CB7Tuner Forums

Go Back   CB7Tuner Forums > Beginner forum -- New members post here! > Beginner Technical/Performance

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 41 votes, 4.98 average. Display Modes
Old 08-06-2012, 03:53 PM   #21
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
172 with a skunk2 manifold 70mm fully tuned 345cc injectors
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 05:27 PM   #22
PirateMcFred
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denial
Posts: 116
PirateMcFred is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
What counts as success?
That's a good question.

When parts are readily available and the individual doing the assembly/tuning isn't an idiot:

No. 1 Cheap (it was for me and my nonVTEC parts)
No. 2 Makes more power assuming comparable mods to an F22A
No. 3 Still reliable (at least as reliable as any engine that's going to be revved like a modded Honda)
No. 4 Greater aftermarket support for H-series top-ends
No. 5 No worse (or better) fuel economy

At least that's been my experience. If that's not 'successful' then I'd like to hear someone else's definition.

My H23A1 DOHC nonVTEC head, F23 block, H22 pistons got me 165whp/169wtq on the stock cams and high mileage head. I later swapped to a reconditioned F22B DOHC head and installed Crower cams and made 200whp/183wtq after tuning. It lasted for 60,000 before I pulled it. I had less then $1k in the entire engine total. I don't think I've seen that performance per dollar from anyone's F22A SOHC yet.

-P
__________________
VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq
PirateMcFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 05:40 PM   #23
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,382
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
Your build did away with the chief issue that an H22A/H23A1 head swap has. You bored out an F23A block to 87mm to get rid of any ridge on the cylinder deck. While maybe I, personally, wouldn't like to tackle the task of modifying the head for mismatching oil drains the largest obstacle has been defeated.

And with your F22B DOHC head you've gone to a setup that somewhat mimics the channels on the F23A block in addition to provided some quench area above the piston for power.

In my opinion, neither one of those screams "cheap and poorly thought out". The fact that you managed to accomplish them cheaply is fantastic.
__________________
.
If you see any threads or posts of mine whose picture links are broken (there are a lot), please send me a link to the thread. I will gladly fix them. I don't see it as a fruitless burden. This site has helped give me quite a bit of my drive and passion for cars, and fixing my picture links is the least I can do to give back.
.
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 06:07 PM   #24
PirateMcFred
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denial
Posts: 116
PirateMcFred is cool... so far.
I was merely defining my 'success' criteria. I don't presume to be an "average" builder/tuner but no one gets any good at something without some practice and everyones got to start somewhere.

As for that .25mm lip you mentioned several times before, please, with your thumb and fore-finger and a camera, please show me what you think .25mm is (or supply another practical real-world example of what .25mm is) and tell me if you've ever heard the terms "boundary layer" in the context of combustion chambers and the gasses therein.

Afterward tell me what happens to that lip if you mill a head .010" or so.

I'm serious. I don't think people really know what some of these measurements really translate to, practically speaking. I don't mean to offend.

-P
__________________
VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq
PirateMcFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 08:06 PM   #25
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 8,467
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
.25mm? Isnt it a 1mm lip (0.025" or 1/40th inch)
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 10:31 PM   #26
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
Milling the head takes care of the lip
Milling the head raises your comp
The headswap makes better power than the original head
No rocket science
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 11:04 PM   #27
8ball
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uncle Sam
Posts: 864
8ball seems to have made some friends! 8ball seems to have made some friends!
Great read. I was wondering why no one has mentioned the hybrid that is basically a jdm F22B, but then again it seems like that's probably the easiest of all the accomplish. I know nothing.

*Side note* I still dont get why people say the SOHC head is a TON better than the DOHC head & even more crazy is when they mention it being better than the VTEC DOHC head.
8ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 11:05 PM   #28
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,382
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
You don't offend. In fact, this thread is going much better than expected. And I understand that, if milled the diameter of the conical combustion chamber will decrease. The .25mm dimension was not the focus of the argument so much as the exposed deck surface. Even still, it doesn't take much to form a hot spot.

And yes I am familiar with boundary layer in a fluid dynamics sense as it's a popular argument for leaving rough surfaces when porting heads. Do you mean to refer to it here in how it reacts with the surface of the combustion chamber or are you referring to how the to the small pockets of turbulence I illustrated in the picture?

And Glory, the .25mm is the difference is radius between an 86.5mm bore(F23A headgasket) and 87mm (bone stock H22A combustion chamber diameter).


Quote:
Originally Posted by 8ball View Post
Great read. I was wondering why no one has mentioned the hybrid that is basically a jdm F22B, but then again it seems like that's probably the easiest of all the accomplish. I know nothing.

*Side note* I still dont get why people say the SOHC head is a TON better than the DOHC head & even more crazy is when they mention it being better than the VTEC DOHC head.
Depending on what you're going for the SOHC F22A does have an almost ideal valve angle. The head is also of a good design with lots of potential if being massaged by someone with F22A experience. Don't discount the head just because it doesn't say "DOHC VTEC" on it. I won't say anything absolute and say that anything is better than the other, but it is a VERY capable head. I'm not a band-wagoner, but why do you think Bisi uses it on his build?
__________________
.
If you see any threads or posts of mine whose picture links are broken (there are a lot), please send me a link to the thread. I will gladly fix them. I don't see it as a fruitless burden. This site has helped give me quite a bit of my drive and passion for cars, and fixing my picture links is the least I can do to give back.
.

Last edited by Jarrett; 08-06-2012 at 11:08 PM.
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2012, 11:24 PM   #29
8ball
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Uncle Sam
Posts: 864
8ball seems to have made some friends! 8ball seems to have made some friends!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
I won't say anything absolute and say that anything is better than the other, but it is a VERY capable head. I'm not a band-wagoner, but why do you think Bisi uses it on his build?
Because Bisimoto is a Hipster; for the response bro appreciate it.
8ball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:14 AM   #30
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
The only other choice you have is sleeving

It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 11:14 AM   #31
PirateMcFred
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Denial
Posts: 116
PirateMcFred is cool... so far.
No one's given a real-world example of what .25mm is. It's less than .010" or ten one-thousandths of an inch. That's equivelent to the thickness of about 3 sheets of nice copy paper and smaller than the ball in a ball-point pen. That's thinner than the reported boundary layer of combustion gasses in a typical engine and therefore the lip could be considered virtually insignificant.

Just another perspective on your .25mm lip:



1% more pressure pushing down on sleeve for a split second's pretty insignificant in my book. I'm about done here since I'm not really trying to change opinions and it seems most people are reluctant to experiment and formulate their own opinions. Afterall, the definition of insanity's repeating the same behaviour over and over and expecting a different result and I've got other things I should do with my time.

It's been fun, my 2 are spent.

-P
__________________
VTEC G27? = ???whp ???wtq
VTEC G23 = 220whp 191wtq
nonVTEC G23 = 200whp 183wtq
K24 iVTEC hybrid = 260whp 210wtq
PirateMcFred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 11:19 AM   #32
HappyGilmore
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 1,496
HappyGilmore is cool... so far.
Send a message via AIM to HappyGilmore Send a message via MSN to HappyGilmore Send a message via Yahoo to HappyGilmore Send a message via Skype™ to HappyGilmore


Please tell me this thread was stickied. I get asked alot about frank swaps. Good read Jarret keep it up guys.
__________________
The CB7 Collector.
Team Kindred Impulse Member #3
92 LX Coupe F22A1
97 LX Wagon 5-Speed F22B2
92 EX Sedan F22A1
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Do you really need to make a thread asking if having your car like this /---\ will cause uneven tire wear? Try walking like that for a few weeks and see if your shoes wear funny! (hint: they will.)
HappyGilmore is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 12:52 PM   #33
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,382
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR CB7 View Post
There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
The only other choice you have is sleeving

It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
Forgive me if I'm misinformed, but who has an F22A/B block running an 87mm bore? The last I knew on the subject Wes was making a deck plate out of a scrap head but hasn't really had time to devote to it between work and his other projects. While it isn't the heart of this topic, if the F22A/B can be bored to 87mm safely that would be interesting to see. I probably personally wouldn't do it but, like you said, the K24 pistons do present an interesting alternative to forged aftermarket.

And I didn't use Bisi as an example because I feel that his results easily translate to the street or what normal people are capable of for that matter. Only that the head is not scrap metal and does have benefits in certain arenas. Your points on variable valve timing and how they are implemented on the H22A are mostly true, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateMcFred View Post
No one's given a real-world example of what .25mm is. It's less than .010" or ten one-thousandths of an inch. That's equivelent to the thickness of about 3 sheets of nice copy paper and smaller than the ball in a ball-point pen. That's thinner than the reported boundary layer of combustion gasses in a typical engine and therefore the lip could be considered virtually insignificant.

Just another perspective on your .25mm lip:



1% more pressure pushing down on sleeve for a split second's pretty insignificant in my book. I'm about done here since I'm not really trying to change opinions and it seems most people are reluctant to experiment and formulate their own opinions. Afterall, the definition of insanity's repeating the same behaviour over and over and expecting a different result and I've got other things I should do with my time.

It's been fun, my 2 are spent.

-P
Pirate, you're right. In my previous post I alluded to it being a weak argument but truthfully, in the grand scheme of things, it shouldn't have been given credit at all. In fact, adjacent cylinder head bolts being torqued 2-4 ft-lbs. differently than each other probably affects pressure to a greater magnitude than a .25mm lip. There are probably many other variables within otherwise identical engine builds that have more of an impact than the .25mm lip on the head gasket.

If you're done with this conversation then thanks for stopping in as your insight and experience is always appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyGilmore View Post


Please tell me this thread was stickied. I get asked alot about frank swaps. Good read Jarret keep it up guys.
If this thread was stickied then it would be me proclaiming that my opinion is fact, which it is not. It has so far served as a constructive discussion forum and that's likely the extent of its potential. The idiots whom this thread was created for (Pirate, PR_CB7, PreLittleLude if you're still around I'm not referring to people who have approached this intelligently) still will not heed any advice and continue to do what they want. Just enjoy the conversation as a respite to the talk of super low offset wheels.
__________________
.
If you see any threads or posts of mine whose picture links are broken (there are a lot), please send me a link to the thread. I will gladly fix them. I don't see it as a fruitless burden. This site has helped give me quite a bit of my drive and passion for cars, and fixing my picture links is the least I can do to give back.
.

Last edited by Jarrett; 08-07-2012 at 12:55 PM.
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 04:08 PM   #34
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 8,467
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
The prob isn't so much the idea of a hybrid as much as its the way people go about it

You have folks w/no money, no experience and no other means of getting around looking to build "G22s" because they are too cheap to buy H22s... not cause they are curious about the potential of a hybrid build, with the money, discipline and brains to even begin to do it right
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 08:11 PM   #35
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
The prob isn't so much the idea of a hybrid as much as its the way people go about it

You have folks w/no money, no experience and no other means of getting around looking to build "G22s" because they are too cheap to buy H22s... not cause they are curious about the potential of a hybrid build, with the money, discipline and brains to even begin to do it right
That's a whole different subject, idiots will always be

Jarret, Michael yost has a f23 block bored to 87 using K24 pistons and f23 head, and another one shawn Luna, built a f23 block K20type r piston h22 head
Both here in florida
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-07-2012, 09:02 PM   #36
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,382
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
Quote:
Originally Posted by PR CB7 View Post
There is a reason why variable valve timing was invented, unfortunately a non vvt head has none of this

On a non vvt head, you can't have a decent idle and conserve gas at the same time, it has a solid lobe, a lobe that will give you that "cammed" sound

Even though the f22a head has a bigger ports and valve angle is better than the H
The head lacks of another cam to easier control the opening and closing of valves and it lack of adjustable valve timing, 2 important factors in the racing world

Now everyone here uses bisi as an example, which is great but he transformed that motor into a race engine, you don't see him nowhere else but the track
In order to maximize the ouput of those ports. BIG cam is needed
When it comes to racing to get somethings you have to sacrifice others
Head than can change the the opening of a valve on the fly is something that will make power and retain some driveability

Granted compression will be the yielding factor in this game, but with a 85mm bore and iron sleeves that can be bored to 87mm, there are plenty of k series pistons and forged
h22pistons that can be used on this block, something the Frm sleeves don't let you do

Where this block shines is the extra 5mm of stroke on the crank and the use of iron sleeves
I'm not bashing on frm, but iron is so easy to work with, boring is simple no special stones are required and the fact that you start small and have 2mm of boring to play with if something were to happen, if you go over .50 on a frm sleeve you'll destroy it
To damage a sleeve .50 is not that hard to do, but is a nice peace of mind that it can be fixed
It would suck to have invested so much money on a block and scoring it later
The only other choice you have is sleeving

It's only a matter of time until other people figure this out, right now this combo has some bad rep, but not for long
Keep doing calculations and maybe you'll figure it out
I knew the F23A could be bored to 87mm, but this comment above made it seem like you were implying that the F22A/B could reach that as well.
__________________
.
If you see any threads or posts of mine whose picture links are broken (there are a lot), please send me a link to the thread. I will gladly fix them. I don't see it as a fruitless burden. This site has helped give me quite a bit of my drive and passion for cars, and fixing my picture links is the least I can do to give back.
.
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2012, 02:04 AM   #37
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
It can, take a caliper gauge to measure thickness of both walls and you shall see
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2012, 10:12 AM   #38
gloryaccordy
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The doomship!
Posts: 8,467
gloryaccordy seems to have made some friends!
But is anyone running a stock sleeve 87mm F22A in reality

Do the F22A/F23A have different coolant/oil passages around the cylinders... that alone could be the difference. They prob changed them for the F23A because they knew they would have less material to work with

What kind of sleeves does the K have, Ks have the same bore spacing as F/H but somehow run 87mm w/o FRM
__________________


Quote:
Originally Posted by lordoja View Post
im with you on that one bro! aint nothing beat free food and drinks any day of the week, even if its at a funeral
gloryaccordy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-08-2012, 03:49 PM   #39
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
But is anyone running a stock sleeve 87mm F22A in reality

Do the F22A/F23A have different coolant/oil passages around the cylinders... that alone could be the difference. They prob changed them for the F23A because they knew they would have less material to work with

What kind of sleeves does the K have, Ks have the same bore spacing as F/H but somehow run 87mm w/o FRM
F23 and f22 sleeve O.C. is the same, the 2.2 inner circumference is smaller because the boe is intended for a smaller piston, both bores are identical when bored to 87
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2012, 12:23 AM   #40
budget street
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Stuart Florida USA
Posts: 119
budget street is cool... so far.
first I would like to thank PirateMcFred and also guys like prelude little on ht

without there contribution we might not be having this discussion.

I have been around hondas long enough to remember when guys were saying its was impossible to run an H head on an F block.
now a new generation with the detonation shelf talk.

there is a need for this thread but all too often replys are more opinion than fact.

I have read all the hybrid / frankinstein engine builds threads too.

then I went in my shop put a bare stock bore f23a1 block on the engine stand.

set a stock h22 head on top.

stuck my hand down the cylinder wall looking for this shelf that is the source of detonation.

I am here to tell you it does not exist. it is just not there.

you guys are just repeating this stuff like its the truth when your not getting your hands dirty.


atleast do the math correctly.

h22 head combustion chamber 87mm
f23a1 block 86.5mm
= .5mm differance

ok did you guys forget that a cylinder wall is round
divide .5mm / 3.14 (pi)
answer .159xxx mm
__________________
Budget Street is offline working in the shop

drop the mouse and pick up a wrench

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Good for you. You don't even know how to spell VTEC.
budget street is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.