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Old 06-20-2018, 01:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
If it wasn’t for the ctr, the Si would’ve gotten the 2.0t. Honda couldn’t risk putting that engine, even in a detuned state, into a significantly cheaper car. The ctr isn’t exactly flying off showroom floors as it is. Nobody would buy one if they could just put an extra $1500 into an Si that cost $8000 less and get a rough approximation of a ctr.

How similar are the Focus ST and RS engines?
I disagree. The Accord engine is actually vastly different than the Type-R in this day and age. It is around 50+HP down on the CTR stock, and quite a bit of torque and the difference is magnified when you start modding it. Smaller turbo, different valves, etc.

The hard reality is that 2.0T in the Accord is almost exactly on par with a GTI in terms of stock output and modded output, and both fall significantly short of the Type-R, which is stronger than both the RS and the Golf R on dyno tests (it puts down a little over 300WHP stock.

Then you have the Si with smaller brakes, less sophisticated suspension, softer tuning to be more focused on being a DD with the ability to do SOME track driving or back road stuff, and a completely different form factor and you would be in the same boat as the GTI guys. You would have to spend a lot of money modding the car to get to stock Type-R levels, and would likely spend more. Even if they had to detune it more from the Accord, it STILL would have been a better engine than the POS 1.5T.

As for Type-R not moving well, I am not sure who told you that, but it doesn't seem to be true. Every single one I have seen on the lot since they came out was sold when it got there, and I have just recently heard of people actually being able to get them for MSRP. I have also seen quite a few more Civic Type-R's running around locally than either Golf-R's or Focus RS's. And none of them were designed to be "high volume."

IMO, Honda squandered an opportunity to not be the laughing stock of the Sport Compact segment because the Si could have been 2/3 the car a Type R was for 2/3 the price and been much more focused on being dual use and it would have been no major factor for the Type-R which is much more hardcore. It is the same balance the ST and RS and the GTI and Golf R have successfully managed. In fact, if Honda HAD done that, I would probably be driving an Si right now. Such an Si would have been about $26K and it would have been worth every penny. As it is, Honda was blowing Si's out just a few months ago for a $199 lease deal, which is about what you get for a Civic LX lease special. It worked out to about $21K for the car, or almost $4K off of sticker.
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Old 06-20-2018, 02:11 AM   #42
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I thought they were killing off all of the sedans and replacing them with a small SUV (a lifted Focus)?
Ah, yes, I forgot I heard about that move away from cars.
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Old 06-20-2018, 09:06 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by owequitit View Post
I disagree. The Accord engine is actually vastly different than the Type-R in this day and age. It is around 50+HP down on the CTR stock, and quite a bit of torque and the difference is magnified when you start modding it. Smaller turbo, different valves, etc.

The hard reality is that 2.0T in the Accord is almost exactly on par with a GTI in terms of stock output and modded output, and both fall significantly short of the Type-R, which is stronger than both the RS and the Golf R on dyno tests (it puts down a little over 300WHP stock.

Then you have the Si with smaller brakes, less sophisticated suspension, softer tuning to be more focused on being a DD with the ability to do SOME track driving or back road stuff, and a completely different form factor and you would be in the same boat as the GTI guys. You would have to spend a lot of money modding the car to get to stock Type-R levels, and would likely spend more. Even if they had to detune it more from the Accord, it STILL would have been a better engine than the POS 1.5T.

As for Type-R not moving well, I am not sure who told you that, but it doesn't seem to be true. Every single one I have seen on the lot since they came out was sold when it got there, and I have just recently heard of people actually being able to get them for MSRP. I have also seen quite a few more Civic Type-R's running around locally than either Golf-R's or Focus RS's. And none of them were designed to be "high volume."

IMO, Honda squandered an opportunity to not be the laughing stock of the Sport Compact segment because the Si could have been 2/3 the car a Type R was for 2/3 the price and been much more focused on being dual use and it would have been no major factor for the Type-R which is much more hardcore. It is the same balance the ST and RS and the GTI and Golf R have successfully managed. In fact, if Honda HAD done that, I would probably be driving an Si right now. Such an Si would have been about $26K and it would have been worth every penny. As it is, Honda was blowing Si's out just a few months ago for a $199 lease deal, which is about what you get for a Civic LX lease special. It worked out to about $21K for the car, or almost $4K off of sticker.
Having driven the Focus ST, WRX, and Si (with the Hondata Flash) of the most recent vintage, I'd still buy the Si. I found it to be the most enjoyable car of the bunch to drive. It's not the best on paper, but putting them through their paces, I like it the most.
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:08 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AccordWarrior View Post
Having driven the Focus ST, WRX, and Si (with the Hondata Flash) of the most recent vintage, I'd still buy the Si. I found it to be the most enjoyable car of the bunch to drive. It's not the best on paper, but putting them through their paces, I like it the most.
Yeah, but it wasn't stock. You can start to modify the others too.

I liked pretty much everything about the Si. Except the engine. It didn't help that I tested it in 95* Texas heat and the thing literally fell flat on its face. As in, my 2009 Si had more low RPM power flat on its face. Then, when it finally DID start to pull a little bit, it smashed into the rev limiter not long after.

I haven't tested one out here yet where the gas is 91 octane pee water and temps are about 20-30* hotter.

The other issue I had was that the engine wasn't particularly smooth and it revved like it had a 60lb flywheel. I used to complain about the "rev hang" on my 2009 Si, but it was nothing compared to what I was getting on the new Si. It made my 2.3x the size V6 Accord feel like it had a race flywheel.

Compared to the 2.0T Accord engine, it just isn't a contest. The Si as it is compared to the Nismo Sentra and Elantra GT vs the GTI, WRX, ST, or any of those. If you start throwing mods at all of them, it gets even worse.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:54 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by owequitit View Post
Yeah, but it wasn't stock. You can start to modify the others too.

I liked pretty much everything about the Si. Except the engine. It didn't help that I tested it in 95* Texas heat and the thing literally fell flat on its face. As in, my 2009 Si had more low RPM power flat on its face. Then, when it finally DID start to pull a little bit, it smashed into the rev limiter not long after.

I haven't tested one out here yet where the gas is 91 octane pee water and temps are about 20-30* hotter.

The other issue I had was that the engine wasn't particularly smooth and it revved like it had a 60lb flywheel. I used to complain about the "rev hang" on my 2009 Si, but it was nothing compared to what I was getting on the new Si. It made my 2.3x the size V6 Accord feel like it had a race flywheel.

Compared to the 2.0T Accord engine, it just isn't a contest. The Si as it is compared to the Nismo Sentra and Elantra GT vs the GTI, WRX, ST, or any of those. If you start throwing mods at all of them, it gets even worse.
The 1.5 rev hang is one of the worst features Honda has added to an engine. It takes whatever remaining soul is left in the motor and chucks it out the window by making it feel like molasses between gear changes.
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Old 06-21-2018, 10:13 AM   #46
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Honda could easily have afforded to put the 2.0T in as well. A real missed opportunity.

I was hoping the new Insight would use the 1.5T as the gas engine too. Weird decisions.
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im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:10 PM   #47
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Honda could easily have afforded to put the 2.0T in as well. A real missed opportunity.

I was hoping the new Insight would use the 1.5T as the gas engine too. Weird decisions.
Imagine the Fit Sport with the 1.5T - that'd be an instabuy for a lot of people.

Honda has historically offered mediocre trims and options for US buyers:

-No pano sunroof option on CR-V in the US, but offered in Canada
-No heated steering wheel option in any US Honda vehicles, but offered in Canada
-No manual transmission option on Civic Sport Touring in the US, but offered in Canada
-No upgraded stereo feature on the Accord Sport
-No heated seats on the 1.5T Accord Sport
-Civic & CR-V still using abhorrent infotainment instead of the excellent system in the Odyssey and Accord
-No heated seats or sunroof in the Type-R, but is equipped in the "Touring" trim
-No Si trim in the hatchback bodystyle

I could go on and on. I still love Honda's products, but like VW, they sort of shaft US buyers on options.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:14 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by verothacamaro View Post
Imagine the Fit Sport with the 1.5T - that'd be an instabuy for a lot of people.

Honda has historically offered mediocre trims and options for US buyers:

-No pano sunroof option on CR-V in the US, but offered in Canada
-No heated steering wheel option in any US Honda vehicles, but offered in Canada
-No manual transmission option on Civic Sport Touring in the US, but offered in Canada
-No upgraded stereo feature on the Accord Sport
-No heated seats on the 1.5T Accord Sport
-Civic & CR-V still using abhorrent infotainment instead of the excellent system in the Odyssey and Accord
-No heated seats or sunroof in the Type-R, but is equipped in the "Touring" trim
-No Si trim in the hatchback bodystyle

I could go on and on. I still love Honda's products, but like VW, they sort of shaft US buyers on options.
Always have, most likely always will.
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:10 PM   #49
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I'm hoping Honda rectifies these aesthetic and engine issues in the revamped Acura lineup. Everyone is excited for the V6TT- I could care less honestly. I'm more excited for the prospect of a more powerful parallel hybrid setup running through the 10AT. A new ILX with the 1.5T + 10AT + a good hybrid system + P-AWS would make for a very nice and economical daily.

I was also hoping the CTR would be available in sedan trim. But yea Honda has always made weird packaging moves, all the way back to the different IM on the F22A6 vs H23A1....
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Old 06-21-2018, 04:26 PM   #50
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-No heated seats or sunroof in the Type-R, but is equipped in the "Touring" trim
I don't care what the modern hot hatch is, I was disappointed to learn the Type R was as well-equipped as it is. To me, the Type R should have stayed a bare-bones track special that emphasized shedding weight. Instead I'm finding it's about 300 lbs heavier than the base hatch.
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:35 PM   #51
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Wife got hecka sick on Tuesday and I’m nursing her cold. Hopefully the grey 16’ is available in the next two weeks.

On the CTR, it’s probably a very decent car. I just can’t bring myself to buy something with those horrid and huge plastic mesh things on the bumpers. They needed to take two steps back and stay there on the appearance imho. I’ve never driven one, and I don’t plan on it unless a friend gets one. I’m just thinking that stock for stock, the ST is better. I’m not going to go crazy with it if it becomes reality, just bolt ons and a turbosmart BPV for the wooshies.

And veroth I agree. I’d buy a turbo Fit if it was a factory option for sure.

Where was the V6 Barra when the Supra died out? It’s not just Honda - it’s everybody. Even the usdm didn’t give us the shit we potentially wanted. I’d buy a G8 style Holden Ute or a Falcon Ute in a heartbeat.
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Old 06-21-2018, 07:39 PM   #52
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Yeah, but it wasn't stock. You can start to modify the others too.

I liked pretty much everything about the Si. Except the engine. It didn't help that I tested it in 95* Texas heat and the thing literally fell flat on its face. As in, my 2009 Si had more low RPM power flat on its face. Then, when it finally DID start to pull a little bit, it smashed into the rev limiter not long after.

I haven't tested one out here yet where the gas is 91 octane pee water and temps are about 20-30* hotter.

The other issue I had was that the engine wasn't particularly smooth and it revved like it had a 60lb flywheel. I used to complain about the "rev hang" on my 2009 Si, but it was nothing compared to what I was getting on the new Si. It made my 2.3x the size V6 Accord feel like it had a race flywheel.

Compared to the 2.0T Accord engine, it just isn't a contest. The Si as it is compared to the Nismo Sentra and Elantra GT vs the GTI, WRX, ST, or any of those. If you start throwing mods at all of them, it gets even worse.
Even before the flash, with the rev hang I’d still buy it.

It’s my subjective opinion having driven most of the similar competing models. The GTI I drove was a generation or two earlier but the Sentra Nismo and Elantra GT don’t even appear to be on the same plane.

I couldn’t give a crap about how fast it is. We live in a world where even my wife’s Grand Cherokee with a V-6 can almost break into the high 6 second range to 60. The Civic Si is an attractive package for the money.

You can slam your opinions down my throat but if I needed to purchase a car in the mid-20 range that would be it. Cockpit adjustable suspension, comfy seats, lots of trunk space and a fantastic shifter, I’m sold.
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Old 06-21-2018, 08:14 PM   #53
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Scott can be a little.... insistent I wouldn't take it personally.

The 1.5T still gives me pause, especially with the 20 or whatever PSI of boost it's making. Honda got ~190HP out of a 1.6L with no turbo 20 years ago, so this is a little surprising. In any case, I have faith that the engine is stout, and from an ownership perspective Honda always has an advantage. I would not put my faith in a VW or Ford in the long term. Plus a torquey low 15 second car is quick enough for the street. I would want a little more, and think it's a little disappointing Honda is barely making more power than the Si from 10 years ago, but it's not a bad package overall. Most of the gripes are academic or in its "potential" which really doesn't matter.
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Old 06-22-2018, 01:27 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by AccordWarrior View Post
Even before the flash, with the rev hang I’d still buy it.

It’s my subjective opinion having driven most of the similar competing models. The GTI I drove was a generation or two earlier but the Sentra Nismo and Elantra GT don’t even appear to be on the same plane.

I couldn’t give a crap about how fast it is. We live in a world where even my wife’s Grand Cherokee with a V-6 can almost break into the high 6 second range to 60. The Civic Si is an attractive package for the money.

You can slam your opinions down my throat but if I needed to purchase a car in the mid-20 range that would be it. Cockpit adjustable suspension, comfy seats, lots of trunk space and a fantastic shifter, I’m sold.
You can buy whatever you like, just like I can and I never said otherwise.

The funny thing is that you are complaining about me "slamming my opinions down your throat," but you were actually the one that came on and tried to correct my opinion... Go figure.

I wouldn't buy an Si because compared to the 2.0T they could have put in there, the engine they chose sucks. Simple as that. Buy away if you like.

I owned an Si (and loved to death) an Si that would get eaten by a lot of economy cars today, so I am not sure at what point the conversation became all about speed.

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Old 06-22-2018, 01:33 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
Scott can be a little.... insistent I wouldn't take it personally.

The 1.5T still gives me pause, especially with the 20 or whatever PSI of boost it's making. Honda got ~190HP out of a 1.6L with no turbo 20 years ago, so this is a little surprising. In any case, I have faith that the engine is stout, and from an ownership perspective Honda always has an advantage. I would not put my faith in a VW or Ford in the long term. Plus a torquey low 15 second car is quick enough for the street. I would want a little more, and think it's a little disappointing Honda is barely making more power than the Si from 10 years ago, but it's not a bad package overall. Most of the gripes are academic or in its "potential" which really doesn't matter.
The gripe is that a car like the GTI is substantially faster than it was 10 years ago and the Si is not. It has also traded away a huge amount of character in the process. It corners flatter, but with similar tires, it is about on par with where mine was handling wise. It is also certainly more refined.

Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons power isn't much improved is that they have a lot of new regulations to meet.

It actually frustrates me because I have little desire to own a Type-R and the Accord 2.0T Sport lacks the features I like. The Touring has no manual option. The Si with the detuned 2.0T (which we know fits) would have been PERFECT for anybody who might want a little more power than the current Si, better chassis tuning, LSD and still a reasonable level of comfort and convenience. I also love the way the sedan Si looks. The only other thing I thought was pretty bad was the seat fabric. I guess the days of faux alcantara are long gone in favor of something that felt like dish cloth.

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Old 06-22-2018, 01:35 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by verothacamaro View Post
Imagine the Fit Sport with the 1.5T - that'd be an instabuy for a lot of people.

Honda has historically offered mediocre trims and options for US buyers:

-No pano sunroof option on CR-V in the US, but offered in Canada
-No heated steering wheel option in any US Honda vehicles, but offered in Canada
-No manual transmission option on Civic Sport Touring in the US, but offered in Canada
-No upgraded stereo feature on the Accord Sport
-No heated seats on the 1.5T Accord Sport
-Civic & CR-V still using abhorrent infotainment instead of the excellent system in the Odyssey and Accord
-No heated seats or sunroof in the Type-R, but is equipped in the "Touring" trim
-No Si trim in the hatchback bodystyle

I could go on and on. I still love Honda's products, but like VW, they sort of shaft US buyers on options.
The 1.5T would have been a GREAT Fit Si engine. It also would make life in our HR-V much more tolerable. That said, the HR-V is too small, so I might trade it in for something else in the not-to-distant future. We like the CR-V, Santa Fe and Grand Cherokee.
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Old 06-22-2018, 08:35 AM   #57
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The gripe is that a car like the GTI is substantially faster than it was 10 years ago and the Si is not. It has also traded away a huge amount of character in the process. It corners flatter, but with similar tires, it is about on par with where mine was handling wise. It is also certainly more refined.

Also, keep in mind that one of the reasons power isn't much improved is that they have a lot of new regulations to meet.

It actually frustrates me because I have little desire to own a Type-R and the Accord 2.0T Sport lacks the features I like. The Touring has no manual option. The Si with the detuned 2.0T (which we know fits) would have been PERFECT for anybody who might want a little more power than the current Si, better chassis tuning, LSD and still a reasonable level of comfort and convenience. I also love the way the sedan Si looks. The only other thing I thought was pretty bad was the seat fabric. I guess the days of faux alcantara are long gone in favor of something that felt like dish cloth.
Speed is only one piece of the puzzle. Plus it's not like the Si is slow- remember when you berated me for having a negative opinion of that 10 year old Civic's power delivery? Current Civic is just as fast in a way that doesn't require you to wring its neck at every stoplight.

Like I said I agree that the 1.5T was a mistake. But at the same time, I think if I had to pick between the two cars, especially to own beyond the warranty period, I'd go with the Civic every time. You look at a 10 year old CSi vs GTI.... I actually have been looking at FG2s for track duty, because I know they can take a beating. Honda has been doing the 4 banger better than everyone else for 30 years. I wouldn't trust an MKV as far as I could throw it at this stage in the game.

Plus the latest GTI has moved to some quasi electronic LSD that is just not as good as the regular helical LSD in the CSi. Honda's manual transmission is better. I prefer the GTI's size and looks but the CSi is roomier. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it.

Right now I'm driving a Kia Optima SX.... it has a lot more philosophical problems.... but it's comfy and it gets me where I need to go. Could I have got a 9th gen Accord so I could wax poetic about having the last J35 and all that? Sure, but I prefer the Kia's looks and wanted something different. Sometimes that's all the justification necessary.
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Old 06-23-2018, 03:31 PM   #58
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Reading through this thread, and not one person mention the Volvo S40 T5R or S60 T5R. I am kind of saddened by this after all the engine in the Focus is a variant of said engines found in the aforementioned cars.

As for the new line of Honda's, I was over the Civic Type R after I seen reviews and honestly if I had a choice I'd be in the 2.0T as well. Even then dare I say it but Honda's line up is kind of boring now. Not many offerings for a standard transaxle and not near as many offerings as they used to have in the past (Looks at Honda Preludes). And it just may be the USDM market that seems to suck in this regard. This is my 2 cents. I think I'll go test drive a few and see what I like the most and I'll be sure to put more input in as needed.
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Do you really need to make a thread asking if having your car like this /---\ will cause uneven tire wear? Try walking like that for a few weeks and see if your shoes wear funny! (hint: they will.)
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:28 AM   #59
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Speed is only one piece of the puzzle. Plus it's not like the Si is slow- remember when you berated me for having a negative opinion of that 10 year old Civic's power delivery? Current Civic is just as fast in a way that doesn't require you to wring its neck at every stoplight.

Like I said I agree that the 1.5T was a mistake. But at the same time, I think if I had to pick between the two cars, especially to own beyond the warranty period, I'd go with the Civic every time. You look at a 10 year old CSi vs GTI.... I actually have been looking at FG2s for track duty, because I know they can take a beating. Honda has been doing the 4 banger better than everyone else for 30 years. I wouldn't trust an MKV as far as I could throw it at this stage in the game.

Plus the latest GTI has moved to some quasi electronic LSD that is just not as good as the regular helical LSD in the CSi. Honda's manual transmission is better. I prefer the GTI's size and looks but the CSi is roomier. I don't think it's as cut and dry as you make it.

Right now I'm driving a Kia Optima SX.... it has a lot more philosophical problems.... but it's comfy and it gets me where I need to go. Could I have got a 9th gen Accord so I could wax poetic about having the last J35 and all that? Sure, but I prefer the Kia's looks and wanted something different. Sometimes that's all the justification necessary.
The Si actually is pretty slow. Basic GTI's are almost a full second quicker and about 5-8MPH faster through the quarter mile than the Si. The Si is more on par with the Sentra Nismo and the Elantra GT performance wise (it wasn't coincidental that I mentioned them).

I have actually driven both, and I was actually being facetious specifically because of your criticism of the K20Z3. Not only was the new car less flexible, but it really didn't have more torque anywhere below 3500 (where it finally hit full boost in the 95* temps) and it fell flat on its face at ~5500. So you had a 2000RPM power band under those conditions. Further, my Si had a Flashpro stock tune on it, and in exchange for losing the "VTEC just kicked in YO!" sensation, I gained about 15-20HP over a 2000RPM range, noticeable torque below that, noticeable torque above 8K and a power band that pulled all way to 8600. Best of all, it got rid of the "I am below 70MPH, so I have to go straight to 3rd gear to get any hard acceleration out of it" and instead had 2-3 gears of overlap at any given speed. Due to the increased flexibility, it actually got quite a bit faster than stock.

I disagreed with you because of your completely false accusations that an R18 had a better power band. It may have FELT that way, but it was not factually true, and that was stock vs stock. Driven plenty of those too, and it is actually a fitting metaphor because the L15 reminds me a lot of an R18 with more power and torque. Not terribly lively, not terribly smooth, not terribly musical and not terribly enjoyable. But it gets great MPG for its era, which seems to also be a main criteria of the L15T. Why wouldn't it be? It is an economy car engine. Like I said, great in a CR-V, regular model Civic or even as a base engine in an Accord.

The other major and specific criticism I had of the L15 in the new Si was the fact that they geared it really low for an engine that doesn't have a high redline, so in many cases, you have to be in a taller gear due to the redline, which in turn negates much of the torque advantage it has. For almost a 50% increase in torque with a marginal increase in weight, it really isn't meaningfully faster. Sort of proves the point I made over the years about high strung NA engines with low gearing, versus engines that have more torque but require taller gearing to take advantage of it. This physics stuff works.

As for the shifter and interior, that is a straw man. Not only did I specifically say that "I liked everything about the new Si except the engine" but talking about the shifter and interior space has absolutely ZERO to do with anything I have said.

As for it being cut and dry, you can claim whatever you like, but the fact that Honda is running lease deals for $199 a month to $209 a month with down payments on par with your typical Civic LX lease deal, pretty much says all that needs to be said. At $199 a month, the Civic Si is a compelling consideration. But it is about $3-4K below MSRP at those levels. So essentially, Honda has had to resort to massive financial incentives to move metal, which is something that hasn't historically applied to the Si models.

P.S. some of the models of the GTI actually do have a mechanical LSD now, and it has been an option for the entire generation. I am also not a VW fanboy, but as a long time Honda enthusiast, and specifically an Si lover, Honda has done a good job of making me look elsewhere the last two years. Take it for what it is worth. Even at $199 a month, I am not really interested.

As for the Kia Optima, I couldn't care less that you chose it. Good for you. I have nothing against them.

That said, I absolutely love my Accord V6 coupe. It looks fantastic, is rare, fully loaded and is a Q-ship in innocuous clothing. I would buy it again in a heartbeat. Just wish it came with bigger brakes.

Last edited by owequitit; 06-25-2018 at 02:34 AM.
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Old 06-25-2018, 02:35 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGilmore View Post
Reading through this thread, and not one person mention the Volvo S40 T5R or S60 T5R. I am kind of saddened by this after all the engine in the Focus is a variant of said engines found in the aforementioned cars.

As for the new line of Honda's, I was over the Civic Type R after I seen reviews and honestly if I had a choice I'd be in the 2.0T as well. Even then dare I say it but Honda's line up is kind of boring now. Not many offerings for a standard transaxle and not near as many offerings as they used to have in the past (Looks at Honda Preludes). And it just may be the USDM market that seems to suck in this regard. This is my 2 cents. I think I'll go test drive a few and see what I like the most and I'll be sure to put more input in as needed.
I'm interested to see what you think.

From my perspective, the Type-R is a cool car, but it looks ridiculous. I get that it is "functional" and all that, but come on.

The Accord has me split. Love the 2.0T, love the look of the Sport and love the features and looks of the Touring. But the Sport requires you to leave features on the table in exchange for a 6MT (if you can even find one) and the Touring doesn't come in the color I like. Plus, open diff. The Accord could also be just a bit more buttoned down.

Speaking of Volvo, the new S60 R-Design is one of my favorite designs of all time. I have always been a bit of a Volvo fan, but their new design language is really appealing to me. Sort of reminds me of the 2nd gen Legend in terms of simplicity, balance and proportion.
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