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Twincharging a CB

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    Twincharging a CB

    Ive done some research seen a few custom setups and now the wheels are spinning. Would it be possible to run lets say an eaton m45 to a turbo of your size choosing on an f22 or h22. I personally think its possible what about you guys.

    #2
    Possible, yes.
    Cheap, no.


    The only supercharger setup you can get is a Jackson Racing H22 one. And that alone is at least $2k. Not to mention re turbo portion.

    You'd be better off dumping money into building an F22 for boost, get a good manifold and turbo, and go from there.

    Comment


      #3
      This would be what would happen in mind.
      I wonder how this turned out.. anyway



      Now in reality over the top for me at least now, This is more of a project for after schooling is over and i get enough money. Shouldnt be too hard though. I heard you could pull one off of a mercedes SLK230 for a decent price at a salvage yard.

      Comment


        #4
        i would be very curious to see how the valving could be set up to open/close/throttle the combination. it looks like the SC is pushing into the TC, which goes to the intercooler on the way to the Throttle body. I would imagine that outlet sticking out of the SC pipe is some sort of wastegate, does it limit the pressure output, or does it open at a certain RPM? I would imagine there still needs to be a BOV on the final output pipe before the throttle plate. Is the SC always running across the whole power band?

        there would need to be a lot of careful consideration of the overall action of everything: I always assumed the goal of having the SC was to have it run at low RPM before the Very Large Turbo spools, but once the turbo spools up, to have the SC get disconnected to a free-air turbo inlet so the roots shape of the SC does not act as an intake restriction once the turbo really gets going, allowing the turbo to take over and breathe normally. This does not seem to be very commonly done, though, especially on a smaller honda arrangement. It seems it is common to just combine one into the other and have them both running at the same time (unless the valving is doing something I'm missing?). If this is the case then I think it ends up being that the SC ends up acting as a restriction on the large turbo and youll end up wasting potential, where it would be more efficient and powerful to actually use two turbos, one small, and one large. But I could be wrong, but in my mind, is just indication of the complexity of what needs to be considered all at the same time to make sure everything balances out to be what you expect and tune for. Which is another topic altogether, is it easy to tune the fuel/throttle maps of a setup like this? I would imagine it isn't in the wheelhouse of your common tuner.

        Anyway, I drew this a year or two ago, when I was intrigued by the same idea.. I think this is how I would end up doing it:



        My reasoning for this configuration was that when the throttle plate (and SC Bypass plate) are both closed, the vacuum seen on the "water injection manifold" would close the turbo wastegate (making boost) and also open the "bypass valve" which allows the SC to pull fresh air via an alternate route directly from the intake filter, bypassing the turbo entirely (since it is large and not spooled up yet, and is acting as a restriction). Then when the throttle opens, the SC freely builds boost at lower RPMs, it begins to close the bypass valve, pulling from the turbo instead (as it should be spooling up now). As the turbo builds pressure, at a certain point (RPM? Boost amount?) the "S/C Bypass" plate can open, allowing a secondary path for turbo-pressure air to bypass the supercharger (which at this point is acting as a restriction to the big turbo). The S/C Bypass plate would be similar to the throttle body, and would never be allowed to open MORE than the throttle body (in other words, if the throttle closes, the S/C Bypass would need to close, too) but opening the throttle should not necessarily open the S/C Bypass. It would basically need to be controlled by a dual-cable setup similar to how the Cruise Control cable pulls on the gas pedal, without technically restricting manual action of the gas pedal itself... the gas pedal would need to control the throttle plate, and at the same time provide working range for the SC Bypass to be opened by the RPM-limit activated solenoid (not pictured), but only as far open as the throttle cable currently is (havent fully thought this piece out.. might be the akilles heel. Or maybe it is as simple as combining a WOT switch, or turbo pressure limit sensor, along with the RPM limit switch). Anyway, then the intercooler sits after the turbo, cooling down the exhaust-heated air, so it is nice and dense to be compressed by the SC. Since the SC itself is not touching the exhaust I dont think it necessarily requires the intercooler to be AFTER the SC. Then the water injection would take care of final quick-dropping of the temperature, decreasing predetonation, allowing more compression/boost and cleaner running system. Also one other thing to note is that the normal turbo wastegate adjustment would need to be set higher than normal, considering it will also see pressure from the S/C playing into it, and you don't want that prematurely wastegating the turbo. In this configuration, a BOV is not required, because if the throttle plate suddenly closes, the vacuum seen on the manifold would suddenly open the Bypass Valve, which basically turns the intake into a figure-8 loop through the turbo.... it doesnt need to blow the air out, because there is plenty of piping for it to loop back around through. And if it truly is too much pressure it could bleed out through the air intake I guess, but I don't think that would happen if the Bypass Valve is large enough diameter (I think I would actually construct it out of an actual BOV, rather than a vacuum-driven Wastegate... but pipe it back into the intake before the turbo, instead of blowing out to environment. Some BOV units have dual vacuum nipples for you to control it with vacuum rather than pressure, basically just an extra large version of an external wastegate). I would also probably point the turbo downward and do a FMIC rather than a top mount intercooler like the picture you posted.
        Last edited by cp[mike]; 02-07-2017, 01:30 AM.


        - 1993 Accord LX - White sedan (sold)
        - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (wrecked)
        - 1991 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
        - 1990 Accord EX - Grey sedan (sold)
        - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
        - 1992 Accord EX - White coupe (sold)
        - 1993 Accord EX - Grey coupe (stolen)
        - 1993 Accord SE - Gold coupe (sold)
        Current cars:
        - 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon - Daily driver
        - 2004 Chevrolet Express AWD - Camper conversion

        Comment


          #5
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3moKulpctN0

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rblb_ANtrE

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jdN-vlXpiU

          I am the Yakuza CB7!
          JDM 96spec H22A 178HP 149TQ

          "The JDM Fleet"

          1993 Accord Sedan - 2.2 JDM H22a
          1994 Prelude V-Tec
          1999 CL 3.0
          2000 Prelude
          2010 Accord Crosstour - 3.5

          1993 Mirage S Sedan - 2.0 4G63 Project Evo 2.5
          1994 Mirage S Sedan - 1.5

          1991 Isuzu Impulse RS - 1.6 AWD Turbo
          1993 Asuna - 1.8 "CDM Impulse XS"

          1993 Sentra SE-R - 2.0 SR20de
          1995 200sx SE-R - 2.0 Sr20ve

          Comment


            #6
            wow, that prelude is a beast!! I'm not even sure how one would make all of that function....

            Comment


              #7
              Does anyone know where to find that XSpower accessory thats connected before the intake, I went on the site and i havent found any hits on it yet

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Reusster View Post
                Does anyone know where to find that XSpower accessory thats connected before the intake, I went on the site and i havent found any hits on it yet
                No. In over 10 years of being on this site, etc, I have never seen any XSpower accessories for our car like I'm seeing in these vids. Hopefully someone else has.

                Comment


                  #9
                  that last video is very interesting, thank you very much! electronic controlled throttle body from a nissan being used as a S/C Bypass valve... excellent

                  also, this guy explains the setup with a drawing pretty nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4birhPB5Twk



                  the only thing I would be iffy on is the "mid rpm range" where he has both the SC and TC running at the same time, with the valve half open. I feel like this would be prone to error and tough to configure to be sure that the valve doesnt open until you know the turbo is spooled (if not, the SC may blow pressure back out the intake, no?). The guy with the toyota in the video links posted by Warudakumi has it cross over instantly, instead of progressively. As soon as the S/C is disengaged, the bypass valve is opened fully.
                  Last edited by cp[mike]; 02-07-2017, 06:07 PM.


                  - 1993 Accord LX - White sedan (sold)
                  - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (wrecked)
                  - 1991 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
                  - 1990 Accord EX - Grey sedan (sold)
                  - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
                  - 1992 Accord EX - White coupe (sold)
                  - 1993 Accord EX - Grey coupe (stolen)
                  - 1993 Accord SE - Gold coupe (sold)
                  Current cars:
                  - 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon - Daily driver
                  - 2004 Chevrolet Express AWD - Camper conversion

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Reusster View Post
                    Does anyone know where to find that XSpower accessory thats connected before the intake, I went on the site and i havent found any hits on it yet
                    the XS Power brand is irrelevant, but that particular component is called a "Water to Air Intercooler" -- it requires a cooling system and water pump to flow water/alcohol across the intercooler fins to super-cool the intake air. More efficient than a normal air-to-air intercooler that you normally see mounted in the front bumpers of cars, but also more complicated, and critically reliant on the water plumbing. It also has a separate radiator that mounts in the front of the car, to keep the coolant cool.



                    - 1993 Accord LX - White sedan (sold)
                    - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (wrecked)
                    - 1991 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
                    - 1990 Accord EX - Grey sedan (sold)
                    - 1993 Accord EX - White sedan (sold)
                    - 1992 Accord EX - White coupe (sold)
                    - 1993 Accord EX - Grey coupe (stolen)
                    - 1993 Accord SE - Gold coupe (sold)
                    Current cars:
                    - 2005 Subaru Legacy GT Wagon - Daily driver
                    - 2004 Chevrolet Express AWD - Camper conversion

                    Comment


                      #11
                      A setup like the prelude is posible obviously since accord and prelude bay are the same size, the second setup which i assume is a D series would not happen simply because there is no room for both the turbo and supercharger in the front.
                      Has there been anybody that actually made a supercharger work on here? i know one was trying but not sure if it did and how it turned out. There are simpler ways of having lower end power(small turbo), i think sometimes on trying to push the envelope we create more problems than solutions. Below is a picture of a HE351 to show the lack of space in front of the engine; ps, ac fan, ac lines, front mount will have to be removed to fit this thing in there and even then the space will be minimal.
                      [/URL]
                      [url=https://flic.kr/p/2hFNC7Z]

                      Comment


                        #12
                        We've had at least two members attempting a twincharge setup. I don't think either of them have been completed, though. Not yet, anyway. I'm hoping at least one of them is still underway!

                        I wonder if a centrifugal supercharger would work better in a twincharged setup. I mean, it's basically the compressor side of a turbo spun by the crank pulley instead of exhaust gasses. Essentially, it would be similar to a twin turbo setup, only more practical on a small 4 cylinder engine.

                        Twincharging has been done by OEMs on a few occasions. Volvo is doing it right now in multiple models. I don't think they have an engine larger than a 4 cylinder in anything, even their biggest vehicles. They just keep adding stuff... supercharger, turbocharger, electric motors... it's fantastic. The T8 models with all of that stuff will be pushing out 400hp.






                        Comment


                          #13
                          What Deeve mentioned would be a good idea, an old friend used to run the novi series on a Grand National and loved it. Had a friend ask me last time if he could run twin turbo on his civic, I suppose with the right amount of money, imagination and determination not to only design it and make it work but also to deal with all the gremlins awoken by such adventurous builds anything is possible. I like to always use my old buddy with the datsun z as an example; he wanted an RB powered z, so he took a pristine 73 Z and turned it into a RB powered place holder since its been 9 years and it's still not running yet.
                          [url=https://flic.kr/p/2hFNC7Z]

                          Comment


                            #14
                            It would be nice to be able to pull it off but where to put all the goods... theres hardly enough room for a turbo let alone a turbo and a SC. but if someone could do it thatd be a truly unique ride on the forum, one of the things that have been talked about but not done.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              You'd have to ditch AC and PS for sure, and you'd need more than a simple log manifold for the turbo. Given the ccw engine rotation of the F and H series engines, the supercharger would either need to be mounted in a place that will spin it the right way, or hooked to a gearbox that will provide the proper rotation.
                              It would require some creativity, for sure.






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