Why Honda's need engine swaps to be fast?

[Connal]

The way I look at it my car cost me 800, the insurance is about 30 a month, and my insurance only asks how many cylinders the car has, not what specific engine.
Sure I could go buy a 5.0 mustang, throw on a few bolt ons and have sick power. But the insurance in my eyes would counter all that.
Might as well go with affordable power.
Look at it this way. For what you might pay for a three hundred hoser power car, that is more than likely heavier than an accord do to it's manufactureers ideas about structural stability, you can take a cheaper car, and give it the same horse power, save a few bucks in the end, and on top of that have alot lower insurance costs. That and you can't beat the gas milage with a stick lol

[92accordf22a6]

That was the most beautiful post I read in a long time. Neway if honda did make big displacement motors, they are so technologically advanced that they would probably blow everything else off the map.

Yeah, I agree!! Just imagine if they grew a wild hair up their ass and made a V8 from the merging of 2 K20's or 2H22's. Think about that for a sec.......over 400hp.....n/a........4.0L or 4.4L........that would be damn amazing........along the likes of Lambo, Ferrari and such....... Now THAT would be a good start for a new NSX.......mid engine/rwd dohc 7K+ rpm V8

[91accord1]

I just love seein peoples faces when they get beat by my four banger non Vtec.....Like the other day this volvo (forget what model) would Not leave me alone...and we were going like 40-45mhp and he kept gasin it and slowin down...and finally I threw it into second and we both gunned it and I was on top....and then I slowed down to see his reaction...and he looked at me with a confussed face and gave me thumbs up!

[owequitit]

Much like Deev said...

They are the underdog. How can a non-VTEC 140 HP 2.2liter 4 cylinder car with 210K and Nuespeed sport springs and Tockico shocks run down a 2004 BMW 3 series through the hills up to 130MPH??

It can't be done! EVERYONE knows that!

I look at the ricers as an advantage because we are dealing with them all over town. When the guys around here get legitimately stomped by a non-boosted Honda (or any Honda for that matter), it really hammers the point home that they can be fast. Then they start asking what has been done, and how much it cost. The reaction when it is explained to them? Silence or excuses. Everytime.

The average Honda owner: The guy that used to own my EG hatch. D15B7 8 valve non VTEC. Boosted with a T3. No EMS, no intercooler, No boost control. It still ran for several THOUSAND miles under constant boost. Still ran when it put the number 3 rod through the block too. They are tough, tough little engines.

If Honda's are such shit, why does every other import brand need boost at anything near the same displacement to be as fast?

I have video of mildly swapped Accords running with built DSMs that are at or near 20PSI... How is that possible if they are such crap, and so incapable? Is increasing boost, adding a larger turbo, intercooler, injectors etc etc etc, not just as modified as an engine swap?

Bottom line: I can build a Honda that will tear up some serious shit, and not lose an ounce of reliability, fuel mileage, or driveability. I can do it for less than the cost of a turbokit in most cases, or just as easily not swap and boost, and the feds and the masses are none the wiser unless I choose to make them aware.

Most of the comparisons I see are with built muscle cars, or newer STI's EVO's etc etc etc. Most G35s, 350Zs stock Camaros and Stangs won't outrun a properly driven H Accord, and most that will have at least an equal amount of work done.

If you can't beat a 15 year old Honda in a car that cost 30K is boosted, AWD and 10-15 years newer, or has an engine displacement that exceeds 305 cubic inches; you need to go out back and put a bullet in your head.

In order to be the best, you have to beat the best. Honda knows that, and they prove it everytime they go racing. Everyone knows where Honda stands in the realm of performance, even if they aren't willing to admit it. Ferrari changed the way they do business because HONDA was making them look bad with the NSX (not some other import brand).

Just like the bully in school, most people talk shit because they are insecure about their automotive manliness. Real car guys that know Honda, don't make fun. They understand that it isn't their style, but fast is fast. Real car guys respect it.

[91accord1]

^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^

[deevergote]

Also... if you want to compare an NA 4 cylinder Honda to a built, 6 second V8, then why not compare that V8 to a jet engine? Why not put Woody Allen into a ring with Mike Tyson? Why? Because they're two completely different things. The simple fact that NA 4 cylinders are well into the 9s proves that they can be fast!

When I go to the track, I make sure I have a quarter tank of gas (for weight reasons... why race with a full tank?) It's not race fuel, it's simple 93 octane pump gas. I drive there with my Kumho HP tires on my 15" OEM alloy rims. I pull in, pay, and get in line. I put on my helmet, run my 1/4 mile, repeat until I'm tired, and drive home.
Can the V8 guys do that? Sure, they might run 2-3 seconds faster, but many of them are on slicks. Unless they live 5 minutes from the track (I live nearly an hour away) they will NOT be driving home on the same gas they came in on!

I'll take my 13 seconds and Honda reliability and efficiency over V8 grunt anyday.

[Accord R33]

Most of the comparisons I see are with built muscle cars, or newer STI's EVO's etc etc etc. Most G35s, 350Zs stock Camaros and Stangs won't outrun a properly driven H Accord, and most that will have at least an equal amount of work done.

I agree with almost everything you said..except that a stock h22 accord is not going to run with an STi or EVO. in a straight line, or ESPECIALLY in the twisties, and it is in a COMPLETELY different class than the 350z and G35. So you cant really compair them

And the only reason other import cars "need to be boosted to make the same power" is because they were designed that way. i hate to keep bringing nissan up in my posts, but take the SR20VE for example. it makes the same power as an H22, has .2 litres less, and it doesnt have turbo. It can be done, they just choose not too.

you dont see many 200+hp. honda motors out there..but there are at least three nissan motors that make close to that much. THe EVO and STi also make more than that.
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[Accord R33]

woops. double post

[deevergote]

Very true.

While Honda isn't as bad as every non-Honda driver tends to make out, they aren't as superior as many Honda people think either.

Honda makes good motors. They're capable of making more power than many people expect, especially the turbo guys. Most people think NA is for big displacement only, and Honda was one of the frontrunners in proving that to be wrong. People STILL choose Honda for 4cylinder NA applications over most others. While the SR20VE may be as powerful as the H22, it's an uncommon choice, clearly overshadowed by the SR20DET.

[Accord R33]

Very true.

While Honda isn't as bad as every non-Honda driver tends to make out, they aren't as superior as many Honda people think either.

very well said, i strongly believe that. Comming from someone who can see both sides of the fence. For every Honda hater in the import community, there is a Honda driver who thinks their car is a gift from god

[deevergote]

And those people are the ones we lovingly call 'ricers'

[owequitit]

I agree with almost everything you said..except that a stock h22 accord is not going to run with an STi or EVO. in a straight line, or ESPECIALLY in the twisties, and it is in a COMPLETELY different class than the 350z and G35. So you cant really compair them

And the only reason other import cars "need to be boosted to make the same power" is because they were designed that way. i hate to keep bringing nissan up in my posts, but take the SR20VE for example. it makes the same power as an H22, has .2 litres less, and it doesnt have turbo. It can be done, they just choose not too.

you dont see many 200+hp. honda motors out there..but there are at least three nissan motors that make close to that much. THe EVO and STi also make more than that.
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I never said Honda could keep up with EVOs and STI's (they can, especially for the same amount of money).

What I said was, if you can't beat a mildly swapped Honda in one of those cars, you need to put a bullet in your head. They have so much more technology it isn't even worth discussing, yet this group seems to be one of the most vocal groups of Honda haters I have ever seen. This group as much as the "muscle" car guys hate on older Honda's.

As far as the 350Z and G35 thing goes, yes they ARE in different classes. They are supposed to be MUCH faster. In reality they aren't. Sorry, but there are several Z/G35 groups around here that have the same attitude about Hondas. I have been in an autocam H22 swapped Accord, with an F22 tranny that has outrun them... Not real impressed based on what they cost. Especially when they are the aggressors. To me they become fair game at that point.

Yes Nissan does have the SR20VE. I actually thought about that one, when I wrote this. It has as much power, but not as much torque, and I have seen B series that make 200HP, but were slower because of the torque disadvantage. Not saying it is a bad engine, and personally, I like Nissans. My first car was a Nissan. I also haven't personally met a lot of Nissan guys that were haters. Maybe because they are an underdog too.

I am also not saying that Honda is the only one that can make fast NA cars, but is pretty commonly accepted knowledge around the industry that they are the best at it.

But on the flip side, take DSM's. They are a 2.0 with a redline that is a mere 200 RPM short of an H22, and it is running 12lbs of boost. .2 NA liters, shouldn't make up the difference between the two. The Honda doesn't have a substantial rev advantage, so you can't count that. Not to mention that if you look at a DSM sideways, it will blow up.

There are plenty of 200HP Honda motors out there. Just not everyone has one. Having said that, it isn't like there are millons of 200HP Nissan Motors running around either. Yeah they are out there, and they are common, but maybe the Honda guys that can back it up aren't really racing. I don't exactly live in the performance Capitol of the world, yet there are plenty of swapped or seriously fast Hondas running around here. They just don't race everybody, because they don't have to prove themselves at every red light. They leave that to the 1.5liter 8 valve Civics. Like Deevergote stated. These are the guys "lovingly" known as ricers.

As far as keeping up with cars in the twisties goes, so much of handling comes down to the setup and driver, it is ridiculous. The driver here is MUCH more important than in any other kind of racing. Case in point: on a poker run here awhile back a STOCK Corrola S (yes, tires and everything) DID keep up with a pretty severely modded WRX (it wasn't an STI, but it was no where near stock either). Oh yeah, it was being driven by a girl too...

Besides, this whole conversation has neglected the prime directive at Honda. FUN TO DRIVE. It doesn't necessarily have to be the fastest thing on the road to get the adrenaline flowing and the pleasure going. I have driven some pretty slow Hondas hard that have lit my fire way more than something that was faster. They are just intuitive and enjoyable. I can also pretty much endlessly flog the crap out them and not worry about the breaking. EVER. Yeah, it's possible, but it seems to be harder to acheive. That increases the fun factor more, because it removes one worry.

I am not a Honda superiorist because I am ignorant and inherited a car from my Mommy. I have driven/owned/worked on pretty much every brand, design, make of car out there, and Honda's just met all of my qualifications the best. I do like other cars too. This was intentionally supposed to be a one sided post.

Besides, for me it is all about the sound, the fact that they do everything else well too, is a bonus. The first car I ever heard that gave me chills was a Honda. It screamed like a pissed off crotch rocket on crack. A demonic blood curdling scream of agony and ecstasy. Any mortal car should have sucked a valve if it was making those noises. I knew from that point on that I had to have one.

[Accord R33]

Im starting to disagree more and more.

you cant compair an h22 vs EVO or STi based on price. one car is 14 years old, while the other is barley over its factory warenty.

your compairing an h22 accord to two luxary vehicals that probably weigh twice as much. again, you cant go based on price since they are brand new cars. The G and the Z both have many other things besides power that a better than an H swapped accord. In fact everything short of their quarter mile time is better than an H swapped accord.

and finally...the SR20VE has 145tq. the h22 has what? 10 more ft/lbs than that? and the cars that preople put SR20VEs in weight hundreds of lbs less anyway.

All im trying to say is that Honda motors are not as godly as honda drivers make them out to be. I know, i used to be one. there was nothing in the world that could top my F22, then i woke up

[deevergote]

The funny thing is that you guys are nearly arguing the same point from different views

[Half-Pint]

I didnt see this mentioned anywhere else so i figured i would mention this. The reason why Honda's are considered the laughing stock is only because of one movie, that made man-hole sized exhausts, purple winshield wiper lights, green underglow, and huge sound systems ok. You could have spent the ridic quanities of money on something else like a turbo or H22. Thats just my .02 cents.

Incase you dont know which movie im talking about the fast and the furious.