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Old 08-30-2012, 03:04 AM   #41
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Settle down with the math there before you hurt yourself. Your specs are wrong too. The F23A1 cylinder is 86mm. The gasket is 86.5mm. To measure the lip you're looking for a differentiation in radius which is the diameter (bore) divided by two.

The other point of your comment was that you shoved your hand in a hole and didn't feel anything which is apparently a more valuable measure than precision instruments.
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Old 11-22-2012, 07:44 PM   #42
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I've edited the original post of this thread quite heavily because some people think that I am against the idea of doing things in a way that goes against the Honda deity's desires. That's not true. I just like to have a little bit of sound thought behind why I do things the way I do.
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Old 11-23-2012, 01:32 AM   #43
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you should have made it a poll so we could vote sticky. getting tired of people asking the same chit every week
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Old 11-27-2012, 11:39 PM   #44
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you should have made it a poll so we could vote sticky. getting tired of people asking the same chit every week
Werd......
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Old 11-28-2012, 09:40 AM   #45
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Trust me... nobody reads sticky threads.
And this thread has already been added to the "read here first" sticky... which nobody reads, obviously.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:17 AM   #46
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Hey now.

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Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Trust me... nobody reads sticky threads.
And this thread has already been added to the "read here first" sticky... which nobody reads, obviously.
hey, hey. nubs like me do. im mor of a bookworm about this shit than a 'go out, spend fucktons of money and end up with another fuckton of problems' kinda guy.

I love my CB7, and she ain't pretty, but I plan on making her that way.
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:23 AM   #47
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An idea I was kicking around

Ok, so I thoroughly read this thread and still have a few questions... I'm am looking to build a Frankenstein F series for my CB7... After some extensive searching and my eyes almost going crossed from looking at my computer screen, I've put this combination together in my head and just wanted to get a few more tech junkies input on this... I know the ramifications of Frankenstein motors and whatever mumbo jumbo you wanna throw at me... This will be a purpose built race engine and I have no concern with the cost and no desire to argue Vtec vs. non Vtec... I know what we are capable of building and we have the knowledge and experience to get the job done, just like to hear others feedback on the situation... That being said, here's my fantasy brainchild;

I want to boost an F series, period!
The low compression and iron sleeves on the F22A6 I currently own is ideal for boosting with minimal concern for detonation

So here's where my 159 IQ gets me into trouble or makes for one hell of a setup

I want to bolt the F20B head to it using various parts from the F/H series parts I have access to...
I'm thinking:
F22A6 block, intake mani, existing 4-2-1 race headers
F20A/B head, pistons and rings
H23A Blue Top Vtec cams
I will be getting a rebuild kit to accommodate the build as well as adding heavy duty or oversized components where applicable
Then various F/H series parts to complete the motor build
I have an ecu programming and mapping program that will be used to adjust fuel mapping and rev range as well as some other tuning needs.

Really, what I'm looking for is two things... 1) has anybody seen a succeful build with same or similar components? 2) what do you guys think of this build?

And please for the love of God don't ask why we aren't using an H series motor, if you have to ask then you shouldn't be around race cars

Just so there are no ill advised post on what I have posted here the cars in my teams stable are:
91 CRX Si w/B20 swap
88 240sx w/R32 skyline complete swap
95 Del Sol currently prepping for a complete S2000 swap
If this build isn't feasable, I'm just gonna take the easy way out and drop a J32 motor in her and be done with it... We were just trying to build a beast off the F series motor... H22's are overrated and I'm wary of the block holding up to the stress of 9-12 lbs. of boost... I've seen what happens when H series motors start to blow up, it ain't pretty!!

Last edited by Gurbin5708; 07-15-2013 at 06:46 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:11 AM   #48
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It's abundantly clear that you have no idea what you are talking about. If you'll be so kind as to wait an hour or so for me to get to a computer where I can address each of your points it would be much appreciated.
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:55 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbin5708 View Post
Ok, so I thoroughly read this thread and still have a few questions... I'm am looking to build a Frankenstein F series for my CB7... After some extensive searching and my eyes almost going crossed from looking at my computer screen, I've put this combination together in my head and just wanted to get a few more tech junkies input on this... I know the ramifications of Frankenstein motors and whatever mumbo jumbo you wanna throw at me... This will be a purpose built race engine and I have no concern with the cost and no desire to argue Vtec vs. non Vtec... I know what we are capable of building and we have the knowledge and experience to get the job done, just like to hear others feedback on the situation... That being said, here's my fantasy brainchild;

I want to boost an F series, period!
The low compression and iron sleeves on the F22A6 I currently own is ideal for boosting with minimal concern for detonation

So here's where my 159 IQ gets me into trouble or makes for one hell of a setup

I want to bolt the F20B head to it using various parts from the F/H series parts I have access to...
I'm thinking:
F22A6 block, intake mani, existing 4-2-1 race headers
F20A/B head, pistons and rings
H23A Blue Top Vtec cams
I will be getting a rebuild kit to accommodate the build as well as adding heavy duty or oversized components where applicable
Then various F/H series parts to complete the motor build
I have an ecu programming and mapping program that will be used to adjust fuel mapping and rev range as well as some other tuning needs.
You can't use "race headers" for a turbocharged engine.
It also probably wouldn't be a good idea to rev out an F22 bottom end up to the speeds you need to take advantage of the F20B head. Plus the H23A cams are for an N/A motor; you would do better to get aftermarket turbo cams.

Plus why talk about the low compression of the F, and then swap in high compression pistons from an F20B

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbin5708 View Post
Really, what I'm looking for is two things... 1) has anybody seen a succeful build with same or similar components? 2) what do you guys think of this build?

And please for the love of God don't ask why we aren't using an H series motor, if you have to ask then you shouldn't be around race cars
Neither should someone who thinks they need a race header & 11:1 pistons for a turbo build

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbin5708 View Post
Just so there are no ill advised post on what I have posted here the cars in my teams stable are:
91 CRX Si w/B20 swap
88 240sx w/R32 skyline complete swap
95 Del Sol currently prepping for a complete S2000 swap
If this build isn't feasable, I'm just gonna take the easy way out and drop a J32 motor in her and be done with it... We were just trying to build a beast off the F series motor... H22's are overrated and I'm wary of the block holding up to the stress of 9-12 lbs. of boost... I've seen what happens when H series motors start to blow up, it ain't pretty!!
What kind of racing? Drag racing? Road racing? Street racing?

The F20B is basically an H22 with a smaller bore... if you really want to stay "true to the F" keep the SOHC F22A head on and build off that.

If it were up to me heres what I'd do

F22A head + block
Darton MID wet sleeves bored to 90mm + 90mm pistons
H22A 90.5mm OBD1 crank
H23A1 IM
Aftermarket turbo cam and valvesprings
GT28RS pushing no more than 10psi
3" exhaust

This would yield a nice square 2300cc of displacement, breathe nice, rev nice and rep the F.

That said Ive been here for a while and get the feeling you are kind of full of it. But thats just my opinion
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:51 AM   #50
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Never once did I strictly say I was taking the pistons from an F20B, the F20A with its 9.5:1 will suffice, plus with remapping the fuel ratio in the ecu you can achieve the lower compression that is desired to boost the car.
Next, the race headers are our starting point for fabrication of our own manifolds... I use the higher quality stainless flanges and some of the existing pipe work to fabricate one off custom manifolds, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that some people have the ability to manufacture their own equipment... I didn't install the headers on this car but I will most certainly use what I can to fab up what I need... How do you think this shit is made? The car fairy just drop parts off at your house? It don't work that way around here. If I wanted to drag race I would hop in my roommates 5.0 Mustang and have at it and street racing is for the kids... I speak of legal closed course road racing, the kind that requires us to install roll cages in our vehicles, at various tracks around my area with different configurations... The engine build I'm looking to do would have to flexible to suit the track needs... And as far as you thinking I'm full of it, I could care less what you think about me, honestly... I know what sits in my driveway and how to drive it!! And last I checked, you had a long list of what not to do that has been countlessly shot down by other members saying its possible if you just think it through and know your way around a machine shop... Stop buying your parts online and have some imagination and creativity and see what you can fab up! Otherwise your custom car isn't a custom at all!!
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:04 AM   #51
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Race headers are a poor starting point to fab from, start with F22A4 headers and fab from that, really all you need are the flanges off the header anyway if you are going to do one with better gas flow for a turbo build.

Also, I wouldn't go around shooting yourself in the foot by insulting Jarrett or gloryaccordy as they both know their stuff.

What are the restrictions of your class on the road course and who are you associated and licensed through?

Also why use an F22A6 block if you are going to use all F20 parts? Why use stock pistons on something that sounds like it is going to melt them? I would look into forged pistons if it were me.

Also why do you want to use DOHC cams from a VTEC motor on a non-VTEC build? Wouldn't it be better to just order regrinds with the needed lift and durations?

Last edited by wildBill83; 07-15-2013 at 11:06 AM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:37 PM   #52
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I mean no disrespect to anyone, I thought we were all here to help each other out... Fabricating from a stock manifold, sucks... Many of them are cast and trying to tie stainless steel into a cast inferior metal while welding is no walk in the park... Hence the reason we buy the headers and use the machined flanges. I can pick up a set of headers for less than $100 which is reasonable considering I already own a pipe bender and all the welding accessories I need... A CNC machine would be nice to have but it isn't very cost effective for us right now, so I'm stuck buying headers for the machine quality flange and the superior quality metals... That's not an uncommon practice among welders who don't have the means to machine their own flanges but can bend their own pipe... As far as it being a Vtec build or not that, is what I'm trying to figure out... Whether it would behoove me to make this a Vtec build or stay with the non Vtec... I'm also on the fence about whether to go DOHC or SOHC... I'm using the F22A6 as a starting point because I have three A6 blocks sitting in my shed, all of which have been striped naked, so why not start tinkering with different setups and combinations
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:23 PM   #53
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They have pre-made turbo manifolds and flanges that work great. Seems like you are reinventing the wheel for no reason.

Also why go through the trouble of OEM pistons when forged pistons will be stronger & lighter? Just a lot of things in your proposed build that don't make sense which is why I question your experience/seriousness.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:37 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbin5708 View Post
I mean no disrespect to anyone, I thought we were all here to help each other out... Fabricating from a stock manifold, sucks... Many of them are cast and trying to tie stainless steel into a cast inferior metal while welding is no walk in the park... Hence the reason we buy the headers and use the machined flanges. I can pick up a set of headers for less than $100 which is reasonable considering I already own a pipe bender and all the welding accessories I need... A CNC machine would be nice to have but it isn't very cost effective for us right now, so I'm stuck buying headers for the machine quality flange and the superior quality metals... That's not an uncommon practice among welders who don't have the means to machine their own flanges but can bend their own pipe... As far as it being a Vtec build or not that, is what I'm trying to figure out... Whether it would behoove me to make this a Vtec build or stay with the non Vtec... I'm also on the fence about whether to go DOHC or SOHC... I'm using the F22A6 as a starting point because I have three A6 blocks sitting in my shed, all of which have been striped naked, so why not start tinkering with different setups and combinations
F22A4 exhaust manifold is welded not casted... Try again... Research what someone tells you before you start spouting out it won't work first. I understand working with what you got, but in all reality if you can find an A4 manifold in a junk yard it will be the best fitting flanges and is already the materials you require. Those "eBay" headers I'm sure you are planning to use as a starting point have crap flanges and never seal correctly.

Also stainless steel on exhausts is a gimmick. Steel performs just as well.

If you are dead set on this idea, I suggest making a new thread rather than muddying up this one. It will be much easier for others to help you that way.

If you are dead set on turbo, and running low boost why not just use a DSM manifold that is pre-made for a turbo and bolts up with little modification?

Last edited by wildBill83; 07-15-2013 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:24 PM   #55
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I hear ya on the eBay headers, been there done that got my t-shirt... As far as the fabrication goes, I have access to stainless pipe in spades and the A4 exhaust, which I know is a tubular construction, sounds like a good alternative if I need something in a pinch... Stainless performs better in areas where there is a greater risk of corrosion, ie. living near the ocean... Why buy manifolds if you have the know how and trade skills to fab your own? Honestly, I hadn't even thought about forged pistons, I was rather sleepy when I wrote my first post up so brain function may not have been up to snuff... As far as reinventing the wheel, if you have the time, materials, and skills what is so wrong with making your own parts? I know it seems difficult to some people, but this is what we do on a daily basis... Fabrication is what I do for a living and it's much more satisfying to see something come together than to wait for a FedEx truck... Thanks for the info though, I have an idea as to what we will be starting on this weekend... I've only had the car for a few days, and I'm pretty sure she will be stripped naked in the next few days as my American Express racks up some mileage
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:45 PM   #56
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To inhibit rust and corrosion either powder coat, ceramic coat, or paint the headers. Also you can use the unwanted parts of the A4 mani as a template to fab your own.

Nothing wrong with making your own stuff if you have the time and equipment to do so.

You should research the Bisi headers and others like them to get a really good idea of what the current offerings are on turbo manifolds for our F series heads.

Personally I don't ever want a SS header from knock off eBay vendors because they are not truly corrosion resistant, most are made cheaply from 300 series and have very poor welds and warped flanges.
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Old 07-15-2013, 03:08 PM   #57
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Very true on the eBay headers... I only use 316 stainless since that is what my company has boat loads of!! I will definitely research the mani's... I just can't bring myself to paint such a pretty blue on the stainless once it's been heat treated
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Old 07-15-2013, 04:04 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gurbin5708 View Post
Ok, so I thoroughly read this thread and still have a few questions... I'm am looking to build a Frankenstein F series for my CB7... After some extensive searching and my eyes almost going crossed from looking at my computer screen, I've put this combination together in my head and just wanted to get a few more tech junkies input on this... I know the ramifications of Frankenstein motors and whatever mumbo jumbo you wanna throw at me... This will be a purpose built race engine and I have no concern with the cost and no desire to argue Vtec vs. non Vtec... I know what we are capable of building and we have the knowledge and experience to get the job done, just like to hear others feedback on the situation... That being said, here's my fantasy brainchild;

I want to boost an F series, period!
The low compression and iron sleeves on the F22A6 I currently own is ideal for boosting with minimal concern for detonation No it isn't. The pistons will crack ringlands very easily. It's repeated like a broken record because it's true. Great tuning will certainly help, but the F/H-series cast pistons are simply notorious for it. But, please, continue.

So here's where my 159 IQ gets me into trouble or makes for one hell of a setup

I want to bolt the F20B head to it using various parts from the F/H series parts I have access to...
I'm thinking:
F22A6 block, intake mani, existing 4-2-1 race headers Okay, assuming all this is the case, I have issues with some of the other things you list.
F20A/B head, pistons and rings You just left room for 5 possible head castings. The PT3, PT2, POA, POB and PCB. Which one is it? You originally say the F20B head so I'm assuming you mean the DOHC F20B VTEC head (PCB).
H23A Blue Top Vtec cams These cams are not the same thing as Type S cams, regardless of what people tell you. Only the '00-'01 H23A VTEC engines came with the PDE head and, sure, the cams have the same blue hue everyone associates with the Type S cams. But guess what, the hue doesn't determine the profile. In fact, my automatic F20B, which has the absolute worst of the F20B/H22A/H23A VTEC cams possible also has camshafts with a blue hue. So do a lot of H22A4 camshafts. If you're going off of the information in the H23A VTEC thread on Honda-Tech then I've got some ocean-front property in Arizona with your name all over it. Those people, ESP included, jump to conclusions based off of the tiniest inclination or suspicion from another poster. The H23A VTEC cams are actually the same as the USDM H22A1/H22A4 camshafts. They slot between the automatic F20B and the JDM H22A camshafts in terms of aggressiveness. But maybe you already knew that and wanted them anyway.
I will be getting a rebuild kit to accommodate the build as well as adding heavy duty or oversized components where applicable Pretty vague there, don't you think? And wouldn't a kit be a poor choice at this point as you can't really buy a Frankenstein kit?
Then various F/H series parts to complete the motor build Of course.
I have an ecu programming and mapping program that will be used to adjust fuel mapping and rev range as well as some other tuning needs. You sure sound like an expert already, but just in case you forgot, you're going to want to couple this mystery program with a chip-able and tuneable ECU. Then you might want to track someone down who knows what they're talking about and have them chip and tune it. Preferably with a dyno if you're boosting.

Really, what I'm looking for is two things... 1) has anybody seen a succeful build with same or similar components? 2) what do you guys think of this build? Sure, but there's a lot more work that has to go into them. Most of them are complete failures with abundant oil leaks between the head and block.

And please for the love of God don't ask why we aren't using an H series motor, if you have to ask then you shouldn't be around race cars That's a pretty sour attitude coming from someone who even failed at an opinionated point.

Just so there are no ill advised post on what I have posted here the cars in my teams stable are:
91 CRX Si w/B20 swap
88 240sx w/R32 skyline complete swap
95 Del Sol currently prepping for a complete S2000 swap
If this build isn't feasable, I'm just gonna take the easy way out and drop a J32 motor in her and be done with it... We were just trying to build a beast off the F series motor... H22's are overrated and I'm wary of the block holding up to the stress of 9-12 lbs. of boost... I've seen what happens when H series motors start to blow up, it ain't pretty!!
Your misinformation continues. There is nothing weak about the H22A block. Every single one of them, even the open-deck blocks, are stronger than any F-series block. The FRM cylinder liners were made to be stronger than the conventional iron liner while at the same time be lighter weight. The closed-deck H22A1 and H22A take the strength a step further. The issue is not with the block itself. It's the fact that most piston companies don't make forged pistons that are compatible with the FRM liners. So your pistons, as with the F22A6 block, continue to be your weak link in a boosted setup. That's the reason most people want to go with Frankenstein setups. They're too cheap to properly sleeve a block (or buy the H22A block in the first place, for that matter) or they want the longer stroke. If the latter, I covered the alternative in the first post.

Why don't you just buy an F20B DOHC VTEC and put low compression pistons in it? It has iron sleeves and it gets you the DOHC VTEC valve cover look you want. This way, you also wouldn't have to listen to those pesky members on the forum tell you how great a built F22A does in a boosted setup in its own right.


And let's please not make this thread about your fabrication skills or other things that aren't Frankenstein-related.
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Old 07-15-2013, 05:18 PM   #59
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I apologize for getting off topic... There is a reason for the vagueness of my original post, I was fishing for the ideal setup or variations that I may be able to build on the three existing blocks I have... I'm all about trial and error to find the right setup... I'm open minded to any combination that may work... I'm not dead set on one particular block/head combination... Nobody said anything about a Frankenstein kit, but there are plenty of companies that offer a build your own rebuild kit... So, in theory it is possible to create your own Frankenstein rebuild kit... I was also under the impression that mating the an F20 head to the F22 block could cut down on the possibility of oil leaks... What's with the sinicism, just cause people don't share your opinion doesn't make them wrong or you right for that matter... But thanks for the input, regardless of what you think someone told me or whatever
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Old 07-15-2013, 07:47 PM   #60
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Are you planning on boosting on OEM cast aluminum pistons? That will be the weakest part of your setup, before sleeves or anything else comes into play. If you're not using forged pistons for turbo, you are going to break a ringland, even at low boost.


And if you want to know why you haven't received the warmest reception, you might want to re-read your first post. You basically say "I already know what I'm doing, so don't tell me I'm wrong", then you ask for opinions and advice. You mention your IQ, and you list all of your past projects.
Meanwhile, you're spouting a bunch of misinformation, and suggesting a build that many a 19 year old on this site has dreamed about, halfassed, and eventually blown up.



If you want to ask for help, don't start telling people that you already know everything. Clearly, you still have a good deal to learn. Anyone with any real knowledge (like everyone who has responded thus far) will eventually get sick of correcting your "facts" and leave you to fend for yourself, with the help of nothing but other like-minded individuals. I've seen it done, on this forum, and many others. It never ends well.
However, we do our best to squash bad information as quickly as possible on this site, to keep it from spreading... because bad information is the herpes of the car forum world! If you're not careful, you might not know when you're getting it. Furthermore, you might not even know when you're spreading it.
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