Stalling, Cutting out, crazy tach and smell of fuel

[Jeepzor]

UPDATE: Believe problem to be fixed, loose ground near T-stat housing

So I've got a 93 EX 5spd 293k F22A6. About 2 months ago it started cutting out when driving if you didn't let it warm up, and only for about 10-15 minutes then it would clear right up. For the next month or so I would just let it warm up before I left and then it would be fine. When it cut out I could hear the main relay clicking, the CEL and Batt light would all come on. It would just cut out for a second and pick right back up, and not just like a single cylinder cut out, this was a very violent full engine cut out.

Fast forward about a month. Driving home one night it wouldn't stop cutting out and basically got to the point that I couldn't accelerate or keep speed. I could push in the clutch and the RPM would increase and slowly start to fall. It also smelled of raw fuel (seems like a spark issue, not fuel). The tach was jumping around +/- 5k RPM.

Battery checks out fine, Alternator checks out fine.

Symptoms are Cutting out but not dying completely (only once). Main Relay making a lot of noise, check engine light and battery light both come on, and tach jumping. It will idle just fine touch the gas and get the RPMS around 2k-2.5k and it starts going crazy.

Trying to figure this out without throwing a bunch of parts at it or taking it to a shop, its just a commuter and I didn't pay very much for it. Could it be the dizzy/Ignition module, Main Relay?

UPDATE: Believe problem to be fixed, loose ground near T-stat housing

[af_1132]

It could definitely be the main relay, or an ECU problem, or even your distributor. How long has it been since you replaced the cap and rotor, the spark plugs, the spark plug wires? I wonder if main relay might have contact issues with it's connector, or the common problem where the solder begins to crack at one or both of the infamous spots on the main relay board.

If I were you, I would pull the lid off the ECU and look for anything loose or any burned elements. Take a picture and post it up here. Also, remove the main relay and post the circuit board for that up here as well.

The only other thing I can think of is a short in the wiring harness that becomes disturbed at a certain resonant frequency. Finding the source of that would be more difficult perhaps.

[Jeepzor]

Thank you for replying man. I'll try and take a look at that stuff tomorrow after work. I'm not sure how long its been since the cap/rotor/plugs and wires have been changed. Could be a really long time. There is oil in the holes so I haven't even checked them because I didn't want to fill the Combustion chamber with oil/debris, I'll find a way to get the oil out and check them.

Its the weirdest issue. At first I couldn't figure out a pattern so I thought loose wire or short, but after I figured out the pattern (only when cold) it just adjusted my routine. If it sat out in the sun sometimes and you started it it wouldn't do it. But if it was a cold humid day it did it.

At first when it started as long as it let it warm up it would clear up and run great. Was getting decent power and 31mpg. Right now its at home and hasn't moved in a month because it won't barely run and I don't trust it.

[H311RA151N]

Lower spark plug tube seals need replaced is the issue with oil around the plugs. That too will cause a miss.

The main relay can be visually inspected to see if it's faulty or not. I repair mine by resoldering and put them back in. So far I haven't had a repaired main relay fail.

Could be several issues contributing to the miss. On cold start and the tach jumping leads me to think it's the igniter aka ICM inside the distributor.

If the inside of the dizzy has been exposed to oil for some time the wiring could be faulty as well. Oil and heat tend to make the coating come off the wires after a while. If the lower spark plug tube seals are shot there is a good chance that the dizzy shaft seal is also leaking.

[af_1132]

There is really that much oil in the spark plug tubes? It's time to take off the rocker arm assembly and redo the tube seals underneath. How much oil are we talking here?

Edit: Sorry, Josh, didn't see your reply.

[H311RA151N]

^ Your just fine buddy.

[Jeepzor]

There is really that much oil in the spark plug tubes? It's time to take off the rocker arm assembly and redo the tube seals underneath. How much oil are we talking here?

Edit: Sorry, Josh, didn't see your reply.

Oil is probably 3/4-1" deep?

Every single Main relay thread I have read (100's) all state the same thing. It completely stalls out and dies and won't restart for whatever amount of time. This has only died once, and always starts right back up.

I've taken the cap off the dizzy and there was a lot of varnish in there. You can tell oil's been in there. Idk if its the shaft seal but the dizzy leaks out right out of the side of the motor. just haven't taken the time to fix it.

I've checked all the ground connections I could find myself but I searched all over and can't find a diagram. Know of any around?

Short Video I took. Excuse the profanity.

https://youtu.be/yw___oozVqE

[H311RA151N]

Oil is probably 3/4-1" deep?

Every single Main relay thread I have read (100's) all state the same thing. It completely stalls out and dies and won't restart for whatever amount of time. This has only died once, and always starts right back up.

I've taken the cap off the dizzy and there was a lot of varnish in there. You can tell oil's been in there. Idk if its the shaft seal but the dizzy leaks out right out of the side of the motor. just haven't taken the time to fix it.

I've checked all the ground connections I could find myself but I searched all over and can't find a diagram. Know of any around?

Short Video I took. Excuse the profanity.

Yeah, you need to address that ASAP. The only place you can get the seals are from Honda and of course you need four of them. Part number 91301-PT0-003 and typically run about $15-$20.

It would likely be a really good idea to suck as much oil out as you can before removing the plugs. I've had a dead miss from oil in the spark plug wells and not had that much oil pooling up around the plug.

It sounds like you really need to go through and do all the maintenance on it as evidently it's all past due. From what you have said thus far I cannot stress this enough.



EDIT in response to your edit.

About the main relay, evidently you have not read through my 1993 EX MRT yet. Which solder joints crack out and which combination of solder joints crack out at the same time means many different scenarios. It just so happens that the solder joint(s) for the fuel pump is the most common to crack out.

Oil in the dizzy is primarily the shaft seal, oil leaking out from around the dizzy/cam area and out on the trans is primarily the o-ring. They both tend to have around the same lifespan.

Checking out your vid now.

In response to the video, I have never seen that particular issue before. But check the grounds on the thermostat housing. The picture below was taken for totally different purposes but it's the first pic I came across of mine that I seen the grounds I'm referring to.



I also notice that you have a manual transmission so the location of another ground is to the left and just a couple inches down from the slave cylinder.

The third ground is on the right side of the valve cover. There are others but those are the ones I would check first and starting with the thermostat housing grounds.

Check the wiring on the alternator as well. What I'm going after here is the cause for the battery light to flicker at the same time the tach is going nuts.

[Jeepzor]

H311 I can't thank you enough for your help. I'll check all those grounds tomorrow when I'm off work. I think I see all the grounds your talking about in that picture, should be on the bolt for the t-stat housing, right next to the block? Pretty much directly under that connector in the picture? Looks like 6 or so smaller wires all landed on the same bolt?

Funny thing is I'll played in all these areas since getting the car, so its very possible I didn't tighten something correctly or bumped something. I'm in the midst of moving but once I get the car into my shop and get it running again she'll be getting a whole heap of maintenance.

[H311RA151N]

H3 I can't thank you enough for your help. I'll check all those grounds tomorrow when I'm off work. I think I see all the grounds your talking about in that picture, should be on the bolt for the t-stat housing, right next to the block? Pretty much directly under that connector in the picture? Looks like 6 or so smaller wires all landed on the same bolt?

Funny thing is I'll played in all these areas since getting the car, so its very possible I didn't tighten something correctly or bumped something. I'm in the midst of moving but once I get the car into my shop and get it running again she'll be getting a whole heap of maintenance.

Correct. Just to be perfectly clear, here you are. And you are very welcome!



If you were messing around in that area then it's very likely. I bump things and forget things from time to time as well.

Do you have any aftermarket audio system wiring off the battery or an existing amplifier wiring kit? Possibly a battery relocation kit?

[Jeepzor]

Yea, its highly likely I didn't fully tighten it and its loosened up. The car is 100% stock. Factory CD player and everything. Not modded in any way EXCEPT it does have an aftermarket security system and some old microchip ignition interlock.

I'm unsure how the ignition interlock ties into the ignition system but obviously it could have a hand in this as well.

[H311RA151N]

I'm not very knowledgeable about that kinda thing. But I think your likely right about it possibly having the ability to cause such issues as your experiencing now. If the process of elimination leads to that then I guess you know what to take to a look at.

That's good about being stock and no added amplifier power supply cables. I wanted to be sure that I didn't overlook something along those lines grounding out or anything.

Let us know how it goes. I'd like to see what's causing it.

[Jeepzor]

I'm not very knowledgeable about that kinda thing. But I think your likely right about it possibly having the ability to cause such issues as your experiencing now. If the process of elimination leads to that then I guess you know what to take to a look at.

That's good about being stock and no added amplifier power supply cables. I wanted to be sure that I didn't overlook something along those lines grounding out or anything.

Let us know how it goes. I'd like to see what's causing it.

I'll keep you updated! It'll be a few days before I'll get to tinker anymore.

[Jeepzor]

^ Your just fine buddy.

HellRaisin, I just wanted to give you major props for helping me out on this thing. I finally got a chance to pop to hood and work on it yesterday and I'm pretty sure I'm got it figured out. I believe it was the loose grounds on the T-stat housing.

I swapped in a new main relay and it still didn't help, so I opened the hood and searched for those grounds. Interestingly enough on my CB7 they aren't on the bolts for the T-stat housing, but directly below it on another bolt. I reached down there and grabbed them and sure enough they wiggled. Put the 10MM Hurt machine to it and started it up, smooth as glass. Drove it the past 2 days without a single issue.

Thank you for providing a picture and not just saying "Check your grounds". Providing that extra information might have saved my butt. I had checked all the grounds I knew about but never did see the "Illusive" T-stat grounds, until I saw your picture.

[jxiong12]

Hopefully it's fixed! I had the same issue.

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthre...azy+tachometer

For mine though I did actually take out the ground. Did you ever do that or did it just come loose?

The thermostat ground serves high purpose for the dizzy so in all, the problems you have received are technically a distributor problem caused indirectly by the ground wire.