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F22a block f22b vtec sohc head???

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    #16
    I dont understand why the f22b1 gets such a bad wrap on this site.

    Bench flow tests show they are similar in flow, until you start porting and polishing heads. The stock A series head flows around 280 cfm and the b1 is in the ballpark of 235-245 depending on who's doing the testing(read several bench flow results, can be found via google)

    http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...ad.php?t=14075

    Heres one on the b2 head, which has similar ports, smaller intake valve and no variable cam.

    The port design is superior on the f22a for porting options, no doubt about it. But the B1 has a variable cam profile, which to me puts more on the table in terms of debate. I dont understand why anyone thinks its a waste either. The cam profile when engaged in vtec is one that wouldn't be a nice ride for a daily. SOHC non vtec with same profile as the vtec would be a rougher ride. Plus, the smaller ports equate to faster response down low. Granted that also limits the higher RPM's, but what are you using the car for yanno?


    I think the variable cam profile that comes with the vtec makes for cam upgrades from bisi very attractive. The two stage vtec engagement, even though its only a SOHC, creates a situation for a very modifiable cam that could be designed specifcally for what your doing. I think the tune/cam could move vtec around to be more performance related, and actually I plan on building a turbo b1 next. Im intrigued by Bisi's cam design ability.

    I realize the a-series head is better for overall performance/racing, but the b1 has a nice design as well.

    The smaller ports equate to 35-45 cfm difference in head flow(per flow bench results, oem vs oem) but generate more torque and throttle response. At first glance the ports seem way bigger, but the b1 ports are taller. The a series does flow better, no two questions about that. But, that doesnt mean the b1 head is shit either. Not in my opinion. Theres quite a few turbo b1's making nice power, and the vtec makes a ton of difference on the dyno when modified engagement and cam profiles are taken in to account.


    The variable cam, even though its intake only, is HUGE in terms of boost applications. Just like mitsu went to smaller ports on the 1995-1999 dsm's, the idea here is smaller ports produce more pressure faster. More pressure=more throttle response. How do you suppose the 2g dsm produces more power on a smaller turbo, with smaller ports then the 1g?

    Pressure

    remember though, pressure = torque and flow = HP.

    Torque = work, HP = over time

    "work done over time" is the saying.

    So, if your building a DD car, all out giant ports isnt really what it takes to make a zippy car at 2000-4000 rpm's. Adversly, if you plan to rev to 9,000 RPM's your going to need bigger ports to allow.

    For an all out racecar sure, the bigger the better for the most part. Daily driven cars though- well thats another story all together.


    its just like the arguement of gutting dual runners vs the gained torque on the low end. Its an opinion based arguement, based on what you plan to do with the car.




    And please, quite calling anything G22. Honda never made a "G series" anything..
    Last edited by toycar; 08-16-2011, 11:21 AM.
    Originally posted by wed3k
    im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

    Comment


      #17
      The VTEC system on the F22B1 is much different than the VTEC system found on the H22A or DOHC B series engines. It offers a different cam profile for the intake valves only. In stock form, that's fine. In modified form, it will flow in more than it flows out. My biggest issue with the F22B1 isn't when it's in stock form, compared to a stock F22A. My issue is when both are modified. The F22A is a much better choice for modification.

      The port design in the F22B1 is cramped, thanks to the VTEC system's implementation. The valve angle is also inferior to the F22A.


      I'm not saying that the F22B1 head doesn't have potential. ANY engine has potential with enough money put into it. It's just senseless to rip out a perfectly good F22A (engine or head) to install an F22B1 (engine or head.)


      The information that I'm repeating comes from Bisimoto, who has discussed it at length on this site and others (I'm not claiming to be an expert... just claiming to have read the work of an expert that I trust!)




      And THANK YOU for the support on the "G22" crap!
      Although Honda does indeed have a G series (I wouldn't mind the "G22" garbage if there were no such thing.) The G series is what comes in the Acura Vigor and 2.5TL here in the US. It's a 5 cylinder engine (G25. There was a G20 in other countries). Longitudinally mounted, though still FWD... I don't get it.






      Comment


        #18
        this thread has left "beginner technical/performance" imo. lol

        ^ beat me to it, but FYI

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_G_engine

        which is actually another good reason not to call that hybrid a "g series". It's a clever way to define it though, even if it's not precise.

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by deevergote View Post
          The VTEC system on the F22B1 is much different than the VTEC system found on the H22A or DOHC B series engines. It offers a different cam profile for the intake valves only. In stock form, that's fine. In modified form, it will flow in more than it flows out. My biggest issue with the F22B1 isn't when it's in stock form, compared to a stock F22A. My issue is when both are modified. The F22A is a much better choice for modification.

          The port design in the F22B1 is cramped, thanks to the VTEC system's implementation. The valve angle is also inferior to the F22A.


          I'm not saying that the F22B1 head doesn't have potential. ANY engine has potential with enough money put into it. It's just senseless to rip out a perfectly good F22A (engine or head) to install an F22B1 (engine or head.)


          The information that I'm repeating comes from Bisimoto, who has discussed it at length on this site and others (I'm not claiming to be an expert... just claiming to have read the work of an expert that I trust!)
          I agree that the modified potential of the A-series head is waaay better. Bisi, also sent me an email like 2,000 words long explaining the pro's/cons, and in the end I was convinced for racing the A-series head is better, I just don't understand the bad wrap the b1 gets for a turbo daily.

          I think the potential is there.
          Originally posted by wed3k
          im a douchebag to people and i don't even own a lambo. whats your point? we, douchbags, come in all sorts of shapes and colours.

          Comment


            #20
            It's there... just not a worthwhile swap when a perfectly good F22A is present. The amount of money spent on getting an F22B1 working well would cover at least half of a decent budget turbo setup. And a headswap introduces a whole host of potential problems... though the F22A and F22B blocks are very similar, so fitment isn't really an issue. The problems come from an amateur piecing together a hybrid engine, and then throwing a turbo at it.

            Also, the DSM turbo manifold that is so popular among F22A users isn't an option with the F22B1/2, due to the port design 0-00-0.

            Honestly, every engine we can easily put in our cars can be boosted to make more than enough power for a street-driven car in stock form (until the ringlands break, or some catastrophic event occurs due to poor tuning or abuse.) 250-300whp is PLENTY of power for a daily-driven FWD car, especially one with an open differential, and every one of the popular engines can do that.






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              #21
              mind forwarding or posting that email?

              Having the VTEC work on soley the intake side isn't a terrible thing. The cooler intake air will reach a choked flow condition much sooner than the hot exhaust. I don't remember the equation but I remember the concept from IC engines class. That's the reason behind intake valves being larger than exhaust valves.

              Anyway, deevergote makes a very valid point:

              Originally posted by deevergote View Post
              Honestly, every engine we can easily put in our cars can be boosted to make more than enough power for a street-driven car in stock form (until the ringlands break, or some catastrophic event occurs due to poor tuning or abuse.) 250-300whp is PLENTY of power for a daily-driven FWD car, especially one with an open differential, and every one of the popular engines can do that.

              Comment


                #22
                It's true that hot air has more energy, so it will be flowing from the exhaust ports more quickly than it's flowing in. The increased intake flow probably makes for a well-mixed air/fuel mixture. I'm sure that's what Honda had in mind when they designed the engine. However, Honda's intentions are for stock operation. Modification changes everything.






                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by deevergote View Post
                  Modification changes everything.

                  So true. That's why it's good to have a plan for what you want out of your engine before you go throwing parts at it because so and so did it on theirs and it it gave them xxx whp.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Yeah, the WORST thing to do when modifying an engine is to follow someone else's lead blindly. If you don't understand what you're doing, and why, then you shouldn't be doing it.

                    The same goes for following the advice of anyone in the internet.
                    If toycar decided to build an F22B1 based on his argument, I wouldn't think any less of him... because he's done research, and he understands what he's doing... better than I do. Same with any *shudder* "G22* build. People like PR CB7 can build those engines because they have the knowledge and experience to do so... and they have some understanding of whatever benefits the hybrid will provide (I have yet to understand it myself... I see no benefit whatsoever.)
                    If you have enough knowledge to argue with me (intelligently) when I say something is a bad idea, you're on the right track. My word isn't gospel. However, those that know too little to successfully build a hybrid engine will probably assume that I'm right, and their lack of knowledge means they can't possibly argue. Those people would only end up getting themselves in a mess with the swap. THAT is why I tell every noob that comes along asking "can I do this?" regarding headswaps that it's a terrible idea.


                    The bottom line is... know what you're doing. Inside and out. Research the crap out of something before you buy a single part, or touch a single tool. You will still have PLENTY to learn as the project progresses... but equip yourself with as much knowledge prior to beginning a project. You will save lots of time, money, and frustration... and have a much better end result to show for it.

                    Keep in mind... research and collecting knowledge doesn't mean all you have to do is post a question on a forum and expect people to deposit knowledge in your head. Read websites, buy books, compare part descriptions and understand what the differences mean.






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