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    #31
    Ya, i agree with you. And I see it as dealerships pushing the market and sheep falling for it. The same way Apple pushes their products to their sheep.

    - Remember when everyone wanted a small car?
    - Now people don't want large SUV but mini-SUVs, like the Honda HRV
    - Why do we need AWD vehicles? Even living in Canada a FWD gets me anywhere I need to go. Maybe if I lived on a mountain.... (this point grinds my gears the most...)
    - Exploit laziness to push for automatic transmission...
    - Exploit fear of learning to drive proper for safety crap in our cars we don't need


    It is sad. Folks will use the excuse "it's easier to get the little one in the back" for buying a SUV, as they don't have to bend over. Car commercials showing these huge AWD SUV going through a mud puddle to justify the AWD technology in it. The way I see it, it's always the women pushing it. They want to sit up high, they want super duper safe, they want features that are not needed, and the man says yes. Can't say I've ever seen/heard of a man say he wanted a specific SUV / Minivan, etc. because "he" wanted it. Seems to always be a wife / family move...

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      #32
      I'm convinced the SUV is a replacement for the minivan because people got tired of the stigma attached to them. But I don't get why it would matter on the dealership or even manufacturer side of sales. Taking popularity out of the equation and imagining for a second that most humans were actually capable of thinking for themselves: cars or crossovers, they're still pushing vehicles that cost about the same, so why would they care what segment they have to cater to?

      Oh, and I forgot to mention I read that the average American family has been getting smaller over the years (source), further disproving that people "need more space because they're having a child."

      Accord Aero-R

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        #33
        SUVs are trendy


        That’s all


        Cars had their hay day

        It’ll come back full swing

        Crossovers are a “value” to the consumer because it’s basically an suv at a car price

        And the ground clearance/awd dynamic matters. One of my cars is a crossover suv that’s awd. And it’s awesome in the snow. Owns my s6 that’s for sure
        Originally posted by wed3k
        im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

        Comment


          #34
          I got dedicated snow tires for my FWD coupe and it's never been stuck (I even drove it up a friend's grandparents' steep slushy-muddy driveway way up in the mountains this winter), but when it's dry it goes back to being an agile little go-kart, so...

          And yeah, I'll stop, sorry.
          Last edited by CyborgGT; 07-01-2019, 06:24 PM.

          Accord Aero-R

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            #35
            Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
            I got dedicated snow tires for my FWD coupe and it's never been stuck (I even drove it up a friend's grandparents' steep slushy-muddy driveway way up in the mountains this winter), but when it's dry it goes back to being an agile little go-kart, so...

            And yeah, I'll stop, sorry.
            Fair enough


            For me it’s a matter of to clean driveway or not to clean driveway

            Awd minivan, I mean crossover, fuck the driveway


            Driving my s6

            Grabbing the snowblower
            Originally posted by wed3k
            im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

            Comment


              #36
              I worked with a 22 year old that HAD to get an AWD crossover. She wanted it for safety, especially in the 1-2 snowstorms we get each year. For her 20 minute highway commute. She was dead set on a Kona. I told her to test drive the HR-V first. She bought the HR-V.

              The big SUVs are definitely replacing minivans, and I think they have been for quite some time. Which is a shame, because minivans do the whole family hauling thing better than anything else!
              I get true off-road-worthy SUVs having a purpose (that many people never have the need for), and some are good for towing boats or trailers (which I do often see). But those are the real trucks. Not high-riding cars that couldn’t outperform an Impreza in the off road or towing categories.

              I always laugh when the “I need it for the kids” argument is made. I have a friend that brags about the fact that she and her brother grew up being carted around in the back of their mother’s Fox body Capri. And that was fine.






              Comment


                #37
                Since SUVs weren't really a thing yet in the early '90s, we had a station wagon with a rear-facing third row. If I remember right, it was an '88-or-so Pontiac Safari with the faux wood sticker down the side. It was the only real way for all seven of us to get from California to South Dakota and back every summer for a few years. The gas must have been cheaper than flying . Six days stuck in a car, but I wouldn't trade the experience for anything.
                Last edited by CyborgGT; 07-01-2019, 08:57 PM.

                Accord Aero-R

                Comment


                  #38
                  You I must admit I think this my last manual car. And the main reason for that is disconnection. Modern manual cars that I've driven are not like the 90's manual cars. Old school cars you are directly connected (as much as possible) with gas/brake/clutch, and especially in the clutch. You know how to stall it, you know what will happen if you pop the clutch at 1000rpm or 3000rpm. You know what the engine will do if you try to take off in 3rd....

                  Modern cars:
                  - Soft clutches
                  - Built in hydraulic dampener systems
                  - Engine management systems
                  - Safety management systems (stop wheel slipping by reducing power)
                  - etc.

                  I feel so disconnected from this car with the manual. I feel like i'm stepping on a marshmellow while moving a tall shifter that coordinates 2000 other pieces and at the end of that syncronization a gear change happens.

                  I'd say the only advantage is that I change gears when I want to. Driving rentals lately and automatics are simply annoying in regards to gear finding/searching . I know a hill is coming up so I start manipulating the gas pedal to force the transmission to gear down before the hill, so it doesn't do it 1/4 way up the hill before the car slows down 3mph. Modern auto cars are impressive when it comes to WOT but just driving around..... meh.

                  The 2004 TSX manual still is a better shifting experience than this car!

                  Comment


                    #39
                    My 09 Fit was a pretty decent manual experience. Granted, that’s an old car now! The pedal is light, though. Dunno if it’s the hydraulics, or just because the CTS-V is the other clutch pedal I was used to. I used to get in the Fit after days of driving just the Cadillac and think the clutch was broken!






                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
                      Can someone please explain this to me? Crossover sales and their resulting killing-off of many regular cars is frustrating the hell out of me. This move by the consumer makes zero sense unless you have so many children as to justify a third row. As the middle of five kids, and having lived in states as varied as California, South Dakota, and Colorado, I have some practical experience as to why an SUV isn't necessary.

                      - A two-row SUV doesn't have more room than a sedan, except for a taller trunk, in which case why not get a wagon for even more room?
                      Wagons are a dying breed here in the US. It's significantly easier to throw stuff in the back of a SUV/Wagon than it is a sedan 99% of the time.

                      Originally posted by CyborgGT
                      - As 99% of drivers - even in CO - don't see anything rougher than a dirt road, the ground clearance is pointless. And crossovers, the popular style, aren't any better off road than an AWD car anyway, since they're basically the same thing but with a lift kit. "I want to see over traffic" isn't going to be a thing when every other vehicle on the road is also an SUV and therefore at your same height. I could maybe see justification of the ground clearance in Canada, but the fact that he got the sedan in the first place shows that his life doesn't take him off road and that he doesn't have big problems with snow up there; having a baby in the back seat isn't going to change that.
                      In the Northeast huge snowdrifts are a thing. It's a low hanging fruit justification, but I've had to scale drifts at the end of my driveway as I'm on a somewhat busy street and you don't necessarily have the time and space to park at the end of the road prior to snowblowing / shoveling.

                      Seeing over other traffic is definitely a thing up here. When the majority of vehicles are tall, it helps. Driving the Vette is scary since I'm so low to the ground.

                      Originally posted by CyborgGT
                      - Is it safety for your kids you're after? Because crash tests have shown that an SUV isn't any safer for the passengers. All you're doing is hurling more weight at the other car you hit and potentially making it more dangerous for them.

                      - Fuel economy, if anything, is going to be that little bit worse from the increased weight.

                      - The "amazing" rear seats you found in this thing (nice car, btw, not trying to take away from your purchase!) make this particular sale all the more confusing.

                      If it were me, I'd have talked this idiot out of selling his car and went looking somewhere else . I hate people.
                      I will give you the safety / fuel economy thing. A well designed car is safe period.

                      Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                      Ya, i agree with you. And I see it as dealerships pushing the market and sheep falling for it. The same way Apple pushes their products to their sheep.

                      - Remember when everyone wanted a small car?
                      - Now people don't want large SUV but mini-SUVs, like the Honda HRV
                      ]Mini-SUVs are trendy, but I couldn't imagine trying to do more than one child in one.

                      Originally posted by Raf99
                      - Why do we need AWD vehicles? Even living in Canada a FWD gets me anywhere I need to go. Maybe if I lived on a mountain.... (this point grinds my gears the most...)
                      - Exploit laziness to push for automatic transmission...
                      - Exploit fear of learning to drive proper for safety crap in our cars we don't need
                      AWD is personal preference, but there have been times that it's saved me when I've either been plowed in somewhere or hit an unexpected slippery spot. Granted FWD and RWD handle different in the snow, but driving my Tacoma with snow tires in RWD isn't an enjoyable experience in the slushy stuff. My STi could pull itself out of things I saw many, many other vehicles get stuck in. For the incremental cost difference I see no reason not to get it.

                      Transmission is personal preference as well, and has nothing to do with laziness. It's either a situation where you like shifting or you don't. I know plenty of people who can drive manual transmission vehicles more than competently and just don't like it. Automatics these days are so widespread that only on vehicles with manuals available are they still an upcharge. Any fuel savings is minor and in increasingly common cases the automatics are nearly as fast, if not faster, especially in the performance car world.

                      Safety nannies are a take or leave, but I absolutely love my reverse sensors. They're brilliant in parking lots where people zip around without a care in the world.
                      Originally posted by raf99
                      It is sad. Folks will use the excuse "it's easier to get the little one in the back" for buying a SUV, as they don't have to bend over. Car commercials showing these huge AWD SUV going through a mud puddle to justify the AWD technology in it. The way I see it, it's always the women pushing it. They want to sit up high, they want super duper safe, they want features that are not needed, and the man says yes. Can't say I've ever seen/heard of a man say he wanted a specific SUV / Minivan, etc. because "he" wanted it. Seems to always be a wife / family move...
                      Do you have children? I would have felt exactly the same as you, but having a child changed everything for me. Fitting a flailing 30 pound child into a rear facing car seat is an absolute pain sometimes and it's significantly easier than trying to bend and twist. One wrong move and you've tweaked your back. Being able to hold them out and drop them in is SO much better. I could fight our daughter into a low car, but I couldn't see my wife easily doing it, especially given she's currently pregnant.

                      Have you seen the size of a car seat recently? With a rear facing seat in my wife's Grand Cherokee and the passenger seat sitting as far back as safe, I'm not particularly comfortable in the passenger seat. I'm not sure I could drive it if I had two rear facing. The JGC has a much larger backseat than anything I've owned previously. I can only imagine trying to do it in a CB / STi. Our stroller which isn't particularly large but was the one compatible with the infant carrier takes up a solid 50-60% of the available trunk floor space in the back.

                      Originally posted by Raf99 View Post
                      You I must admit I think this my last manual car. And the main reason for that is disconnection. Modern manual cars that I've driven are not like the 90's manual cars. Old school cars you are directly connected (as much as possible) with gas/brake/clutch, and especially in the clutch. You know how to stall it, you know what will happen if you pop the clutch at 1000rpm or 3000rpm. You know what the engine will do if you try to take off in 3rd....

                      Modern cars:
                      - Soft clutches
                      - Built in hydraulic dampener systems
                      - Engine management systems
                      - Safety management systems (stop wheel slipping by reducing power)
                      - etc.

                      I feel so disconnected from this car with the manual. I feel like i'm stepping on a marshmellow while moving a tall shifter that coordinates 2000 other pieces and at the end of that syncronization a gear change happens.

                      I'd say the only advantage is that I change gears when I want to. Driving rentals lately and automatics are simply annoying in regards to gear finding/searching . I know a hill is coming up so I start manipulating the gas pedal to force the transmission to gear down before the hill, so it doesn't do it 1/4 way up the hill before the car slows down 3mph. Modern auto cars are impressive when it comes to WOT but just driving around..... meh.

                      The 2004 TSX manual still is a better shifting experience than this car!
                      Tuning software changes things immensely. My best friend has a 2018 Civic Si with the Hondata flash. The car drives night and day different with and without the flash. Hondata has integrated traction control into their flash and it is brilliant.

                      That being said, you can pry my manuals out of my cold dead hands. I waited almost 2 months for my specially allocated manual Tacoma and I plan on keeping it until it breaks in half under me.
                      Last edited by AccordWarrior; 07-30-2019, 08:25 PM.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by AccordWarrior View Post
                        Wagons are a dying breed here in the US. It's significantly easier to throw stuff in the back of a SUV/Wagon than it is a sedan 99% of the time.

                        Having lived with all three, I disagree and don't feel there's any difference in ease. If anything, I prefer a recessed trunk for day-to-day shopping because the smaller enclosed space keeps bags from spilling, both around the car and out the tailgate when you go to open it. But why did people shift to SUVs and not wagons? Comparing crossovers specifically, wagons usually have more cargo space.

                        In the Northeast huge snowdrifts are a thing. It's a low hanging fruit justification, but I've had to scale drifts at the end of my driveway as I'm on a somewhat busy street and you don't necessarily have the time and space to park at the end of the road prior to snowblowing / shoveling.

                        But big snow is not a thing in most of the country, so the fact that crossovers are outselling cars everywhere, and to the point of literally driving them out of production, doesn't make sense. I lived in South Dakota for seven years, which does see real snow, and my parents got by just fine in their '98 Cavalier and '92 Escort wagon. When it got too unsafe to drive in, that usually meant their jobs were closed. I'm not arguing that SUVs don't have their place; in those big snowy areas, ground clearance is a great idea.

                        Seeing over other traffic is definitely a thing up here. When the majority of vehicles are tall, it helps. Driving the Vette is scary since I'm so low to the ground.

                        But is the logic of "seeing over traffic" not based on the assumption that you're wanting to be higher than traffic? If everyone were in SUVs, you're going to be in the same situation as if everyone were in sedans: everyone's at the same level. If SUVs do totally eclipse sedans as the norm, what then? Are vehicles going to keep getting taller? I spent a couple weeks recently driving an '07 Odyssey while my RSX was down for work. The view was nice, but now that I'm back in my lowered car, I don't find myself missing it.
                        The uneasy feeling of "this thing might just tip over if I'm not careful in a turn" isn't worth it. Be smart, keep a safe following distance, and you'll be fine. If you're wondering whether to overtake, just move over to the left edge of the lane to look around.


                        I will give you the safety / fuel economy thing. A well designed car is safe period.

                        ]Mini-SUVs are trendy, but I couldn't imagine trying to do more than one child in one.



                        AWD is personal preference, but there have been times that it's saved me when I've either been plowed in somewhere or hit an unexpected slippery spot. Granted FWD and RWD handle different in the snow, but driving my Tacoma with snow tires in RWD isn't an enjoyable experience in the slushy stuff. My STi could pull itself out of things I saw many, many other vehicles get stuck in. For the incremental cost difference I see no reason not to get it.

                        Drivetrain should be just as much a regional necessity as ground clearance, but as it is, see my snow comment above.
                        I'm not completely against SUVs, as they make sense for a lot of people. But for most, they don't, and it's killing the fun side of the car industry, which I do love.
                        Last edited by CyborgGT; 07-31-2019, 10:48 AM.

                        Accord Aero-R

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by CyborgGT View Post
                          I'm not completely against SUVs, as they make sense for a lot of people. But for most, they don't, and it's killing the fun side of the car industry, which I do love.
                          Amen. Like those who buy a truck but don't use the back of it.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I'm no fan of SUVs and CUVs myself. I know that they serve a purpose, be it off-road or rough-road travel in the more capable vehicles, to "I wanted something a little more rugged than a minivan" for those with kids, or even the "I have stuff to tow" folks.
                            Still, I totally agree that they're a HUGE factor in the seemingly rapid demise of the fun passenger car segment.

                            Ford is the absolute best example of this. They are stopping the production and sale of ALL cars aside from the Mustang in the North American market. So either you want a work truck (pickup, panel van, etc...), a litte cute ute for... reasons unknown... or a Mustang, which is certainly a fun and sporty car, but that's ALL it is. "Fun and sporty" is the definition of the Mustang. It can't pretend to be anything else. And that's where Ford lost me.
                            Fords (and Ford products) that have interested me more than the Mustang in years past:
                            Taurus SHO
                            Focus ST and RS
                            Fiesta ST
                            Lincoln MK series (especially the VII and VIII)
                            Mercury Marauder
                            Merkur XR4Ti

                            All of those cars are more than just sporty. They're performance-oriented versions of normal everyday passenger cars. You can have a luxurious Lincoln, or a useful hatchback. You can fly under the radar with something that doesn't look as capable as it is. You can't do that with a Mustang. A Mustang promises and delivers a very specific experience that does not apply to everyone.
                            Fans of old Accords probably understand this more than most. We chose a fairly non-sporty family car, and most of us have done upgrades to make our non-sporty family cars quite capable. We don't drive Mustangs. And for those of us that don't have giant wings, slammed suspensions, crazy body kits, or aggressive looking wheels, our cars still look very much like normal family cars. For those of us that haven't modified the cars so extensively that they are barely streetable, our cars can still function as comfortable, efficient, reliable, understated cars.

                            Unfortunately, the non-enthusiast that used to prefer these cars has shifted to the SUV/CUV market. The customer has chosen to throw their money had whatever mundane conveniences that these appliances offer, even when they don't necessarily have a specific need.
                            The tuner/enthusiast crowd that wants thrilling performance from something other than a dedicated sports car is finding that they have fewer options every year. Few enthusiasts want a performance version of the Ford Escape. Few tuners are going to get excited about tricking out the suspension on a Rav4 so they can dominate at the local autocross event. And I bet the number of people adding performance engine modifications to a Jeep Renegade in hopes of breaking the 12 second barrier at the drag strip is exactly zero.

                            The loss of the manual transmission in many "performance" cars is sad enough... but losing so many of these performance cars to the current market preference is upsetting.






                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by CyborgGT
                              Having lived with all three, I disagree and don't feel there's any difference in ease. If anything, I prefer a recessed trunk for day-to-day shopping because the smaller enclosed space keeps bags from spilling, both around the car and out the tailgate when you go to open it. But why did people shift to SUVs and not wagons? Comparing crossovers specifically, wagons usually have more cargo space.
                              You don't have kids, correct? With the size and amount of junk I have to haul around these days it's way easier to open a hatch and toss things in. The cooler I bring down to the beach wouldn't have easily fit into my Accord without having to think through it. I can lob it into the Jeep without issue.

                              That being said, the wagon market is nearly non-existent unless you go into the higher dollar cars. What's your options these days in the sub-35K market? Subaru Outback, VW Golf Sportwagen and the Buick Regal? Each of those has their own compromises.

                              Don't forget that the original SUVs were body on frame and had the "macho" image that appealed to people. They weren't the dorky minivans or the station wagons their parents had. Over time people realized body on frame SUVs had their own compromises (ride quality, fuel economy) and thus you saw the CR-V / RAV pop up.

                              Originally posted by CyborgGT
                              But big snow is not a thing in most of the country, so the fact that crossovers are outselling cars everywhere, and to the point of literally driving them out of production, doesn't make sense. I lived in South Dakota for seven years, which does see real snow, and my parents got by just fine in their '98 Cavalier and '92 Escort wagon. When it got too unsafe to drive in, that usually meant their jobs were closed. I'm not arguing that SUVs don't have their place; in those big snowy areas, ground clearance is a great idea.
                              Maybe, but the Northeast is my frame of reference. In my area unless there is a travel ban my work is open with the "if you feel unsafe, don't come in but we silently judge you" mindset. I've heard people say "oh you've got AWD, you're fine" and that's the expectation around here these days. Granted, I get that AWD in the crossover isn't like having a true transfer case shifted system with lockers, but it can get you further than just FWD is. Also for the record my Mom had a 91 Ford Escort wagon and I felt unsafe in dry pavement in that car.

                              Originally posted by CyborgGT
                              But is the logic of "seeing over traffic" not based on the assumption that you're wanting to be higher than traffic? If everyone were in SUVs, you're going to be in the same situation as if everyone were in sedans: everyone's at the same level. If SUVs do totally eclipse sedans as the norm, what then? Are vehicles going to keep getting taller? I spent a couple weeks recently driving an '07 Odyssey while my RSX was down for work. The view was nice, but now that I'm back in my lowered car, I don't find myself missing it.
                              The uneasy feeling of "this thing might just tip over if I'm not careful in a turn" isn't worth it. Be smart, keep a safe following distance, and you'll be fine. If you're wondering whether to overtake, just move over to the left edge of the lane to look around.
                              For what it's worth, that tippy feeling is vehicle dependent IMO. My Mom's 98 Pathfinder felt SUPER tippy, but none of my Tacomas felt that way unless I was doing something really dumb. My wife had a CX-5 for about 8 months and I could hustle that thing around the corners better than I could my Accord prior to modding the suspension. Also, I may have actually put the thing on two wheels once and STILL didn't feel like I was actually going to tip over, but luckily the telephone pole intervened.

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