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Dsm turbo build questions

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    Dsm turbo build questions

    I've been debating on running a turbo on my cb7. I figured I would post here because I've done some research and it seems as if certain threads are dead or not accessable.
    I found a turbo from a 2g eclipse (14b) on craigslist for 300 with manifold, oil lines and part of the intercooler piping. I'm going to get 450cc injectors, walbro 255 fuel pump, intercooler, piping, blov and headgasket. I just came here to ask a few questions regarding my mission.
    *Where do I buy oil lines for the turbo? (input and return) Will the ones on ebay that are ment for the 14b work?
    *is 300 dollars a good price for turbo with no shaft play and exhaust manifold?
    *Is there a tutorial on where to drill holes on manifold for fitment on cb7 block?
    *Do I use cb7 exhaust manifold gasket or dsm?
    ** I plan on doing this on a stock block and from what I've read the block can withstand anywhere from 8-11 psi with a 14b. This should be alright since the Wastegate is set at 8-9 psi stock?**
    Once again, thank you for answering my questions. I hope to jump into this before winter ends.
    -Skeazzy

    #2
    14 is too small a turbo for our engines. 16 is what people here will recommend. You will have to cut the block for proper figment without a custom manifold. A stock block won't hold any boost for long, as the ringlands will take a shit. Could be a day, could be a year.

    I suggest researching more on forced induction. Turbos aren't bolt ons. You have to build the engine to hold the power, you also have to run engine management software, and that shit isn't cheap.

    If you still use the 14, use the lines you would get for it, and weld in the pan bung. You'll need a 3bar, and I don't know why you would want to drill holes in a manifold.

    If you're gonna change the head gasket, build the headwhile it's off.

    Figure out what HP/TQ goal you want first of all, figure out your budget.

    Reliable turbo = forged internals a must. You'll want Pistons with non-ass status ringlands, stronger rods (depending on hp goal you can shot peen stock), valve springs, retainers, turbo cam, injectors, etc. I can go on. But I won't cause I'm drunk and rambling. Besides.. Low boost f22 = stock h22.

    Comment


      #3
      F22chris is right, the block won't hold boost for long if not built for boost. Also like said the 16g should be the way to go. I tried this setup on a $300 car I bought and parts added up faster than you can imagine. You will lose your front torque mount also, so if your going to keep this setup you better upgrade all your motor mounts to poly.

      Comment


        #4
        Thank you for the fast response. I was wondering about the inlet hose for the turbo the most. Will the stock 14b hose thread into the f22 block where the oil pressure sensor is? Or do I need some sort of adaptor. I'm really set on getting this done. If anything I can get some fun out of my f22 before I make future plans for it. All I was going to do is uprgrade fuel pump, injectors and that's about it to be honest. If it comes down to it, I may throw in some weisco pistons but I can't seem to find any rods that will fit �� and of course oem honda rod bearings would be a must. I'm really eager to dig into this but I need a little but of time and your guys help.
        Last edited by Skeazzy; 11-30-2015, 01:21 PM.

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ol blue View Post
          F22chris is right, the block won't hold boost for long if not built for boost. Also like said the 16g should be the way to go. I tried this setup on a $300 car I bought and parts added up faster than you can imagine. You will lose your front torque mount also, so if your going to keep this setup you better upgrade all your motor mounts to poly.
          You tried the 14b setup or 16? How much did it end up costing you total? How much was the manifold and turbo by itself?

          Comment


            #6
            Even if you build the head up, the 14 will burn your valves. It's small, so it's basically pumping mad hot air into the engine.

            No on the oil sender threading. Cut a hole in the oil pan and weld in an adapter with the correct thread. 16g's are water and oil cooled if I remember correctly so there is that too.

            Look more into engine management. Chipped p06?

            How reliable your car will be is really about the tune.

            Comment


              #7
              The 14b is just fine for the F22A size-wise. toycar posted a VERY detailed thread explaining exactly why, if anyone cares to find it and read through it (edit: I got bored and dug it up... here it is). The belief that it was too small was proven to be misguided, provided that you don't try to push too much out of it. Stick within the turbo's efficiency range, and it will be just fine for the F22A.

              The stock pistons will not hold for long, as said. The ring lands on all pistons found in H and F series engines (probably other Honda engines as well) are not strong enough to handle boost for long, especially if the parts are 25 years old. They simply are not designed for it. Some people have had luck and their stock-block turbo builds have lasted months, even years... but it's just that... luck. They'll tell you "it's all in the tune!" as if their street tuning abilities are super-human... but in reality, it's more luck than anything else. Sure, a good tune, proper components, and sensible driving habits may prolong the life of the stock internals... but ultimately, a ring land WILL break, and you'll be left with an engine rebuild on your hands.
              Install forged pistons now, and you'll be fine for quite a while. The stock sleeves aren't terribly strong, but they should hold up to 400hp with no problem. You won't be seeing 400hp with a 14b anyway (and honestly, once you hit 300-350whp, traction becomes an issue...) If you don't replace the pistons now, a blown ring land could result in damage to the cylinder wall... meaning more expense for you in the future (either from a machine shop, or in replacing the block.)
              www.raceeng.com is where you can find all the internal bits you need.


              You WILL need a stronger clutch. The stock clutch won't hold turbo power for long. Stay away from the cheap junk found on ebay, such as XTD or F1. They are unreliable, and even a 6 puck "stage 3" clutch from those brands probably won't grab much better than a quality stock replacement... and you'll be lucky if it lasts as long. When it comes to clutches, you truly get what you pay for. Buy only what is required for your intended power output. There's no benefit to running a clutch made for 600hp if you're only making 250hp. All that will do is wear your friction surfaces faster. Buy what you need, and buy quality. Exedy/Daikin makes OEM clutches, and they have some upgraded models for performance. I don't know offhand exactly what they offer, but that's where I would start looking. They're quality, and usually affordable. You can use a clutch kit designed for a 92+ Prelude as well (F22A, H22A, H23A), which might expand your options a bit.

              Engine management is where it gets tricky. You will need a tunable ECU to have any hope of reliability. Assuming you don't have the knowledge or tools to tune it yourself, you will need to find a tuner. I would suggest starting your project there... find a tuner that you trust, ask what engine management system they are most comfortable using, and get that. Some may be fine tuning a chipped P06 with Crome. Some may prefer Hondata. Some may prefer systems from AEM, GReddy, Haltech, etc... There are dozens of quality options. Some are quite inexpensive (a chipped P06 can be had for under $50, especially if you know how to solder electronics). Some cost thousands of dollars.
              The key is to find a good tuner that knows how to use an engine management system that you can afford. You don't want to go to a tuner that knows AEM's system inside and out, and expect him to work his magic using Hondata. He might be able to figure it out... but if he does something wrong, you'll be the one with a blown engine.

              Finally, prepare to do a bit of custom pipe work. Intercooler piping requires a bit of creativity, and you may need to find or fabricate a downpipe.
              Also, make sure your brakes are in good shape, and up to the task of stopping a car with 2-3x the stock horsepower.






              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                The 14b is just fine for the F22A size-wise. toycar posted a VERY detailed thread explaining exactly why, if anyone cares to find it and read through it (edit: I got bored and dug it up... here it is). The belief that it was too small was proven to be misguided, provided that you don't try to push too much out of it. Stick within the turbo's efficiency range, and it will be just fine for the F22A.

                The stock pistons will not hold for long, as said. The ring lands on all pistons found in H and F series engines (probably other Honda engines as well) are not strong enough to handle boost for long, especially if the parts are 25 years old. They simply are not designed for it. Some people have had luck and their stock-block turbo builds have lasted months, even years... but it's just that... luck. They'll tell you "it's all in the tune!" as if their street tuning abilities are super-human... but in reality, it's more luck than anything else. Sure, a good tune, proper components, and sensible driving habits may prolong the life of the stock internals... but ultimately, a ring land WILL break, and you'll be left with an engine rebuild on your hands.
                Install forged pistons now, and you'll be fine for quite a while. The stock sleeves aren't terribly strong, but they should hold up to 400hp with no problem. You won't be seeing 400hp with a 14b anyway (and honestly, once you hit 300-350whp, traction becomes an issue...) If you don't replace the pistons now, a blown ring land could result in damage to the cylinder wall... meaning more expense for you in the future (either from a machine shop, or in replacing the block.)
                www.raceeng.com is where you can find all the internal bits you need.


                You WILL need a stronger clutch. The stock clutch won't hold turbo power for long. Stay away from the cheap junk found on ebay, such as XTD or F1. They are unreliable, and even a 6 puck "stage 3" clutch from those brands probably won't grab much better than a quality stock replacement... and you'll be lucky if it lasts as long. When it comes to clutches, you truly get what you pay for. Buy only what is required for your intended power output. There's no benefit to running a clutch made for 600hp if you're only making 250hp. All that will do is wear your friction surfaces faster. Buy what you need, and buy quality. Exedy/Daikin makes OEM clutches, and they have some upgraded models for performance. I don't know offhand exactly what they offer, but that's where I would start looking. They're quality, and usually affordable. You can use a clutch kit designed for a 92+ Prelude as well (F22A, H22A, H23A), which might expand your options a bit.

                Engine management is where it gets tricky. You will need a tunable ECU to have any hope of reliability. Assuming you don't have the knowledge or tools to tune it yourself, you will need to find a tuner. I would suggest starting your project there... find a tuner that you trust, ask what engine management system they are most comfortable using, and get that. Some may be fine tuning a chipped P06 with Crome. Some may prefer Hondata. Some may prefer systems from AEM, GReddy, Haltech, etc... There are dozens of quality options. Some are quite inexpensive (a chipped P06 can be had for under $50, especially if you know how to solder electronics). Some cost thousands of dollars.
                The key is to find a good tuner that knows how to use an engine management system that you can afford. You don't want to go to a tuner that knows AEM's system inside and out, and expect him to work his magic using Hondata. He might be able to figure it out... but if he does something wrong, you'll be the one with a blown engine.

                Finally, prepare to do a bit of custom pipe work. Intercooler piping requires a bit of creativity, and you may need to find or fabricate a downpipe.
                Also, make sure your brakes are in good shape, and up to the task of stopping a car with 2-3x the stock horsepower.
                Thank you so much for the response Deev. Honestly, this forum makes me feel more comfortable being a member then hondatech ever did just lurking. You have me a lot of information but I'm still confused for the oil inlet line. The line that I get obviously has to fit on the turbo and thread into the block. Do you by chance have any links where I can purchase one or how I'm suppose to do this task?
                As for clutch, I replaced the clutch with a stage one every clutch mate's to a luk flywheel. I'm only really shooting for the 300 hp range. Maybe 350 If I want to take it that far. Just a fun dd that will still smash.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Skeazzy View Post

                  *Where do I buy oil lines for the turbo? (input and return) Will the ones on ebay that are ment for the 14b work?Your best bet is to purchase a sandwich plate and related fittings to go from the oil filter housing to the turbo rather than using the oil pressure switch port which can fail due to added weight and vibration

                  *Is there a tutorial on where to drill holes on manifold for fitment on cb7 block?
                  *Do I use cb7 exhaust manifold gasket or dsm?

                  Use the CB manifold gasket to mark where to drill on the DSM manifold
                  ** I plan on doing this on a stock block and from what I've read the block can withstand anywhere from 8-11 psi with a 14b. This should be alright since the Wastegate is set at 8-9 psi stock?**

                  If your going to stick to a stock block, keep it to 5-6 psi. that will push you up to around 200-220hp at the wheels. you can lower the boost by bending the wastegate bracket, there are some threads on a few DSM forums on how to do this

                  -Skeazzy
                  Originally posted by F22Chris View Post
                  Even if you build the head up, the 14 will burn your valves. It's small, so it's basically pumping mad hot air into the engine.

                  Burning valves is more common due to poor tuning and timing settings than how much boost you can push through it. Regardless of how small a turbo is, the charge air temperature, while it does play a role in how well the burn within the cylinder takes place, it has little to do with the cause for burnt valves.

                  No on the oil sender threading. Cut a hole in the oil pan and weld in an adapter with the correct thread. 16g's are water and oil cooled if I remember correctly so there is that too.

                  Its not nessassary to water cool the turbo IMO, oil is more important but if you want to run water through it you can port water from the throttle body or IAC lines

                  Look more into engine management. Chipped p06?

                  Run Hondata or similar. your engine and tuner will thank you

                  How reliable your car will be is really about the tune.
                  Originally posted by Skeazzy View Post
                  You have me a lot of information but I'm still confused for the oil inlet line. The line that I get obviously has to fit on the turbo and thread into the block. Do you by chance have any links where I can purchase one or how I'm suppose to do this task?
                  As for clutch, I replaced the clutch with a stage one every clutch mate's to a luk flywheel. I'm only really shooting for the 300 hp range. Maybe 350 If I want to take it that far. Just a fun dd that will still smash.
                  Read above on oil lines. for the clutch in my experience i was able to hold 320hp on a stock clutch before it started to slip, that being said, i have seen so called stage 1 clutches slip at 250hp but this also depends on how you drive. I personally slip the fuck out of my clutch on purpose, its the only way to prevent drivetrain damage due to shock from torque, its not exactly a great way to prevent clutch wear but its cheaper to replace a good clutch disc than damaged transmission and driveline parts long term, then again im also putting close to 500ft-lbs of torque down and have a 1500$ clutch in my car as well as a clutch slip valve installed

                  My Wiretuck/ Insane engine bay
                  member ride thread
                  11.86@120mph T66 turbo 612hp F22A
                  DIVULGE MOTORSPORTS
                  People can hate all they want, my f22 is faster than yours.
                  I have literally been on this site for 10 years, I know what i am talking about!
                  John 10:18 "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. "

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Where do I find all the fittings for the oil return and input. Please link me, that would be great.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I'm at work so I don't know if the link actually works, but this is what I used when I originally did it.

                      http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...ght=accord+r33

                      Also, Accord_R33 has a basemap floating around for the f22a with a 14b somewhere that you could use
                      Shift_BOOST

                      BOOM!

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Basemap is no good for anything more than getting the car running so it can be tuned, though. I've known many people who thought a basemap could be driven on... and they blew up very quickly. In fact, I got my ECU tuned by MRX because the guy that initially hired him (and flew him from FL to Philly) blew his engine the night before while racing on a basemap!






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