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Old 08-11-2011, 10:54 AM   #1
mr_lude
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F22a block f22b vtec sohc head???

Hey guys I'm not sure if this has been answeres before but wondering if the f22b vtec sohc head would be a straight swap onto the f22a block and would you have tto run a different ecu or can you run it with the f22a ecu?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:06 AM   #2
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Did you bother searching to see if maybe it had been answered before? (because it has.)

Yes, it can be done with minor modifications. No, you cannot use the F22A's ECU, because you need an ECU that will work with VTEC. It will run with the F22A's ECU, but you won't have VTEC.

HOWEVER, the F22A head is much better suited to performance than the F22B1 head. The F22B1 head flows like crap, and the VTEC system works on the intake valves only. It is not a performance oriented version of VTEC. Doing such a headswap would be a downgrade. Wasted effort.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:18 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Did you bother searching to see if maybe it had been answered before? (because it has.)

Yes, it can be done with minor modifications. No, you cannot use the F22A's ECU, because you need an ECU that will work with VTEC. It will run with the F22A's ECU, but you won't have VTEC.

HOWEVER, the F22A head is much better suited to performance than the F22B1 head. The F22B1 head flows like crap, and the VTEC system works on the intake valves only. It is not a performance oriented version of VTEC. Doing such a headswap would be a downgrade. Wasted effort.

yeh i looked for it i couldn't find it sorry man i know this would have been asked 100 times sorry to be annoying ive asked and looked on so many honda forums, i keep getting different answers, my main goal is i want to go turbo, io have a f22a1, i know there great for turboing because of the iron sleeves they can hold boost well up to 10psi, but i also got told the have terrible flowing heads? and the f22b head was much better flowing? is this wrong info?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:22 AM   #4
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That is absolutely wrong. The F22A is one of the best flowing heads Honda has ever made, especially when you open up the exhaust ports a bit. Bisimoto's naturally aspirated race engine is an F22A. It makes over 450hp.
The F22B1 head has cramped ports, a poor valve angle, and that cumbersome and useless VTEC system. SOHC VTEC is garbage on the F series engines, at least when it comes to performance. The system was implemented for 2 reasons: 1) fuel economy, and 2) to make people say "ooh, that car has VTEC! I want to buy it!"

The whole "this engine is good for turbo because of the iron sleeves" stuff is more bullshit. Yes, it will hold 10psi. But the FRM sleeves in the H22 and H23 will also do that. Apparently, you're getting your information from people that don't actually understand what they're talking about.
The F22A will hold 10psi or more with a properly sized turbo and a good tune... until the ringlands break. Then you'll need to upgrade the internals (doing so before you go turbo would make life easier...) The internals are not made for turbo, especially in a 20 year old engine.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:33 AM   #5
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ok well that makes life a lot easier, so then with a low budget like i have, the f22a is the best motor out of the f22 series to turbo? i wanted to put a good turbo setup and tune on the stock motor while i very slowly rebuild another f series motor to hold high boost. As long as the stock internals would hold out on low boost for a year id be happy. is 10 psi maybe to much would 6-8 be safer?
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:42 AM   #6
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I would stick to lower boost, definitely. Doing a compression and leakdown test on your engine before installing any turbo parts would be wise, just to make sure it's healthy from the start. If it's not... then I'd forgo trying to boost it, and just focus on building the spare. Of course, boosting the stock block is a smart way to gain experience, so you don't do something dumb with the built one and accidentally blow that up! (I've seen it happen...)

With a properly sized turbo, the rule of thumb is about 10hp per psi... so a 60hp boost over stock will be plenty fun. Just be very careful. Keep an eye on the engine for any signs of failure. Use the proper gauges (boost, oil pressure, etc..), tune it (or have it tuned) very carefully. Read your spark plugs regularly. Check for any type of smoke from the tailpipe (having someone follow you on the highway while you floor it is helpful... most smoking problems happen at WOT before they start to show signs at partial throttle.)
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:53 AM   #7
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yeh well thats what i wanted to do, gain some experience on this motor and buy a really low milage one and rebuild it later on, how would i go doing a compression test on my block?(sorry if its in another thread) and is there any other checks i should do before going turbo? ive always serviced my f22a every 5-10xxx kms with good oils and so forth and its very healthy atm, but a compression test would be a good start
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:54 AM   #8
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You can take it to a shop, or buy the tool to do the test at your local autoparts store. The tool will come with instructions.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:17 PM   #9
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While we're sorta on the topic of mismatching, it's basically confirmed that the f22a head is the bees knees. What about bottom ends? Obviously the 2.3 has a slight displacement advantage as well as larger mains. Besides that, are there any desireable or undesirable differences among f22a vs obd1 b1/2 or obd2 b1/2/f23?
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:51 PM   #10
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Honestly, when mixing and matching blocks and heads, you have to take bore size and combustion chamber diameter into account (if there is a difference, you'll have a sharp ridge in your combustion chamber, asking for detonation.) You'll also have to take into consideration the stroke and piston dome height, to ensure you don't smack a piston into a valve. Then you have to think about compression and redline... is the bottom end going to be able to rev high enough (safely) to make power with the chosen head? Is the bottom end going to result in extremely low compression, therefore not taking advantage of the head? (Those last two are more important for H22 heads on F series blocks.) Also, many headswaps require oil passages to be plugged. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of plugging up oil passages for any reason. Oil starvation is rarely the cause of damage to a hybrid motor, but I'm still not comfortable with the idea.

Honestly, with F and H series engines, your best bet is to stick with a complete engine. I know the Civic/Integra guys love their B20 VTEC and LS-VTEC... but we don't have anything that's really worth doing like those. There are a handful of F/H hybrids running around that have been going for a very long time (and at least one of them is fully built). Just about ALL of them have been built by people with lots of knowledge and experience. I've seen twice as many fail.
My rule of thumb is this: if you have to ask about a headswap, you don't know enough to do it reliably. If you know enough to do it, you don't need to ask "can I do it?". If you know enough to do it, you'll also know what properties of such a hybrid would fit your needs. Personally, I don't see ANY properties of these builds that are appealing.
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Old 08-15-2011, 01:26 PM   #11
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So in the most comparable case, f22a head and f22b2 block where basically every dimension is shared (.1cc combustion chamber volume difference from a quick search), there's nothing you would gain by running a generation newer block? I mean, that's not unheard of, look at the heads lol.
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Old 08-15-2011, 07:48 PM   #12
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There really are no significant gains. For the amount of work and attention to detail necessary to really make a different block match properly, you could just install aftermarket internals in the original block and end up with a much stronger, much more reliable engine overall.
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Old 08-16-2011, 08:44 AM   #13
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well that puts my mind at ease that i'm not really giving anything up by building a spare f22a1. Thanks.
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:37 AM   #14
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G
2
2

google it
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Old 08-16-2011, 10:48 AM   #15
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Dammit Oscar...

Yeah, google that idiotic combination and read all the things I've had to say about it in the past...
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:05 AM   #16
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I dont understand why the f22b1 gets such a bad wrap on this site.

Bench flow tests show they are similar in flow, until you start porting and polishing heads. The stock A series head flows around 280 cfm and the b1 is in the ballpark of 235-245 depending on who's doing the testing(read several bench flow results, can be found via google)

http://www.accordinglydone.com/forum...ad.php?t=14075

Heres one on the b2 head, which has similar ports, smaller intake valve and no variable cam.

The port design is superior on the f22a for porting options, no doubt about it. But the B1 has a variable cam profile, which to me puts more on the table in terms of debate. I dont understand why anyone thinks its a waste either. The cam profile when engaged in vtec is one that wouldn't be a nice ride for a daily. SOHC non vtec with same profile as the vtec would be a rougher ride. Plus, the smaller ports equate to faster response down low. Granted that also limits the higher RPM's, but what are you using the car for yanno?


I think the variable cam profile that comes with the vtec makes for cam upgrades from bisi very attractive. The two stage vtec engagement, even though its only a SOHC, creates a situation for a very modifiable cam that could be designed specifcally for what your doing. I think the tune/cam could move vtec around to be more performance related, and actually I plan on building a turbo b1 next. Im intrigued by Bisi's cam design ability.

I realize the a-series head is better for overall performance/racing, but the b1 has a nice design as well.

The smaller ports equate to 35-45 cfm difference in head flow(per flow bench results, oem vs oem) but generate more torque and throttle response. At first glance the ports seem way bigger, but the b1 ports are taller. The a series does flow better, no two questions about that. But, that doesnt mean the b1 head is shit either. Not in my opinion. Theres quite a few turbo b1's making nice power, and the vtec makes a ton of difference on the dyno when modified engagement and cam profiles are taken in to account.


The variable cam, even though its intake only, is HUGE in terms of boost applications. Just like mitsu went to smaller ports on the 1995-1999 dsm's, the idea here is smaller ports produce more pressure faster. More pressure=more throttle response. How do you suppose the 2g dsm produces more power on a smaller turbo, with smaller ports then the 1g?

Pressure

remember though, pressure = torque and flow = HP.

Torque = work, HP = over time

"work done over time" is the saying.

So, if your building a DD car, all out giant ports isnt really what it takes to make a zippy car at 2000-4000 rpm's. Adversly, if you plan to rev to 9,000 RPM's your going to need bigger ports to allow.

For an all out racecar sure, the bigger the better for the most part. Daily driven cars though- well thats another story all together.


its just like the arguement of gutting dual runners vs the gained torque on the low end. Its an opinion based arguement, based on what you plan to do with the car.




And please, quite calling anything G22. Honda never made a "G series" anything..

Last edited by toycar; 08-16-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:23 AM   #17
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The VTEC system on the F22B1 is much different than the VTEC system found on the H22A or DOHC B series engines. It offers a different cam profile for the intake valves only. In stock form, that's fine. In modified form, it will flow in more than it flows out. My biggest issue with the F22B1 isn't when it's in stock form, compared to a stock F22A. My issue is when both are modified. The F22A is a much better choice for modification.

The port design in the F22B1 is cramped, thanks to the VTEC system's implementation. The valve angle is also inferior to the F22A.


I'm not saying that the F22B1 head doesn't have potential. ANY engine has potential with enough money put into it. It's just senseless to rip out a perfectly good F22A (engine or head) to install an F22B1 (engine or head.)


The information that I'm repeating comes from Bisimoto, who has discussed it at length on this site and others (I'm not claiming to be an expert... just claiming to have read the work of an expert that I trust!)




And THANK YOU for the support on the "G22" crap!
Although Honda does indeed have a G series (I wouldn't mind the "G22" garbage if there were no such thing.) The G series is what comes in the Acura Vigor and 2.5TL here in the US. It's a 5 cylinder engine (G25. There was a G20 in other countries). Longitudinally mounted, though still FWD... I don't get it.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:25 AM   #18
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this thread has left "beginner technical/performance" imo. lol

^ beat me to it, but FYI

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_G_engine

which is actually another good reason not to call that hybrid a "g series". It's a clever way to define it though, even if it's not precise.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
The VTEC system on the F22B1 is much different than the VTEC system found on the H22A or DOHC B series engines. It offers a different cam profile for the intake valves only. In stock form, that's fine. In modified form, it will flow in more than it flows out. My biggest issue with the F22B1 isn't when it's in stock form, compared to a stock F22A. My issue is when both are modified. The F22A is a much better choice for modification.

The port design in the F22B1 is cramped, thanks to the VTEC system's implementation. The valve angle is also inferior to the F22A.


I'm not saying that the F22B1 head doesn't have potential. ANY engine has potential with enough money put into it. It's just senseless to rip out a perfectly good F22A (engine or head) to install an F22B1 (engine or head.)


The information that I'm repeating comes from Bisimoto, who has discussed it at length on this site and others (I'm not claiming to be an expert... just claiming to have read the work of an expert that I trust!)
I agree that the modified potential of the A-series head is waaay better. Bisi, also sent me an email like 2,000 words long explaining the pro's/cons, and in the end I was convinced for racing the A-series head is better, I just don't understand the bad wrap the b1 gets for a turbo daily.

I think the potential is there.
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Old 08-16-2011, 11:37 AM   #20
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It's there... just not a worthwhile swap when a perfectly good F22A is present. The amount of money spent on getting an F22B1 working well would cover at least half of a decent budget turbo setup. And a headswap introduces a whole host of potential problems... though the F22A and F22B blocks are very similar, so fitment isn't really an issue. The problems come from an amateur piecing together a hybrid engine, and then throwing a turbo at it.

Also, the DSM turbo manifold that is so popular among F22A users isn't an option with the F22B1/2, due to the port design 0-00-0.

Honestly, every engine we can easily put in our cars can be boosted to make more than enough power for a street-driven car in stock form (until the ringlands break, or some catastrophic event occurs due to poor tuning or abuse.) 250-300whp is PLENTY of power for a daily-driven FWD car, especially one with an open differential, and every one of the popular engines can do that.
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