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Old 10-14-2018, 06:38 AM   #1
af_1132
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Lightbulb Building the F22 right this time, from the block up!

Ok ladies and gents,

The motor is out of the car and almost completely apart now. The cause of failure is most certainly a rod bearing for #2. All the shavings are there in the pan and in the filter for the pump (could be the whole bearing) and piston #2 could be pushed down slightly with finger after the head was removed. Evidence of scratching on the piston edge, and 4 peculiar gaps are also present between piston and wall for #2. Since this was a Laguna Seca track day failure (second time out), and the oil low light came on 'round turn 2 often, I am sure oil starvation played a role (no windage tray was installed).

My first F22 build was strage and showed my ignorance well:
- stock block (boo)
- bisi lvl 2 cam with his crazy stiff springs
- no porting, new stock valves and guides
- H23 IM and TB with IAB plate (no IAB's) to make runners longer, no gutting done at all
- AEM rail and pressure regulator with RDX injectors (smart part there)
- DC sports 4-2-1 with 2.25" basic exhaust design
- Hondata s300 tune by Blacktrax (other smart part)
*First and only dyno: 130hp @5500 and 135ft-lb torque

This time, I want to do things right from the block up, and build my F22Ax around 200hp for a 7k rpm redline in a reliable fashion.

--Block--

I have done some research and will be starting with building the block first. I used the zealautowerks compression calculator, and was able to narrow down my block combos to 4. I am not a stroker guy, since this is a track only car now, and I like the idea of using as many components as Honda originally designed to go in this block, with the exception of the pistons. Edit: I will also be adding the windage tray and deleting balance shafts. Here are my ideas (note: none of them require any milling of head or deck):

#1 K20a2 pistons, all else F22 (this is the cheap option that will boost compression significantly):
Bore: 86mm
Stroke: 95mm
Dome: 4.25cc
Compression Height: 30mm
OEM 3 layer gasket (will have to be modified at cylinder walls?)
Piston-Deck height: 0.020in
COMPRESSION: 11.51:1
CONs: expexted side loading for the K20s is opposite of the F22 pistons, and so these will have to be installed backwards and then the new intake side will have to be modified to allow intake valve clearance.(source). Also, the piston skirts are much shorter on the K20a2s than the F22s, so their ability to distribute side loading is diminished anyway. Furthermore, the cylinders for the writpins will have to be bored out to fit the F22 wristpins, OR the F22 rods will have to be modified to fit the K20 wristpins.

#2 Arias Mid compression F22 pistons (the most mild compression boost option, no wrist pin modification needed, second most expensive parts order).
Bore: 86mm
Stroke: 95mm
Dome: -2.9cc (so its a slight dish)
Compression Height: 30.73mm
OEM 3 layer gasket (will have to be modified at cylinder walls?)
Piston-Deck Height: -0.009in
COMPRESSION; 10.96:1
CONS: The Piston-Deck height is negative by 9 thousandths, so I will have to deterine if the edge of the piston protrudes from the deck by that much, and if it results in a collision with the head. The Ebay add also claims only 10.5:1 for this setup, which is quite different than the calculator gives.

#3 Arias High compression F22 pistons (the most extreme compression boost option, no wrist pin modification needed, by far most most expensive parts order).
Bore: 86mm
Storke: 95mm
Dome: 5cc
Compression Height: 30.73mm
OEM 3 layer gasket (will have to be modified at cylinder walls?)
Piston-Deck Height; -0.009in
COMPRESSION: 12.62:1
CONS: The Piston-Deck height is negative by 9 thousandths, so I will have to deterine if the edge of the piston protrudes from the deck by that much, and if it results in a collision with the head. The Ebay add also claims only 12.0:1 for this setup, which is quite different than the calculator gives. MOST IMPORTANTLY, this will cause massive engine knock that I don't believe I will be able to remedy without 100 octane race gas, water/methanol injecton, or tuning black magic (djcaz_aom, please chime in here, you say this is working for you, so what are the main ideas behind your working tune?).

#4 K20a2 pistons with F20B rods and F20B crank (this option will square up the bore/stroke significantly and produce a safe compression increase, if Honda went for a perfect square in the K20 block, then Ghost is right that a square engine is a happy engine!).
Bore: 86mm
Stroke: 88mm
Dome: 4.5cc
Compression Height: 30.00mm
OEM 3 layer gasket (will have to be modified at clyinder walls?)
Piston-Deck Height: 0.020in
COMPRESSION: 10.74:1
CONS: The significantly reduced stroke may really sap torque from the curve to a point where I notice and regret the choice, and this will hurt more if the F20B parts were hard to source in the first place. Also, I am not positive that this crank will work in the F22 block, or if the F20B wristpin and K20a2 wristpins are comparable.

--Head--

After I make my final decision with the block, it's time to move on to the head. With my dismal dyno chart back in 2015, it is certainly possible that I got screwed with the Bisi lvl2 just like CB7Denmark, although I will have to do the measurements just like wagon_r did years ago to confirm. I will be contacting Delta and Web to see what they offer at this point (no Gude for me, they don't represent themselves very well). Here is my head plan:

Cam: Delta 282 (if they still do it, I sure hope so), Delta 272, or Webcams Stage 2
Springs: I'll keep the Bisi springs, since the build is 7k rpms
Retainers and Keepers: new OEM
Valves: PEP 0.5mm oversized stainless steel valves (open up the seats and throats to get the most out of these)
Guides: I'll check my 2015 guides, and if I need new ones, Ill PM Wed3k for the bronze ones!
Porting: Definitely will have the P&P of the exhaust side done, and by a shop that utilizes a flow bench.

--IM--

I see two options at this point, and both will require more hood modifications to get the proper amount of air to the throttle bodies.

#1 The twin vertical TB setup put together by djcaz_aom for his CB9 (I think his PM box is full). I'll need some H23 runners, and all that he assembled from thereon upwards (plate, stack, spacer, and twin 70mm TBs). I will have to figure out what to do regarding the IACV, but the H23 runners will allow provision for the remaining collant lines.

#2 OBX H23 ITBs These just look fantastic, but I have a decent amount of questions about this route, including fuel rail options, injector fitmnet, coolant routing, what to do with the IACV/EGR, and if intake port matching is needed. I clearly have to do more research here.

--Header + Exhaust--

Header: I'm really not sure what to do here, besides have one custom made that balances my torque needs with my high HP needs up top and the proper diameter collector. The other more basic options could include a High End H22 header with the F22 flange welded on, or the PLM Tri-Y V2 header with the F22 flange welded on. I would lean towards the latter because the High End primaries are SOOOOO long, and that may be great for low-mid torque, but not great for high end HP.

Exhaust: With the higher compression and better head flow, I would not want a 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust to hinder. K-teller has both 3" diameter aluminized and stainless exhaust piping kits for the CB7. I would pair this with a Vibrant ultra quiet resonator and muffler with 3" inlets. The last bit is to figure out how I can get my hands on the seeminly discontinued Vibrant oil breather which routes the valve cover breather outlet directly to the exhaust.




Woah, that has to be one of the longest posts on here, geez! I appreciate you taking the time to read through all of that, and I appreciate the help of everyone on this forum that has allowed me the knowledge needed to even formulate these plans (you know who you are). What I am looking for now is advice and dialogue about any and all portions of these plans. Which options would you go with, and why? Did any part of these plans catch your eye as misinformed and needing a tweak/change? Any and all input helps. As I said, I want to build the whole F22 right this time, and I couldn't do it without your guidance. Thank you all in advance!
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The quest for 9s ceased, now the goal is a circuit track monster!

Last edited by af_1132; 10-14-2018 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 10-14-2018, 03:08 PM   #2
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So is money a problem here? Thereís one more option that will get you what you want fairly simple and way cheaper. You will end up with both power and tq as well as a 7k rev easy. You may actually get more out of it due to more money for balancing and what not to help. Anyway. F23a 1/4 bottom end. You can find these at the junk yard for about 200$ or so. Swap the stock pistons out for eaither k20a2 or a3 (depending on what you really want for compression) as far I had to do was just doing the pistons 180 degrees to except the valve relieves used stock rods and crank. You on other hand can do same setup but since you are gonna throw more money at it you can have the setup blueprinted as well as drill and tap the block for some h22 oil squirters to help with lubrication and cooling. With the 2.3 block you get your tq down low and get your easy 7k rev range depending on top end of course. With your setup now with just the k20 f23 setup you will definitely hit 200whp. Oh I would also add a slosh baffle setup to the pan just cause itís a track car and is gonna roll that oil with or with out a stock windage tray.
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Old 10-14-2018, 08:43 PM   #3
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Thank you for your input!

So, if I understand your correctly, you are suggesting an F23 block, F23 crank, F23 rods, and K20a2 or 3 pistons.
86:00mm bore
97.00mm stroke.

With the K20a2 pistons (4.25cc dome), the compression is 12.36:1 with a Piston-Deck height of 0.000in with the F23 blockage.
With the K20a3 pistons (-2.50cc dome), the compression is 11.0:1 with a Piston-Deck height of 0.000in with the F23 blockage.

The pros of this setup for me start with the perfect Piston-Deck level at TDC. The cons include the extra stroke, which is something I don't really need to pursue at a relatively high speed track like Laguna Seca. Another con is the fact that I would only feel safe with a junkyard block if I tore it down and replaced the bearings, seals, etc. so I'm not sure how much money I would save in the end.

As far as the squirters go, aren't those in the H22 rods, not the block itself? If so, I'm sure I could have them drilled in the F22 rods, anyone correct me if I am wrong.

Concerning the slosh baffle setup, can you/anyone give me more information as to how that is done? I only knew of an OBX aluminum baffled pan for the F series, and aluminum pans make me nervous with the exhaust wrapping around multiple faces of the pan.

Also, to answer your first question, I plan to spend a couple thousand before this is all said and done, and save money where I can with sweat equity at home. I am on the hunt for a shop that ports using a flow bench, and the block assembly could certainly be part of the hire.

Thank you gain for the input, I really appreciate it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that any OEM bolts I can replace with ARP down below will be replaced also.
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Old 10-14-2018, 11:03 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by af_1132 View Post
Thank you for your input!

So, if I understand your correctly, you are suggesting an F23 block, F23 crank, F23 rods, and K20a2 or 3 pistons.
86:00mm bore
97.00mm stroke.

With the K20a2 pistons (4.25cc dome), the compression is 12.36:1 with a Piston-Deck height of 0.000in with the F23 blockage.
With the K20a3 pistons (-2.50cc dome), the compression is 11.0:1 with a Piston-Deck height of 0.000in with the F23 blockage.

The pros of this setup for me start with the perfect Piston-Deck level at TDC. The cons include the extra stroke, which is something I don't really need to pursue at a relatively high speed track like Laguna Seca. Another con is the fact that I would only feel safe with a junkyard block if I tore it down and replaced the bearings, seals, etc. so I'm not sure how much money I would save in the end.

As far as the squirters go, aren't those in the H22 rods, not the block itself? If so, I'm sure I could have them drilled in the F22 rods, anyone correct me if I am wrong.

Concerning the slosh baffle setup, can you/anyone give me more information as to how that is done? I only knew of an OBX aluminum baffled pan for the F series, and aluminum pans make me nervous with the exhaust wrapping around multiple faces of the pan.

Also, to answer your first question, I plan to spend a couple thousand before this is all said and done, and save money where I can with sweat equity at home. I am on the hunt for a shop that ports using a flow bench, and the block assembly could certainly be part of the hire.

Thank you gain for the input, I really appreciate it.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that any OEM bolts I can replace with ARP down below will be replaced also.


Extra stroke is a very good thing thereís no con to it bexpecally at only a 7k rev limit as for junk yard block I ment that as you Iím sure you planned on changing bearings and all that anyway so that was gonna be a wash for costs. The saving comes from you not having to machine the block at all to except the 86mm k20 pistons as the f23 comes 86mm already so a slight hone will do the job and you can do that yourself. The oil squirters are actually a setup that sprays oil up into the bottoms of your pistons and rods. They are not incorporated into the rods.
As for oil pans with baffles. You have 2 options. 1st is your cheapest way out which would be to make your own using a stock oil pan and welder with some custom steel baffles. 2nd would be to call a company that produces pans like Moroso or canton racing and have them make you one. Hint you would not be the first to do so and Iím sure they saved there blue print and are probably call to order type deals. A flow bench tested head is not really gonna do you any good unless you are doing serious port work. If anything a simple port and polish with bigger valves and cam with a valve angle job with be just fine honestly. The only thing I think you will have any problem with may be valve reliefs on the pistons them self. I would clay the setup as well as some maths to determan if you need to cut out a bigger relief.
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Old 10-15-2018, 10:49 AM   #5
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Of all the options you listed, I would go with option #2. The stroke of the F22A is fine at those rev ranges, assuming all surfaces and clearances are within spec with new OEM bearings installed and rod bolts at the proper torque. ARP rod bolts would be good insurance. The issue a factory F22A has with revving that high has most to do with the valvetrain and gearing. You're addressing the valvetrain, and I thought I saw somewhere that you had plans for the transmission as well. If not, make them.

Other responses to your notes:

Your plans for the head are solid. Save your money on the retainers and locks, though.

The shop I would suggest you look into for your intake manifold is also one where I feel you could potentially use for a camshaft and head porting, as well. https://badguysworldwide.bigcartel.com
He posts on Instagram pretty often with some of his work. Fairly affordable, and quality work. He has a lot of experience in single cams as well as non-VTEC F/H setups. Particular to the IM, I would say to see if your budget could fit the Stage X ported intake. I'm assuming it can if ITBs were on the table. Who knows, an intake, camshaft, head porting and oil pump package could net you a bulk savings, if negotiated. Bad Guys can also weld on a new flange to support up to a 74mm throttle body, if you think you could use it.

I actually like the PLM header a little better, but just because it keeps piping more compact and already includes a flex section. Both will require notching your OEM subframe or running an aftermarket traction bar.

Responses outside of your notes:

As mentioned above when suggesting Bad Guys Worldwide, this build really could use a ported oil pump. Along those lines, it might even be worth considering eliminating the balance shafts the correct way in an effort to greatly increase pressure.

You'd also want a lightweight flywheel. If this is a track only car that will spend all of its time trying to pin the needle at 7000rpm, then an 8lb Fidanza aluminum flywheel is right up your alley. If it will still see some street use, or be driven to the track, the lightest I would go would be the The Competition or ACT 12lb chromoly steel unit. That will maintain some of the rotational inertia needed for comfortable driving while still dropping a TON from stock.


Before I did anything else, I would call up Bad Guys. He's down in Anaheim, but he could be relied on for many aspects of this build, if you wanted.

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Old 10-15-2018, 03:25 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 92smokeaccord View Post
The saving comes from you not having to machine the block at all to except the 86mm k20 pistons as the f23 comes 86mm already so a slight hone will do the job and you can do that yourself. The oil squirters are actually a setup that sprays oil up into the bottoms of your pistons and rods. They are not incorporated into the rods.
As for oil pans with baffles. You have 2 options. 1st is your cheapest way out which would be to make your own using a stock oil pan and welder with some custom steel baffles. 2nd would be to call a company that produces pans like Moroso or canton racing and have them make you one. Hint you would not be the first to do so and Iím sure they saved there blue print and are probably call to order type deals.
It would be nice to not have to pay for the 1mm overbore of the block. Also, I just found that F22 rods have the squirters, NOT the H22 rods. The H has the squirters in the block, so you were right. Ghost was actually doing research in 2016 about how to drill those into an F22 block, but I'm not sure he figured it out yet. If I do an oil pump porting service with Bad Guys, like Jarrett suggested, then I should be fine if I figure out the baffling on the pan. I looked at the offerings by Canton and Moroso, and like what I see. This is what Moroso offers right now that might just work for an F series. I have to check.
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The quest for 9s ceased, now the goal is a circuit track monster!
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Old 10-15-2018, 04:11 PM   #7
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Heck yeah Jarrett, Bad Guys! I just went through their whole site, and they do great work! I could source another H23 intake, send them that and my head, and get the following work done.

- Stage X CNC lower IM port job: this is so cool!
- Ported Oil Pump Service: I'm guessing that they provide the core pump for this, and I just need to double check that the F22 and F23 pumps are interchangeable.
- They have three stages of cylinder head work, but I would need a custom job done that leaves the intake ports alone (want atomization), does a valve job for the PEP 0.5mm oversized valves that I want, and does extensive port work on the exhaust side, and assembles the whole thing. It would be nice to call and hear more about their thermal coating and cylinder head surfacing procedures.
- Rocket Motorsports M21x cam: I will have to compare specs to the other cams I mentioned in my first post, but the plus with this one is that they can install on the head in house as part of my entire job. The increases in lift and duration are all between 12% and 20%!

As far as the other car components you mentioned, I already have a Synchrotech Prelude transmission with carbon synchros, an Accord 5th, M-Factory LSD, and a 4.26 final drive, built to my specs. I also have the ESP traction Bar, so the PLM header will fit nicely. I just wish it had a 3" collector, not a 2.5". I also have the ACT flywheel you mentined, and I would want to use that since I am driving to and from the tracks.

Good stuff guys! Now, I am going to also call Blacktrax and see what their price is for assembling an F series block.
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:26 AM   #8
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I haven't been able to locate the Vibrant vacuum scavenging unit either. It seems like VMS makes a similar part that would work. It doesn't seem to include the bung/threaded angled tip that needs to get welded to the exhaust system, but that can still be found from Vibrant. I haven't ordered this yet, so it could be subpar quality.

https://www.vmsracing.com/products/b...16-b18-h22-h23
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Old 10-16-2018, 02:22 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SSMAccord View Post
I haven't been able to locate the Vibrant vacuum scavenging unit either. It seems like VMS makes a similar part that would work. It doesn't seem to include the bung/threaded angled tip that needs to get welded to the exhaust system, but that can still be found from Vibrant. I haven't ordered this yet, so it could be subpar quality.

https://www.vmsracing.com/products/b...16-b18-h22-h23
Hey, that's kinda nice! I would just plug the original oil breather hole in that case. I also lost my oil cap on the way back from the fatal track day, so I need one anyway.
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Old 10-16-2018, 01:25 PM   #10
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What about your harmonic dampener? ATI or Fluidampr are your only choices there. I would suggest one for crank and bearing protection.

Oh and a small accusump for those long sweepers. Again, extra insurance.
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Old 10-17-2018, 02:47 AM   #11
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What about your harmonic dampener? ATI or Fluidampr are your only choices there. I would suggest one for crank and bearing protection.

Oh and a small accusump for those long sweepers. Again, extra insurance.
Yes, when deleting power steering, I will be going with an ATI super damper for sure. That is part of the plan.

Tell me more about the accusump. I assume you are talking about an electric oil pump in the tank that runs when the alternator is spinning, but that is the extent of my understanding.
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Old 10-17-2018, 08:37 AM   #12
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An Accusump, more correctly an oil accumulator, is a passive device. No electronics needed for the magic to happen. It works based off of pressure. It's very simple actually.

The two largest benefits:

A) If the pressure in the oil gallery is lower than what is stored is in the accumulator, the accumulator helps to fill in for the temporary loss in pressure and then "refills" when conditions return to normal.

B) Helps prevent dry starts by pre-lubing the engine and getting the pressure up before cranking.
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Old 10-18-2018, 04:18 AM   #13
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Ah, I see. Moroso sells both valved 1.5 qt. capacity accumulators:



And they sell non-valved gravity fed accumulators:



If I were to go the valved, more heavy duty route, I would NOT deal with the manual valve, which I would have to open each time I start the car. I would get one of the solenoid valves and wire the switch into the dash:



Then I could just switch her open before startup. Apparently, the manual ball valves close themselves. I'm sure I would have to close the electric one manually (?).
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