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Old 03-11-2014, 05:31 PM   #1
Mishakol129
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Delta cam installed now car won't run

I just installed delta 260 cams for my F22b dohc head (water pump and timing belt was also installed), and now my car won't even run. It did run a few times but it was like garbage, wouldn't go past 500 rpms without me hitting the gas and did go above 500 rpms.
I tried adjusting the valves which were way loose and it still did not solve the problem. At first I thought there was just a giant air bubble in the system from when I changed the water pump.

I did the compression test, numbers were 170 across all 4.

I do not know what to do about this next, do I need adjustable cam gears maybe? I can pretty much attest that I did not do the timing wrong, it was set correctly.

Kind of disappointed with Delta, the 260 cams should not need anything extra in order to run, no springs or ECU. Although I did try a P39 ecu.


Btw I have a F22a block with a F22b head.


Help.


Thanks.
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http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


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Old 03-11-2014, 06:37 PM   #2
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If be willing to bet your physical timing is off, DOHCs can be tricky to time correctly.
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Old 03-11-2014, 07:40 PM   #3
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If be willing to bet your physical timing is off, DOHCs can be tricky to time correctly.
x2 to everything he said. that would be the absolute first place i look. after that. make sure the ignition timing and all that is correct which it probably is. do you have adjustable cam gears? should make it less painful to fix if you do. hopefully there wasnt any piston and valve interference.

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Old 03-11-2014, 08:51 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by 93twodoorLX View Post
x2 to everything he said. that would be the absolute first place i look. after that. make sure the ignition timing and all that is correct which it probably is. do you have adjustable cam gears? should make it less painful to fix if you do. hopefully there wasnt any piston and valve interference.

-sean
I did check the timing and even compression tested it. It has 170 compression. I gave up with trying to make them work and installed the stock cams and what do you know, it started right up and runs like a top again, just like it should. I don't have any adjustable cam gears and do not know how use them even if I had them.

I thought that delta's 260 grind was compatible with stock ecu, valvetrain, and without cam gears. I'm gonna call delta and ask what is going on with it, do you think its defective?

My timing couldn't have been off if it has good compression, right?
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

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Old 03-12-2014, 03:42 AM   #5
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I mean, the mechanical timing must have been good if I had such high compression test. So it was more than likely not the timing that was off. I messed with the distributor as well and it only ran when it was all the way advanced. Ran like garbage.

Any more tips would be appreciated.
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


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Old 03-12-2014, 08:59 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishakol129 View Post
I mean, the mechanical timing must have been good if I had such high compression test.
Why do you think that?


DOHC engines are harder to get the timing right. If you have done it a few times, you should know what we are suggesting.


I have read some of your threads on here and honda-tech about your ignition timing and listened to the video you posted etc etc etc.


I personally think you are having issues getting your mechanical timing correct.

Once installed, rotate crankshaft two full rotations and verify that your timing marks on the cam gears as well as the crank align.

If they do, rotate it two more times and check again. If its good, do this one more time and if that checks out, you have checked your mechanical timing.




Let me put it to you like this;


If it runs on oem cams just fine, but the 260's are causing issues, its something you are doing wrong in the process. Sorry if that is too blunt, but, it is true. The grind on this cam has nothing to do with any sort of issues you are having if you can't even get it to idle at a normal rpm or rev to anything at all but it runs perfect with oem cams.


Sorry, thats just not the cams fault. The changes are so minimal, and its a regrind of a factory cam-meaning the valve orientation and operation are still being ran by an oem cam that now has different angles, but, the same orientation for the lobe placement.

Sorry man. But, its not the cams fault. Something else is going on, and I think its your mechanical timing.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:08 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toycar View Post
Why do you think that?


DOHC engines are harder to get the timing right. If you have done it a few times, you should know what we are suggesting.


I have read some of your threads on here and honda-tech about your ignition timing and listened to the video you posted etc etc etc.


I personally think you are having issues getting your mechanical timing correct.

Once installed, rotate crankshaft two full rotations and verify that your timing marks on the cam gears as well as the crank align.

If they do, rotate it two more times and check again. If its good, do this one more time and if that checks out, you have checked your mechanical timing.




Let me put it to you like this;


If it runs on oem cams just fine, but the 260's are causing issues, its something you are doing wrong in the process. Sorry if that is too blunt, but, it is true. The grind on this cam has nothing to do with any sort of issues you are having if you can't even get it to idle at a normal rpm or rev to anything at all but it runs perfect with oem cams.


Sorry, thats just not the cams fault. The changes are so minimal, and its a regrind of a factory cam-meaning the valve orientation and operation are still being ran by an oem cam that now has different angles, but, the same orientation for the lobe placement.

Sorry man. But, its not the cams fault. Something else is going on, and I think its your mechanical timing.
I actually did get it to idle at normal rpms but it was hard to do so and took a long time to where it would go over 500 rpms. Most of the time after I got it to got that high, I had to press the gas or it would stall. I even drove the car down my driveway in reverse but it had such a hard time idling that It died. Eventually it started back up and started idling above 500 rpms.

I spoke with the honda specialist at Delta and he said that these cams should just be drop in and go, nothing special required. He said that I needed to check my timing. Now that I think about it, my timing wasn't perfect it was slightly off by almost a tooth. I could not get the cams to align perfectly. They were off about 1/4 a tooth each, going inward like this / \

However I've had my stock cams off by the same and the car still ran. I asked the Delta guy if perhaps these ground cams are more sensitive to timing misalignment and he said yes... He did say that I could return them though so he wasn't lying to me. It had to be something wrong with my timing or something I did that its not running.

I will try them one more time and this time the timing will be perfect. Just hope it works. Any tips such as adjusting the idle screw? Some people said that bigger cams cause less vacuum at idle and this is why it won't run right sometimes. I don't know. Need some tips, this cam seems pretty large. I don't need adjustable cam gears do I?
My head is only milled 0.015".
It seems like the car is not getting enough vacuum at idle.

Do you think a bigger exhaust would help it, its got a 2" straight through to the muffler with a stock cat. Maybe it will help to put the 2.25" I don't know.
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

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Old 03-12-2014, 08:09 PM   #8
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Stop looking to an exhaust to solve this issue. If you can't get your cam timing down then call someone over who can. That, or tow it to a shop who can set your cam timing and ignition timing. Just be done with it and have a car that you can drive for once.
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Old 03-12-2014, 08:20 PM   #9
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Stop looking to an exhaust to solve this issue. If you can't get your cam timing down then call someone over who can. That, or tow it to a shop who can set your cam timing and ignition timing. Just be done with it and have a car that you can drive for once.
Cam timing is perfect now, I figured out how to get it right. Gonna put the cams in once I get some new VC and cam gaskets. I really dislike how many bolts you gotta take off and on with the cam holders, just got a cordless drill that will make it much easier though. All I gotta do is remove the VC, distributor, and the PS pump and take the holders off to change them. Then I have to set the valve lash. Took me like 2 hours last time, not really looking forward to it...


Do you have any tips on how to set the idle once its installed?
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

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Old 03-13-2014, 09:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mishakol129 View Post
Cam timing is perfect now, I figured out how to get it right. Gonna put the cams in once I get some new VC and cam gaskets. I really dislike how many bolts you gotta take off and on with the cam holders, just got a cordless drill that will make it much easier though. All I gotta do is remove the VC, distributor, and the PS pump and take the holders off to change them. Then I have to set the valve lash. Took me like 2 hours last time, not really looking forward to it...


Do you have any tips on how to set the idle once its installed?
Get a gauge to measure vac. Don't guess anymore with diagnosing car problems, if you want help, let us help you. In order for us to do that, you gotta give 100% though. If money is an issue or whatever, just say that. We can help you get this perfect, but, you have to cooperate.


Adjustable cam gears would help you a ton. Reason you are having issues is the timing moves when you apply tension the cams rotate. Adjusting the gear properly so they rotate into the correct position is tricky. Especially on a DOHC engine if you have never had someone there to teach you how to do it right. It really is hard. I have been doing this for decades, and it still takes me a couple tries sometimes.


Most of the time I get it in one try, but, occasionally, its a pain in the ass. Adjustable cam gears allow you to adjust valve timing(cam gears) without taking the tension off the belt. The application of the tension is whats giving you problems and forcing things to move, so, yeah, adjustable gears would solve your problem for sure.






As far as being off 1 tooth and causing all of this, think about it like this;


Your cam gear most likely has 40 teeth. Don't quote me on that, but, most f22's have 40 teeth. So use that as an example/reference.

360 degrees of rotation / 40 teeth = 9 degrees of rotation per tooth. If each gear is off 1 tooth, think about what that does for your mechanical timing.


The intake timing is probably being delayed, and so you are not drawing any air into the cylinder. Sure, you still get compression in the cylinder on the up stroke, that doesn't mean you brought any volume of air into the cylinder though. The intake valve needs to open just after tdc so that as the piston draws down, the suction/vac created behind it can draw in more air. It closes at bdc so that the upstroke can compress the air. Exhaust valves open just before bdc to release the pressure in the cylinder, but are only open long enough to let the pressure out before the fresh intake cycle happens. And that is basically your valve event in description. So anyways, if your intake valve opens late, you have less opportunity to draw in air.

If your intake valve is opening late, most likely your exhaust valve is opening early as well. So, not only are you shortening the time you can draw air in, you are letting whatever air that you did draw in, out, before it is fully burnt after being compressed.

Hence barely running, but, no rpm's and no revs and unable to gain any momentum.



Check your timing my man, get it right. Get some adjustable gears if you are having a hard time.


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Old 03-14-2014, 06:33 AM   #11
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Preciate yer help bro.

In spite of all this, I am not sure its gonna run right even if I get the timing perfect. I wanna learn how to tune it, that will make it run the best. Been reading in the tuning section here and understand what it is I need to do it, but actually doing it seems confusing. I'm looking for the easiest and cost effective way of tuning it.
I know that can buy chip burners and other things and do it myself, which to me seems much better in the long run than taking it to a tuner who charges the same price as the stuff you can buy to tune it forever.

I'm willing to experiment with my current engine as well. What do I need to buy to do it? People say its difficult and a lot to learn but I think there should be shortcuts out there. You can already buy chip burners and chipped and socketed ecu's on ebay.
Maybe I don't know what i'm talking about, as always.
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

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Old 03-14-2014, 06:41 AM   #12
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Is this all I need besides a chipped ecu?

http://www.xenocron.com/diyer-intro-...age-p-238.html
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:10 AM   #13
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Quote:
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Maybe I don't know what i'm talking about
Tuning is really, really, really, elaborate and complex. The concept is simple.


Dial in afr's across the rpm range to get a quality burn keeping ignition timing inline with whats actually happening with the motor at the given rpm.



However, actually accomplishing that, well, thats a whole other story. You would be best off with an emulator and chipped ecu. An emulator allows you to tune on the fly, so as you are sitting in the passenger seat and a buddy is driving you can adjust and go based on what you are seeing. That being said, you need to datalog information so you can diagnose it and make proper adjustments in the tune.



SO, is that all you need to tune, well, kind of. You for sure need a wideband o2 sensor as well, but from there you could tune. To do it right, with your level of experience, you need to be able to log as well. So, look into that.


I cannot stress this enough though;

Its likely you will damage your motor when tuning. FYI
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Old 03-14-2014, 04:24 PM   #14
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People say its difficult and a lot to learn but I think there should be shortcuts out there.
Haven't you taken enough shortcuts? Tuning is not an area where you want to take any shortcuts.

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Maybe I don't know what i'm talking about, as always.
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Old 03-14-2014, 06:30 PM   #15
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Haven't you taken enough shortcuts? Tuning is not an area where you want to take any shortcuts.
I suppose, you know your stuff after all. Have you learned the art of tuning an OBD I ecu?

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When it comes to tuning and engine building that is....Do not disrespect my intelligence. I am the smartest person I know : )
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144

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Old 03-14-2014, 07:56 PM   #16
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I suppose, you know your stuff after all. Have you learned the art of tuning an OBD I ecu?




When it comes to tuning and engine building that is....Do not disrespect my intelligence. I am the smartest person I know : )
Congrats, you have finally replaced my sig.
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Old 03-14-2014, 09:38 PM   #17
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Quote:
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Adjustable cam gears would help you a ton. Reason you are having issues is the timing moves when you apply tension the cams rotate. Adjusting the gear properly so they rotate into the correct position is tricky. Especially on a DOHC engine if you have never had someone there to teach you how to do it right. It really is hard. I have been doing this for decades, and it still takes me a couple tries sometimes.


Most of the time I get it in one try, but, occasionally, its a pain in the ass. Adjustable cam gears allow you to adjust valve timing(cam gears) without taking the tension off the belt. The application of the tension is whats giving you problems and forcing things to move, so, yeah, adjustable gears would solve your problem for sure.
adjustable cam gears are not made to correct someone installing the timing belt improperly, they are there to change camshaft centerlines to the proper degree for the engine. you could bandaid it with cam gears but i dont recommend it and it should never be regarded as a proper repair for a problem. you should not be adjusting the cam gears without the proper tools such as a degreeing wheel and dial indicator.

as far as a proper idle adustment, you need to check tps voltage with throttle closed then wot. it should be between .45-.5V closed and 4.5ish at WOT, this will make sense in a minute. crank the car and get it to operating temprature. once at operating temp, switch the car off. next, jump the service connector behind the passenger side kick panel then start the car back up and unplug the iacv. then adjust the throttle screw until the car idles at target idle. cut switch off and plug iacv back up and remove jumper. now go back the tps and see where the voltages are. if they are not within spec adjust tps back to oem specs. tps if you have never adjusted still has the break off bolts. they can be easily removed by taking a dremel with a cutoff wheel and cutting a slot in the head of the bolt so it can be removed with a flat head screw driver.
pm me if you have any questions about it.
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Old 03-15-2014, 06:48 AM   #18
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I suppose, you know your stuff after all. Have you learned the art of tuning an OBD I ecu?
Yes, I learned the art of soldering and tuning ECU's/Engine management systems. I have chipped and modified both the OBD0 and OBD1 Honda ECUs. I have tuned using Crome, eCtune, Neptune, uberdata and TunerStudio MS.

I'm not saying that you couldn't do the very same.... I'm just saying that there are no shortcuts!
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Old 03-15-2014, 05:58 PM   #19
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Yes, I learned the art of soldering and tuning ECU's/Engine management systems. I have chipped and modified both the OBD0 and OBD1 Honda ECUs. I have tuned using Crome, eCtune, Neptune, uberdata and TunerStudio MS.

I'm not saying that you couldn't do the very same.... I'm just saying that there are no shortcuts!
That's pretty cool man. What did you need to purchase to do it and where did you go to study this secret art?
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Very first tear down and rebuild. vvv
http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755"]http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=193755


Current Build, F23 block F22b dohc head:

http://www.cb7tuner.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=203144
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Old 03-16-2014, 12:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
adjustable cam gears are not made to correct someone installing the timing belt improperly, they are there to change camshaft centerlines to the proper degree for the engine. you could bandaid it with cam gears but i dont recommend it and it should never be regarded as a proper repair for a problem. you should not be adjusting the cam gears without the proper tools such as a degreeing wheel and dial indicator.
I agree, this sounds totally reasonable. I wasn't even thinking of doing this because I have not the proper experience in how to use them. If they would help my engine run on these cams then I would get them though and try to make them work. Head is milled 0.015" by the way, if that matters any.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm92_accorn View Post
as far as a proper idle adustment, you need to check tps voltage with throttle closed then wot. it should be between .45-.5V closed and 4.5ish at WOT, this will make sense in a minute. crank the car and get it to operating temprature. once at operating temp, switch the car off. next, jump the service connector behind the passenger side kick panel then start the car back up and unplug the iacv. then adjust the throttle screw until the car idles at target idle. cut switch off and plug iacv back up and remove jumper. now go back the tps and see where the voltages are. if they are not within spec adjust tps back to oem specs. tps if you have never adjusted still has the break off bolts. they can be easily removed by taking a dremel with a cutoff wheel and cutting a slot in the head of the bolt so it can be removed with a flat head screw driver.
pm me if you have any questions about it.
Okay, I saw the guide on how to set the TPS but why would I need to do that if its already at its factory setting?
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Last edited by Mishakol129; 03-16-2014 at 12:50 AM.
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