porting/bowl work for the Accord Type-R and Euro-R/Prelude Type-S models.
      Hey Chris, that's interesting, I'll look for it next time I'm around, either way it's sloppy work and I can't accept it when I'm spending the time to rebuild it anyway, it's not like it's gonna cost me anything..
      Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

      Comment


        #4
        FIRSTLY: Chris, both my heads are PDE-1 stamped, only one of them has visible head work done to it.


        Yesterday work was resumed, it was time to dissect the remains of the bottom end.



        It was pretty straightforward, the whole dismantling thing is pretty intuitive.
        Still have to remove the oilpump though.


        All the main shells were good as "new", well, not really, but they were fine, oil rings were stuck deep inside the grooves in the piston, this is very common to the point I'd like to call "normal", it happens when you are sloppy with oil changes and being impatient with the engine getting to operating temp.

        I think this engine must've had a preeeeettyyy bad knock, here's rod shells from number 1 (or 4 can't recall).
        That's an ugly looking bearing, in fact, I think the previous owner must have driven this engine for quite a while in this condition, this is seriously worn!



        Here's cylinder 1 (or 4, can't recall) compared to cylinder 2:

        Not very good, the crank is probably KIA. RIP

        Here's another angle of the dead shell and a shell from cylinder 2:


        I'm serious, the shell was almost as thin as paper.

        Here's all the shells from the rods, please swap 3 and 4, I misplaced them:



        H22A7 crank, if you have good eyes you can spot cyl. 1 and 4 is pretty RIPped:


        Here's a couple of close-ups of the KIA crank:





        So that's the end for now, I have a grenaded H22A7 (Misshift to 3rd from 4th by prev owner), but I seriously doubt the crank is anywhere near healthy condition, I will check it out eventually, but I'm going to Netherlands for a short vacation, I will be back at the shop around 25th of April.

        I wish you all well and happy building!
        Last edited by CB7Denmark; 04-09-2016, 05:19 PM.
        Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

        Comment


          #5
          Just a small update from overseas:


          I've had a lot of time to think and to research.

          I have a friend which has a H22A JDM with spun bearing, he offered me the motor for free and I will accept, so the plans are as following:

          Neither of the 2 H22A7's have workings cranks, as you can see from earlier posts, damaged beyond repair, now I have one last H22A7 which I will open up tomorrow and investigate the crank in that one, but I don't have high hopes for it.

          The F22A3 is busted, spun a bearing, but the knock is barely audible, so here's what I've come up with in case the last H22A7 is busted as well.

          (This requires the F crank to have minimal damaged and polish-able, I've looked at the H22A JDM crank, and I am really not sure it can be repaired, requires some measurements)

          * DIY Micropolish the F crank.
          * Use the F crank in the H22A JDM block (Both have 50mm mains)
          * Use H22A rods. EDIT: USING F22A RODS as I was not aware of the stroke differences from F to H crank. This combo creates a 12.1:1 C/R, so I am kinda still at the drawingboard right now.
          * Use H22A7 pistons (11.0:1 C/R)
          * Obviously new ringslands and bearings.
          * Use type S cams and springs, from the broken H22A7.
          * Port and polish the H22A JDM Head.

          Should end with a slightly lower revving, stroked H22A (2.3L) with 11.6:1 C/R using H22A pistons or 12.1:1 C/R using the Type-S pistons, I have both on the shelf.

          This is what I am going to do, starting tomorrow with checking 3 crankshafts, the A7, the F and the H22A crank.

          Wish me luck, that either one of the cranks are repairable.
          Last edited by CB7Denmark; 07-13-2016, 09:35 PM.
          Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

          Comment


            #6
            I can't recall everything I want to say in order, but:

            I've had a P13 and a PDE head, PDE actually had valve seats blended with the runners, and these heads have never been cracked off the block.

            You could grind and polish the H crank and use oversize bearings.

            Doing the F crank to make the H24 is really sweet, in combo with the 11: pistons you get a high compression engine. Should be fine with a good tune and fuel, but be weary of the ring lands.

            Sucks about the original F
            '93 H22A 5SPD SE - MRT - DIY-Turbo Sizing

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by domesticated View Post
              I can't recall everything I want to say in order, but:

              I've had a P13 and a PDE head, PDE actually had valve seats blended with the runners, and these heads have never been cracked off the block.

              You could grind and polish the H crank and use oversize bearings.

              Doing the F crank to make the H24 is really sweet, in combo with the 11: pistons you get a high compression engine. Should be fine with a good tune and fuel, but be weary of the ring lands.

              Sucks about the original F


              Hey Domestic, hope everything is alright!


              I could grind and polish the H crank, but the damage is really extensive, the bits you see on the surface appears to be bearing pieces embedded into it, its far below the nitrit(Might not be spelled right) hardening, I am having higher hopes for the F crank which as I mentioned, has a barely audible knock, and obviously if the last H22A7 is good to go, I will be using that one, but I really don't think it is as it has pieces of internals everywhere in the exhaust and intake ports (Yes, even the intake ports).

              The stroker combo is really tempting as I basically have everything I need, good call on the ringlands though, didn't think of them, I also forgot to mention that the rotating assembly will - of course - be fully balanced.

              I have access to 98 Octane (RON) albeit more expensive (As if it should be a concern of mine at this stage $$$) but the car won't serve as a daily driver (thank god) more than a toy.

              I really dig your CB, it's candy for my eyes, and your build is enviable.
              Last edited by CB7Denmark; 07-13-2016, 10:36 PM.
              Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

              Comment


                #8
                How are the sleeves on the H22Ax block you are going to use? As they are still the FRM sleeves which suck to work on. Although in Denmark you might have better access to machine shops that regularly work on Porsche's, so you might be able to have them honed and cleaned up. Or are you just going to run them as is?

                I found an H22A1 block here in the US in a junkyard and had to resleeve it. Which tacked on an extra $800 USD (sleeves, pistons, and sleeving the block). Just some food for thought as these H22 engines kind of suck to work on after they have been abused. Hell Domesticated knows this first hand, as he has some of the best sleeves I've seen for the H22. I would love a set of Benson sleeves but it's out of my price range for the time being.
                MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Rilas View Post
                  How are the sleeves on the H22Ax block you are going to use? As they are still the FRM sleeves which suck to work on. Although in Denmark you might have better access to machine shops that regularly work on Porsche's, so you might be able to have them honed and cleaned up. Or are you just going to run them as is?

                  I found an H22A1 block here in the US in a junkyard and had to resleeve it. Which tacked on an extra $800 USD (sleeves, pistons, and sleeving the block). Just some food for thought as these H22 engines kind of suck to work on after they have been abused. Hell Domesticated knows this first hand, as he has some of the best sleeves I've seen for the H22. I would love a set of Benson sleeves but it's out of my price range for the time being.
                  Hey Rilas.

                  I don't know about the sleeves yet, I will look into it later today (its 6AM right now) when I go about checking the crank in the JDM H22a, I am hoping that the sleeves are fine as I will be using the pistons that already sits in it, clean them up, change the ringlands, and hopefully they're good to go, the C/R calculator gives me a red warning when putting in the Type S pistons, so I ditched that idea, and the 2.4L'ish @ 11.6 C/R should put a smile on anyone's face

                  The H22A JDM has around 190.000km or less on it, so I would be somewhat surprised if the sleeves are worn, I know the last two owners of the engine, they are both careful people till the engine is at running temperature, however the engine suddenly lost oil pressure and that's why it spun a bearing, something I'd have to look into as well, could be a failed oil pump or a blockage somewhere, I have no idea really, the crank on 1 and 4 has some soft wavy ridges (Am I using this word correctly?) on the surface of the rods journals, I don't think it can be repaired, but I haven't measured yet, but the idea is to use the F crank anyway.

                  So I am hoping to use the stock sleeves, otherwise my budget is blown to pieces because that 800USD job is a 2000USD job in my country
                  Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

                  Comment


                    #10
                    It still might not be a bad idea at looking into to having it honed by a machine shop. Which shouldn't cost all that much, then again it needs to be a shop familiar with FRM sleeves. It would be something for the longevity and peace of mind for the long haul. I'm sure as you know by now, a little more up front can save a FORTUNE down the road. Thats why my stupid H22A1 is taking forever to get wrapped up. I'm always in need of something else that costs at least $100 it seems. The front guy at the machine shop jokes with me and calls it my $100 Honda, because it seems no matter what part I need it always seems to cost at least $100. Where as he picks up the same part for a Chevy and goes this cost $35, and I proceed to cry a little inside.

                    I didn't have any shops that had ever done it. My main one was willing to try but it was going to be debatable on how long it would run for. So I just opted for resleeving it and sucking up the price. Granted it might be cheaper for you considering you might be able to find some stuff more local. I don't know how available Darton sleeves are over there, or if you can find Nippon Racing pistons. I used both of those. I was very impressed with how close together the pistons matched together in weight and measurements.

                    That so sucks that you have 3 cranks and they all might be bad. I would be so sad if that turns out to be true. Oh well you are planning on one bad ass stroker now. I really want to bore out a F23A1 and bump the compression and see just how mean a SOHC can get. Only thats a good ways down the road.
                    MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Rilas View Post
                      It still might not be a bad idea at looking into to having it honed by a machine shop. Which shouldn't cost all that much, then again it needs to be a shop familiar with FRM sleeves. It would be something for the longevity and peace of mind for the long haul. I'm sure as you know by now, a little more up front can save a FORTUNE down the road. Thats why my stupid H22A1 is taking forever to get wrapped up. I'm always in need of something else that costs at least $100 it seems. The front guy at the machine shop jokes with me and calls it my $100 Honda, because it seems no matter what part I need it always seems to cost at least $100. Where as he picks up the same part for a Chevy and goes this cost $35, and I proceed to cry a little inside.

                      I didn't have any shops that had ever done it. My main one was willing to try but it was going to be debatable on how long it would run for. So I just opted for resleeving it and sucking up the price. Granted it might be cheaper for you considering you might be able to find some stuff more local. I don't know how available Darton sleeves are over there, or if you can find Nippon Racing pistons. I used both of those. I was very impressed with how close together the pistons matched together in weight and measurements.

                      That so sucks that you have 3 cranks and they all might be bad. I would be so sad if that turns out to be true. Oh well you are planning on one bad ass stroker now. I really want to bore out a F23A1 and bump the compression and see just how mean a SOHC can get. Only thats a good ways down the road.
                      I'm beginning to fear that I have the same $100 engine :P


                      Well well well, what do you know!
                      The last completely grenaded, and it's not joke, it was grenaded, had a crank in it, that appears to fine actually, this was a huge surprise to me, because I couldn't even find the pistons to start with, check out the picture, that's whats left from cylinder 1 and 3:



                      And here's a bunch of other photos, the journals that I took pictures of has some slight scratches than I can feel with my nail but feels smooth with the touch of the finger, but I honestly don't think it has anything to say when it comes to reliability, however there is some baad scratching on one of the weights, I will have the crankshaft checked overall to see whats up with it:
                      (Didn't have the Nikon with me at the shop, so some of them are from my phone)



















                      Now to the sleeves.

                      There's a vertical scratch in cylinder 2, it's about 1,5" long so not the full length of the stroke, it's deep enough to catch my nail, but I would say it's very deep, guesstimate would be 0.2-3mm deep at most.
                      Regarding this, I found this piece of information somewhere on HT:

                      "From Hondas march 2001 service news:

                      Honing Fiber-Reinforced
                      Metal Cylinders
                      All S2000s and 90 and later VTEC and Si Preludes
                      have cylinder liners made with fiber-reinforced
                      metal (FRM). You don't need to hone FRM
                      cylinder liners unless the cylinder has deep
                      vertical scratches that run the full length of the
                      bore. But if the cylinder liners have light-colored
                      spots or flaking, you must replace the engine
                      block.
                      If you need to hone FRM cylinder liners, follow
                      these guidelines:
                      Use only a rigid hone (not a ball hone) with
                      GC-600-J or finer honing stones for nonferrous
                      metals. Make sure you use an oil type honing
                      lubricant.
                      Keep the pressure between 200 and 300 kPa (2
                      and 3 kg-cm2, 29 and 43 psi). Hone between
                      45 and 60 rpm using a 60-degree cross-hatch
                      pattern.
                      Do not hone more than 20 cycles. Clean the
                      honing stones every five cycles.
                      After you're done honing, thoroughly clean
                      the engine block of all metal/abrasives. Wash
                      the cylinder bores with hot, soapy water, then
                      dry and oil them immediately. Never use
                      solvent; it will only redistribute the grit on the
                      cylinder walls.
                      It's OK to have some light vertical scoring and
                      scratching of the cylinder bores if it isn't deep
                      enough to catch your fingernail, and if it
                      doesn't run the full length of the bore. But if
                      the scratches are too deep, bore and hone the
                      cylinders to the next oversize specification."

                      So, I don't know right now, I am all ears.
                      Last edited by CB7Denmark; 07-14-2016, 04:27 PM. Reason: Typos and more pictures!
                      Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

                      Comment


                        #12
                        damn good thread guys! im buying an h22a from a friend at work in the next week that has a spun bearing. im learning a ton from this thread about the H
                        visit vgruk

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by RyanD View Post
                          damn good thread guys! im buying an h22a from a friend at work in the next week that has a spun bearing. im learning a ton from this thread about the H
                          If you need any information you can just ask, I have 3 H's spread at all over the shop by now
                          Check out my MRT, i'd love some constructive criticism ---> http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=204165 PICTURES FROM 2014! DOES NOT REPRESENT CURRENT STATE

                          Comment


                            #14
                            I'm assuming that the scratch in the sleeve, is on the best block of the 3? If so that does suck and mean you need to get them bored and honed, and get some oversize pistons and rings. Or resleeve 1 of the 3 blocks and get some new pistons. I went oversize on mine because the sleeves could handle them fine and it gained me some displacement. Not a lot but I figure the rule always holds true. There is no replacement for displacement. So you could end up with something like a 2.42 litre engine which can't hurt in anyway.

                            Also going down the crappy road you might be on, you get iron sleeves which I would trust any day over 15-20 year old FRM sleeve, basically a brand new engine with 0 miles, that will burn less oil over it's lifetime than an FRM sleeved engine.
                            MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Also I brought those exact directions into my machine shop. Like I said before they were willing to try doing it but I was a guinea pig, and I didn't want to take the chance. But if you can find a shop that does Porsche work, it should be easy for them. Porsche uses the same FRM sleeves. So you might get lucky and get by with just a bore and hone with some new pistons. Which would be much cheaper than resleeving the block.
                              MRT: 1993 Honda Accord SE Coupe (Lola)

                              Comment

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