A rant about "saving a buck" when modifying your car.

[Lucien]

I'm starting to think this whole tuner situation is no different than other car scene eras before ours and we're no special snowflakes.

I'm sure grease monkeys from the 50's/60's/70's/80's/90's all went through and complained about the same things. The new lazy kids that don't know nothin'. The cheap parts going around that aren't as good as what you got. The general feeling of something fun being watered down; the enjoyment lost.

Just like with fashion trends, it's the same shit over and over. Most people learn to wrench through trial and error and some start off with shit parts because they just want mods NOW and don't fully understand the money and time they're wasting in the long run.

I try to help answer questions when i can and i try to educate the ignorant on what i know, because less dumb = more fun.

[deevergote]

I don't like the implication that it's my responsibility to keep any company in business, or even in a certain market. Where does that end? The original being the best! That's a matter of opinion in almost every case. I hope you have a samsung tv and only by Electrolux vacuums, Maytag washer, dryer, stove and refrigerator. You should only wear Jordan's to play basketball, and 800 dollar suits to work.
If you don't you are spending your money wrong, that money belongs in the hands of the original proprietor of a certain product as long as they are still at the top of their game in most peoples opinion? How about stop buying accords or BMW will quit making the three series.
Hondas are killing the scene! (These are real opinions of someone)

You are clearly taking things entirely out of context.


Company A makes a product. Involved in the making of that product is the engineering, designing, testing, marketing... everything necessary to ensure it functions as it should.
Let's say Company A sells their product for $1000.

Company B COPIES the product (not a competitor, a cheap reproduction). The production of that copy does not include any of the engineering, designing, testing, or even marketing of the original. That work has already been done on Company A's dime. By making an exact (or near exact) copy of Company A's design without the initial R&D investment, Company B can offer a lower price. By cutting quality control and using inferior materials, Company B can make the price lower still!
Company B is able to sell a seemingly identical product for $400.

Now everybody is flocking to Company B, because why pay $1000 when you can pay $400? The discount is such that people think it's worth the risk. They're willing to buy an inferior product, because the price is so much lower. That's fantastic!

However, the design of the product is now outdated. There could be vast improvements over the original design. More precise tooling could allow for tighter tolerances, and a much more reliable, effective product.
It's a shame that Company B doesn't actually have the ability to engineer a new product. They don't have what it takes to make Version Two. They'd need Company A to make that product first, so they could copy it.
Alas, Company A isn't going to bother making Version Two for that particular platform. They know that nobody wants to pay $1000 for their product, and with the cost of R&D, quality manufacturing, and quality materials, they could never compete with the pricing of Company B's copies. SO they don't make Version Two for us. They make it for newer cars. They make it for people that will buy it.
Company B eventually realizes that everyone that was interested in that product has already purchased it, and they could use their factory and warehouse space for something more current... so they cease production of the product.

By supporting Company B, we've driven Company A away from our market. With no further original products to copy, Company B eventually moves on as well. We're left with nothing. We're left scrounging in junkyards and searching on ebay for old, tired, worn out versions of the original products (because you didn't really expect the cheap product from Company B to last long enough to be sold second hand, did you?)




What I'm saying is in regards to blatant copies, particularly of specific high end designs. HyTech headers are often copied, and sold for 1/3 the price. I've seen various copycats come and go. Every time I look, there's a new name... and the old names are nowhere to be found. When HyTech stops making things for them to copy, they'll stop making copies.
Designs that are fairly generic, that are unlikely to have any serious engineering behind them (such as DC Sports... which basically just takes the stock manifold design and enlarges it) aren't as big a deal. Megan Racing didn't deal much damage to DC Sports by selling a significantly similar header... largely because DC Sports never put much effort into their own piece to begin with. Granted, if nobody buys DC's product, which is superior to Megan's, then we'll eventually only be left with Megan's inferior product.

Wheels aren't usually car-specific. Buying a set of Rotas isn't going to put Volk out of business. But it might cause Volk to stop producing wheels in 4x114.3.
Personally, I have Falken Hanabis. $130 wheels. They're not expensive. They're cast, not forged. They're nothing special. They are cheap wheels. They are also original designs.



I am not arguing against competition. I'm not saying that just because a company did it first, that no other company should do the same thing. Not at all.
I am referring to blatant copies. Products made by making low-quality copies of existing products, with no engineering or testing behind them. Essentially, products that steal the R&D (the intellectual property) behind an original product, and produce them for less using cheap materials and manufacturing processes. Those things are dealing a fatal blow to our available aftermarket, and the "right now" generation is too blind to see it. Most of those people will have moved on from this platform by the time the effects are felt. Those of us left will have few options remaining to us.


So yes, it is your responsibility. It's everyone's responsibility.
If we don't support the originators, there will eventually be nothing for us. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to spend all your money on high-end parts. Just try to avoid copies, and try to avoid recommending copies to others.
There ARE inexpensive products out there that aren't full-on rip-offs of current products.

[deevergote]

I'm starting to think this whole tuner situation is no different than other car scene eras before ours and we're no special snowflakes.

I'm sure grease monkeys from the 50's/60's/70's/80's/90's all went through and complained about the same things. The new lazy kids that don't know nothin'. The cheap parts going around that aren't as good as what you got. The general feeling of something fun being watered down; the enjoyment lost.

Just like with fashion trends, it's the same shit over and over. Most people learn to wrench through trial and error and some start off with shit parts because they just want mods NOW and don't fully understand the money and time they're wasting in the long run.

I try to help answer questions when i can and i try to educate the ignorant on what i know, because less dumb = more fun.

You're very right. I'm sure the guys that were tuning Hondas in the early 90s saw anyone on an internet forum as being lazy. Now, the forum guys look at the Facebook kids as being lazy.

The internet, along with the drastic increase in popularity of the tuning culture) has certainly spawned a great deal of low-quality junk. In many ways, the stuff we had years ago IS better than the stuff we have now! Not always, as manufacturing processes, engineering, and technology overall have improved over the years... It's likely that many of the cheap Chinese parts you can get on ebay these days are comparable in quality to the brand-name parts we could've purchased 10 years ago. However, the quality brand-name parts today are far superior.


The issue today, at least for me, isn't as much about the ignorance and laziness of the newbies. The kicker for me is the seemingly growing group of "experienced tuners" that encourage reckless halfassing. There was a time when the experienced people educated the inexperienced. Now, the experienced people perpetuate the ignorance, and defend the ignorant.

[Lucien]

Agreed, Deev.

Something that i think is a large contributor is that people that like our chassis but are new to owning one, have accomplished some basic mods by themselves and/or have taken some automotive classes, tend to think they know more than they do.

This works, ironically i guess, in tandem with their infatuation with cb's and their total encouragement to newbs or people considering the chassis to JUST GET MODDING!! regardless of lack of forethought and proper planning to ensure a well balanced and safe car at the end of it.

This then leads to people arguing about $30 coilovers and "g22" builds being the second coming of whatever deity you believe in. I believe the age of the chassis and the general demographic it appeals to are largely the cause for this seemingly never ending shit cycle.

[owequitit]

You're missing my point, Scott.
My point wasn't that we're suffering from horrible smog issues. The picture was merely for effect.

You said it yourself... our air quality has improved since the 70s. Why? Because of catalytic converters and other emissions control devices.
Granted, if every enthusiast in the US were to remove their emissions control devices, the effect would probably not be measurable. HOWEVER, it will be illegal. If it generates enough notices among lawmakers, stricter laws will be passed, and our hobbies will be affected.

My point is that people are modifying their cars irresponsibly. Years ago, people that did so were given a hard time by more experienced enthusiasts who knew better. These days, the people who know better have largely moved on. Anyone who criticizes an irresponsible modification gets attacked for it. They are a "hater". The attitude of "It's my car, I can do what I want with it" is prevalent, regardless of the impact it has on others (safety, environment, aftermarket, laws...)

I didn't miss anything. I make a specific comment about a specific part of your post.

Oh, and FYI, the majority of pollution gains have come from the implementation of PGM-FI, NOT catalytic converters as you assert (which have largely remained functionally the same since the 1970's). In fact, the majority of pollution gains have been as a result of the pursuit for more power (requiring engines to get more efficient, thus producing less waste, thus producing less polution). Don't forget that in a perfect combustion event the only two by-products would be water and CO2.

The rest of your post I mostly agree with.

[owequitit]

I don't like the implication that it's my responsibility to keep any company in business, or even in a certain market. Where does that end? The original being the best! That's a matter of opinion in almost every case. I hope you have a samsung tv and only by Electrolux vacuums, Maytag washer, dryer, stove and refrigerator. You should only wear Jordan's to play basketball, and 800 dollar suits to work.
If you don't you are spending your money wrong, that money belongs in the hands of the original proprietor of a certain product as long as they are still at the top of their game in most peoples opinion? How about stop buying accords or BMW will quit making the three series.
Hondas are killing the scene! (These are real opinions of someone)

This is kind of hyperbolic to be honest.

There is a difference between legal patent implementation and technological development than outright copying.

There are other ways to vacuum besides using an Electrolux bag vacuum, such as all the bagless vacuums and vacuums like the Rainbow SE which use water filtration. Of course, your point denies that fact that in a lot of developments, Electrolux would have actually LICENSED the technology to other companies, in turn putting the OK on the development, whereas when someone copies and rips off someone else's work, they don't get any kick back at all. Also, for the record, you would BUY an Electrolux, not by one.

The assertion about the Accord versus the 3 series is just laugable. They are not even architecturally similar, let alone the Accord being a cheap knockoff copy.

Also, the other main issue with the enthusiast market is that there aren't many players (especially in regards to an old Honda chassis that was never popular for tuning to begin with) so when a company spends money to develop a part or technology, and then someone else rips it off for free, the original company leaves. Since the rip off company only knows how to copy, and not engineer, guess what you are left with? Nothing but outdated copied technology. Further, as Deev has already asserted (correctly), there is a plethora of "copy" stuff and "cheap" stuff that isn't even safe or reliable to put on your car.

[H311RA151N]

This is kind of hyperbolic to be honest.

There is a difference between legal patent implementation and technological development than outright copying.

There are other ways to vacuum besides using an Electrolux bag vacuum, such as all the bagless vacuums and vacuums like the Rainbow SE which use water filtration. Of course, your point denies that fact that in a lot of developments, Electrolux would have actually LICENSED the technology to other companies, in turn putting the OK on the development, whereas when someone copies and rips off someone else's work, they don't get any kick back at all. Also, for the record, you would BUY an Electrolux, not by one.

The assertion about the Accord versus the 3 series is just laugable. They are not even architecturally similar, let alone the Accord being a cheap knockoff copy.

Also, the other main issue with the enthusiast market is that there aren't many players (especially in regards to an old Honda chassis that was never popular for tuning to begin with) so when a company spends money to develop a part or technology, and then someone else rips it off for free, the original company leaves. Since the rip off company only knows how to copy, and not engineer, guess what you are left with? Nothing but outdated copied technology. Further, as Deev has already asserted (correctly), there is a plethora of "copy" stuff and "cheap" stuff that isn't even safe or reliable to put on your car.

^^^ This is what I have always thought. Word for word.

[cb7 calling]

This is kind of hyperbolic to be honest.

There is a difference between legal patent implementation and technological development than outright copying.

There are other ways to vacuum besides using an Electrolux bag vacuum, such as all the bagless vacuums and vacuums like the Rainbow SE which use water filtration. Of course, your point denies that fact that in a lot of developments, Electrolux would have actually LICENSED the technology to other companies, in turn putting the OK on the development, whereas when someone copies and rips off someone else's work, they don't get any kick back at all. Also, for the record, you would BUY an Electrolux, not by one.

The assertion about the Accord versus the 3 series is just laugable. They are not even architecturally similar, let alone the Accord being a cheap knockoff copy.

Also, the other main issue with the enthusiast market is that there aren't many players (especially in regards to an old Honda chassis that was never popular for tuning to begin with) so when a company spends money to develop a part or technology, and then someone else rips it off for free, the original company leaves. Since the rip off company only knows how to copy, and not engineer, guess what you are left with? Nothing but outdated copied technology. Further, as Deev has already asserted (correctly), there is a plethora of "copy" stuff and "cheap" stuff that isn't even safe or reliable to put on your car.

I will not even edit that buy the way. I will remain an idiot.

For the record I dont really disagree with you or deeve, I just dont like the seemingly blind hate toward what I consider technology sharing. Not nessasarily portrayed by deeve or owequit but some tuners take it too far.

Did dyson liscence their technology to eureeka? Half the vacumes on the shelf have some close but not the same iteration of the cyclone now.

I was trying to say, where does it end? It happens everywhere but I was stating extremes. I guess my point is all any company does or person at all is stand on the shoulders of the person tha came before them. Honda did not invent the wheel and thousands of other things in a cb7. I dont think all the styling simularities inside and out as well as fit and finish between the cb and a 3 of the same era are just coinsidence. I definitely understand the differences, but if there where no price difference honda would not have sold very many accords in the early 90's or ever.

Safety can not be argued, and some of these parts are not as safe as others.
I would say though it might be safer to run eibach race springs on kyb shocks than 24 year old saggy factory springs on original shocks. Hard to say. I can definitetly tell you though I cant sell my whole car for the price of tien coil overs. With the coil overs on it.

So I actually do have safe reliable springs and shocks, all new ball joints, bushings and 23 year old brake lines, brake booster and master cylinder. So as I pinball through stopped traffic my wheels will stay on. Where does that end? A 2015 accord is the safest solution I can think of.

Reliable? The most reliable thing to do to a cb7 is leave it alone.

30,000 of the members on this site have no buisness buying or even using a hy tech header if it was free. They should sell it and get a dc. Neither company invented exhaust gas evacuation. Where do I buy stance yo? Should never have three peice wheels. There is a reason not all the parts are the best there is.

I do believe in buying the best that can be responsibly justified (afforded) but if I see a kid on the basketball court wearing and1's from meijer I dont pull him aside and discuss his inadaquate footwear. I look around and realize we are on the cb7 of basketball courts.

[deevergote]

Agreed, Deev.

Something that i think is a large contributor is that people that like our chassis but are new to owning one, have accomplished some basic mods by themselves and/or have taken some automotive classes, tend to think they know more than they do.

This works, ironically i guess, in tandem with their infatuation with cb's and their total encouragement to newbs or people considering the chassis to JUST GET MODDING!! regardless of lack of forethought and proper planning to ensure a well balanced and safe car at the end of it.

This then leads to people arguing about $30 coilovers and "g22" builds being the second coming of whatever deity you believe in. I believe the age of the chassis and the general demographic it appeals to are largely the cause for this seemingly never ending shit cycle.

That's largely the problem, I agree. The fact that people think that minor experience makes them an expert (to the point where they insult anyone that disagrees with them), the fact that people are interested in immediate gains rather than long term responsible modification, and the fact that the type of people buying these now-cheap cars are different than they once were.
Also, people today have the added responsibility of restoring their cars before modifying them. A responsibility that goes largely neglected. 10 years ago, there weren't nearly as many dangerously worn out things on these cars! We could modify with less focus on restoration (and we did.)

I didn't miss anything. I make a specific comment about a specific part of your post.

Oh, and FYI, the majority of pollution gains have come from the implementation of PGM-FI, NOT catalytic converters as you assert (which have largely remained functionally the same since the 1970's). In fact, the majority of pollution gains have been as a result of the pursuit for more power (requiring engines to get more efficient, thus producing less waste, thus producing less polution). Don't forget that in a perfect combustion event the only two by-products would be water and CO2.

The rest of your post I mostly agree with.

That is true. I'm arguing that point more from a legal standpoint than an environmental one. You are correct that PGM-FI was more responsible for cleaner air than catalytic converters. However, the converters are still important, and lawmakers know this. If pollution increases due to modified vehicles, lawmakers aren't going to nitpick. The will just make the law stricter until the only thing you can do with a modified car is tow it to a race track!

Also, the other main issue with the enthusiast market is that there aren't many players (especially in regards to an old Honda chassis that was never popular for tuning to begin with) so when a company spends money to develop a part or technology, and then someone else rips it off for free, the original company leaves. Since the rip off company only knows how to copy, and not engineer, guess what you are left with? Nothing but outdated copied technology. Further, as Deev has already asserted (correctly), there is a plethora of "copy" stuff and "cheap" stuff that isn't even safe or reliable to put on your car.

^THAT!
That says nearly everything I've been saying in a much more concise manner.

I will not even edit that buy the way. I will remain an idiot.

For the record I dont really disagree with you or deeve, I just dont like the seemingly blind hate toward what I consider technology sharing. Not nessasarily portrayed by deeve or owequit but some tuners take it too far.

Did dyson liscence their technology to eureeka? Half the vacumes on the shelf have some close but not the same iteration of the cyclone now.

I was trying to say, where does it end? It happens everywhere but I was stating extremes. I guess my point is all any company does or person at all is stand on the shoulders of the person tha came before them. Honda did not invent the wheel and thousands of other things in a cb7. I dont think all the styling simularities inside and out as well as fit and finish between the cb and a 3 of the same era are just coinsidence. I definitely understand the differences, but if there where no price difference honda would not have sold very many accords in the early 90's or ever.

Safety can not be argued, and some of these parts are not as safe as others.
I would say though it might be safer to run eibach race springs on kyb shocks than 24 year old saggy factory springs on original shocks. Hard to say. I can definitetly tell you though I cant sell my whole car for the price of tien coil overs. With the coil overs on it.

So I actually do have safe reliable springs and shocks, all new ball joints, bushings and 23 year old brake lines, brake booster and master cylinder. So as I pinball through stopped traffic my wheels will stay on. Where does that end? A 2015 accord is the safest solution I can think of.

Reliable? The most reliable thing to do to a cb7 is leave it alone.

30,000 of the members on this site have no buisness buying or even using a hy tech header if it was free. They should sell it and get a dc. Neither company invented exhaust gas evacuation. Where do I buy stance yo? Should never have three peice wheels. There is a reason not all the parts are the best there is.

I do believe in buying the best that can be responsibly justified (afforded) but if I see a kid on the basketball court wearing and1's from meijer I dont pull him aside and discuss his inadaquate footwear. I look around and realize we are on the cb7 of basketball courts.

You still seem to be misunderstanding. Blatant copying is not "technology sharing" unless the copies are licensed. You also seem to think that we're still harping on "only buy the very first product of the type to come out!" No. We're saying to buy original, quality products. Not cheaply made copycat products.

ASA wheels license designs from BBS. They are permitted to use BBS's designs for their inexpensive cast wheels. Copies? Yes. Legit copies of wheels you can't buy in cast form (I don't think... I haven't looked deeply enough... so if you want to argue here, this is where to start).

You mention Eureka vs Dyson. Yes, they are similar cyclone designs. Eureka clearly drew both their function and design from Dyson. I'm quite certain Dyson had a patent on the technology that may have expired by now.
HOWEVER, this means two things. 1) Dyson, with their patent, was allowed exclusive use of the design for a time, and 2) by the time Dyson's patent expired, they were already making new designs. Eureka essentially copied the old, out of date design.
I know this quite well... because I have a piece of shit Eureka vacuum, and I have on a number of occasions made the 45 minute trek to my mom's to borrow her Dyson!

Patents are a limited time thing, and once a patent runs out, the design CAN be copied legally, as long as the original brand name isn't used to market the copy (which is where my problem lies with "Hytech style" or "Apexi style" parts)
The only problem with limited-production parts made for a specific engine or chassis is that a patent application can take far too long. By the time a product gets patented, it's too late. The market already dried up.
"Hay guise! I have this amazing new product for the Daewoo Lanos!"
Small companies like RMF and SMSP didn't have the time to patent their header designs before putting them into production. Honestly, I'm sure they didn't even see the need to. BUT, their designs were both copied and sold on eBay for a fraction of the cost. Those copies were known to crack, warp, and not fit from the beginning. I don't know for certain, but I don't doubt that both companies received angry communication from the buyers of the cheap copies who thought they had purchased the real deal.


Here's an example of "shared technology" that still illustrates the inferior quality of copycat products.
BC and Megan Racing both make their coilovers at the same factory (allegedly... I haven't been able to prove that firsthand.) They use the same tools. Now, they ARE two different companies. That means that they only share manufacturing facilities and tooling. The shape and design of their products are similar, but the materials and build quality are not.
This article shows a decent comparison of the two. It does say that BC is better, yet does not say that Megan is crap. However, after reading and understanding the differences, there's no way I'd go with the inferior model just to save $200. Keep in mind that the obvious external shortcuts taken by Megan could very easily have been continued internally as well.
Anyway, here's the article:
http://blog.modernperformance.com/di...egan-coilovers

[Julianachos]

I just left the group and can agree with this.



Anywho, hooray for remembering my login info!

[cb7 calling]

Ok guys. I see what you are saying, and to some degree agree.

You mean you just left the Facebook group?

I know nothing about what happens anywhere on the inter webs. (Except here and what I hear)

[19dabeast85]

I only read the first page because posts started getting realllly long after that, lol.

I wrecked my cb7 just over a year ago and because I had a baby on the way purchased an 01 Audi Allroad as a bigger, safer family car. I'm glad I learned how to work on cars during my 5 years with my cb7, holy cow!

My Audi is modified and will continue to be modified but one thing I keep thinking about and is relevant to this thread: The price of original, highest quality parts (ESP, Bisi, Progress, Neuspeed, Tein, H&R, Bilstein, etc) for our cb7's ARE CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to the European aftermarket. My whole perspective on what's expensive has changed since owning the Audi.

I hope to be back in a cb7 one day but I'm finding it extremely difficult to find one that hasn't been raped and abused as Deev said somewhere in a post, I see fewer and fewer every day.

[deevergote]

Ok guys. I see what you are saying, and to some degree agree.

You mean you just left the Facebook group?

I know nothing about what happens anywhere on the inter webs. (Except here and what I hear)

Gone. Done. It's in the hands of a number of other moderators. From the sound of it, they're keeping things under control. Though from posts I've seen on other Facebook groups, there is considerable butthurt from people being banned. I believe 80% of the bans issued on the Facebook group are for racial slurs. People seem to think being banned for an offensive slur is unfair.
The funny thing is, I've been gone for some time now... and I still see posts popping up in other groups that I follow that say "I just got banned from the CB7tuner group. Fuck deev!"





Someone just reposted the comment on Accord-Nation that inspired the initial post here. I responded yet again to it. A bit more concise, this time.
I prefer my new wording:

"When your cheap ebay suspension turns your car into a potential uncontrollable missile on the highway, putting innocent lives at risk, I'll say something. When your illegal and unsafe modifications inspire lawmakers to crack down and make it harder for ME to legally modify my car, I'll say something.
Your car is your business, until your decisions affect me. Then it's my business."

[cb7 calling]

I only read the first page because posts started getting realllly long after that, lol.

I wrecked my cb7 just over a year ago and because I had a baby on the way purchased an 01 Audi Allroad as a bigger, safer family car. I'm glad I learned how to work on cars during my 5 years with my cb7, holy cow!

My Audi is modified and will continue to be modified but one thing I keep thinking about and is relevant to this thread: The price of original, highest quality parts (ESP, Bisi, Progress, Neuspeed, Tein, H&R, Bilstein, etc) for our cb7's ARE CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to the European aftermarket. My whole perspective on what's expensive has changed since owning the Audi.

I hope to be back in a cb7 one day but I'm finding it extremely difficult to find one that hasn't been raped and abused as Deev said somewhere in a post, I see fewer and fewer every day.

Does the allroad have the audi airbag suspension?
Its the simplicity of the cb that helps drive aftermarket price down.
Think back to 2004, how many 1981 anythings were rolling around all pristine.

[spiderpig]

Reliable? The most reliable thing to do to a cb7 is leave it alone.