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Old 12-26-2014, 04:24 PM   #1
DGOfTheCentury
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Talking F22b1 Forged Piston Decision

Hi there...going to try to make this quick since I'm new. I have a F22b1 block with a 85mm bore...I found forged pistons for the engine. However I have two choices I am torn between, when it comes to engine reliability. Two different bore sized pistons, one is the standard 85mm, the other being 85.5mm both at the same compression. Now currently I am only trying to build a tough NA engine. Although in the future I want to run 15lbs boost. Would .5mm over...give me a stronger ringland? Or should I just get the standard size at 85mm. I have heard weak ring lands for Hondas recently so I just want to be able to do it right.
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Old 12-26-2014, 08:09 PM   #2
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If you are going with forged piston ring lands are not the issue. What bore you choose may depend on the condition of your cylinder bore. If they require any sort of rework you will not use stock 85mm.

Are these forged or cast pistons that you are looking at? Most of the cheaper ebay pistons are of the weaker cast varieties.
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Old 12-26-2014, 09:14 PM   #3
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If you're looking to build a respectable N/A car now with considerations for boost in the future, look into Bisimoto's piston and rod kit. It uses H22A rods and 29mm compression-height DSM pistons to improve the rod-stroke ratio and bump compression to 9.3:1. While that is not much of an improvement for an N/A build, it is a slight boost over stock with plenty of room for boost later on.

Tuning has come a long way these days and many tuners are able to tune even high-compression engines for respectable turbo applications. It all comes down to what your budget is, who you plan to have tune it (as well as their chosen software), and what the application for this build will be. The main point is that if you're considering turbocharging the car in the future, regardless of your desired power level, upgrade to forged pistons now.

Also, the pressure alone is not a telling figure. 15 psi on a 14B is a lot different than 15 psi on a PT6266.
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Old 12-30-2014, 01:43 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GhostAccord View Post
If you are going with forged piston ring lands are not the issue. What bore you choose may depend on the condition of your cylinder bore. If they require any sort of rework you will not use stock 85mm.

Are these forged or cast pistons that you are looking at? Most of the cheaper ebay pistons are of the weaker cast varieties.
I want to use a Wiseco forged piston at either 85.5mm or 85mm bore which is the choice I am torn between. I want to keep the stock bore at 85mm. I want my cylinder walls as strong as possible. I have not seen the cylinder walls of the motor, but they should be in good condition, I daily this car with no issues.

85mm bore 9.0:1-
https://www.raceeng.com/p-31047-wise...t-526p85r.aspx
85.5mm bore: 9.0:1-
https://www.raceeng.com/p-31046-wise...-526p855r.aspx

Sorry it took so long, I thought I would get an email notification of some sort.
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Old 12-30-2014, 01:53 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarrett View Post
If you're looking to build a respectable N/A car now with considerations for boost in the future, look into Bisimoto's piston and rod kit. It uses H22A rods and 29mm compression-height DSM pistons to improve the rod-stroke ratio and bump compression to 9.3:1. While that is not much of an improvement for an N/A build, it is a slight boost over stock with plenty of room for boost later on.

Tuning has come a long way these days and many tuners are able to tune even high-compression engines for respectable turbo applications. It all comes down to what your budget is, who you plan to have tune it (as well as their chosen software), and what the application for this build will be. The main point is that if you're considering turbocharging the car in the future, regardless of your desired power level, upgrade to forged pistons now.

Also, the pressure alone is not a telling figure. 15 psi on a 14B is a lot different than 15 psi on a PT6266.
I do not want to run mismatch parts unless I absolutely have to. Nor do I want a higher compression than 9.0:1 give or take, I do not want detonation
As far as I am concerned the stock motor can run 5-10lb boost no problem...but I know me, I would beat the shit out of it
So tht is the only reason I am considering forged internals.
Because quite literally I was just going to rebuild motor and slap a turbo on it in my first mind.
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Old 12-30-2014, 03:32 PM   #6
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Mismatched parts? Dimensions are just numbers. If a GM LS3 has valve springs that are the same dimensions as an F22A (they're not) then who cares what they were for? But that's not the point. I'm telling you that Bisimoto sells what you're looking for in a package. They're going to tell you that it's "custom", but the parts are just borrowed from the applications I gave you before.

Also, 9.3:1 is perfectly safe for a turbo application. If you have a number that you feel like you have to be under for detonation's sake, then it sounds like you're reading too many Super Street magazines from 2003.

And what is 5-10 psi without knowing the size of compressor we're talking about? A bicycle and an 18-wheeler can both have tires inflated to 50 psi. However, you know that the 18-wheeler has a much higher volume of air in the tire. That's a static example whereas a turbocharger is fluid, but the concept is the same.

I will also disagree with your confidence in the F22A/B's ability to withstand boost as easily as you think. Let's assume your "5 psi" mark is 225whp. Your ringlands on the factory pistons will fail. Whether or not it happens soon after you install the turbocharger or not is anyone's guess. However, it will fail. This is the importance of forged pistons.
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Old 12-30-2014, 06:22 PM   #7
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Keep in mind also that all F series engines have open deck blocks. This isn't an issue until you get to higher boost, or very high RPM N/A builds... but there comes a point where the block design becomes a weakness in itself. If your future turbo plans include making over 400whp (which, quite honestly, is overkill on a lightweight FWD car, IMO...) then you'd be wise to look into resleeving the block when you build it. Better to do it now and get it out of the way, than to have to rebuild the whole thing again later on.

As for compression ratio and turbo... the necessity for a low compression ratio is pretty oldschool. These days, tuning options (even budget options, such as Crome) offer a good deal of control, allowing you to run a considerably higher compression ratio than was possible 15 years ago (which is when many of our "rules of thumb" originated.) Not that 9.0:1 is all that low (still higher than stock), or that 9.3:1 is all that high (as Jarrett said, still totally safe for boost...) These days, a competent tuner could boost an engine that's 11.1:1 or higher. Lower compression just gives a greater threshold for error.

Be careful... when you start telling the people you're asking for advice what can and can't be done (the stock engine should NEVER be boosted, unless you're cool with blowing it up...) If the knowledgeable people on this site get the feeling that you're going to ignore them, they won't waste their time offering their guidance.
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Old 12-31-2014, 12:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Keep in mind also that all F series engines have open deck blocks. This isn't an issue until you get to higher boost, or very high RPM N/A builds... but there comes a point where the block design becomes a weakness in itself. If your future turbo plans include making over 400whp (which, quite honestly, is overkill on a lightweight FWD car, IMO...) then you'd be wise to look into resleeving the block when you build it. Better to do it now and get it out of the way, than to have to rebuild the whole thing again later on.

As for compression ratio and turbo... the necessity for a low compression ratio is pretty oldschool. These days, tuning options (even budget options, such as Crome) offer a good deal of control, allowing you to run a considerably higher compression ratio than was possible 15 years ago (which is when many of our "rules of thumb" originated.) Not that 9.0:1 is all that low (still higher than stock), or that 9.3:1 is all that high (as Jarrett said, still totally safe for boost...) These days, a competent tuner could boost an engine that's 11.1:1 or higher. Lower compression just gives a greater threshold for error.

Be careful... when you start telling the people you're asking for advice what can and can't be done (the stock engine should NEVER be boosted, unless you're cool with blowing it up...) If the knowledgeable people on this site get the feeling that you're going to ignore them, they won't waste their time offering their guidance.
Please I just need some help selecting these pistons...this car will not be a race car...just a DD...I'm not trying to belittle you guys at all, my engine knowledge at the most is take it apart put it back together (things get blurry when people start talking numbers other than torque specs lol), I am more than sure I can manage a piston and rod upgrade...I have a rebuild kit for the engine so I thought why not upgrade the pistons and rods in the process...


Could the wiseco 85mm 9.0:1 be a go? BTW I purchased the sleeve kit with the rebuild kit...the brace shaped like the cylinder walls tht goes in between the cylinders and the block right? Also when i said mismatch parts i did nlt mean it was bad, i just do not feel assured tht things will fit correctly. The last thing i want to do is be returning something i bought from the internet. Some day I hope to get over tht.


As for the compression ratio there is a wiseco 85mm 11.1:1 compression piston, but I am not prepared for such an upgrade (as far as i am concerned tht would require p28 chipped, new cams, injectors, preferred crank forged, and some other stuff i forget). As for the f22b1 potential i just heard about tht from another forum, thts why I said "as far as I am concerned" meaning I could be wrong...once again Thx for the assistance


I could actually use a little bit of schooling on psi to turbine size applications, because I bought everything for the forced induction except the turbo...I have no idea which one to buy, they only seem to be listed by A/R which I looked up and tht led me virtually nowhere.


So far I am enjoying the forum...this is the first forum I actually considered being a member of
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Old 12-31-2014, 01:10 AM   #9
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Mismatched parts? Dimensions are just numbers. If a GM LS3 has valve springs that are the same dimensions as an F22A (they're not) then who cares what they were for? But that's not the point. I'm telling you that Bisimoto sells what you're looking for in a package. They're going to tell you that it's "custom", but the parts are just borrowed from the applications I gave you before.

Also, 9.3:1 is perfectly safe for a turbo application. If you have a number that you feel like you have to be under for detonation's sake, then it sounds like you're reading too many Super Street magazines from 2003.

And what is 5-10 psi without knowing the size of compressor we're talking about? A bicycle and an 18-wheeler can both have tires inflated to 50 psi. However, you know that the 18-wheeler has a much higher volume of air in the tire. That's a static example whereas a turbocharger is fluid, but the concept is the same.

I will also disagree with your confidence in the F22A/B's ability to withstand boost as easily as you think. Let's assume your "5 psi" mark is 225whp. Your ringlands on the factory pistons will fail. Whether or not it happens soon after you install the turbocharger or not is anyone's guess. However, it will fail. This is the importance of forged pistons.
Checked out the Bisimoto kit...looks very appealing however the bore size is 86mm...I would prefer not to have to bore the walls...but since you seem confident in the possibility I will talk to the machine shop about it.. See what they think, because at the end of the day they will be doing it lol...in the mean time I will see what else bisimoto has to offer because I have not heard of them before
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Old 12-31-2014, 08:58 AM   #10
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I thought Bisi got out of the Honda game? Are these leftover parts or does he still sell all his original F series parts?
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Old 12-31-2014, 09:30 AM   #11
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I had my cylinders bored in my F20B block at American Engine and Grinding in downtown Houston. They took longer than I'd had preferred, but did top notch work. Their prices are $40 per cylinder and they matched the bores to the specs I gave them when I took my pistons in.

Always give the machine shop the pistons before having them do the work.
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:01 AM   #12
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Now there is a catch to buying pistons before checking out the cylinders. If you are looking to buy stock sized pistons and the cylinders do end up requiring even just a little bit of work... Now you may not be able to get the piston to wall clearance that you wanted.

I realize that we are talking fractions of an inch. But that's all it takes to have a skirt or ring land wear sooner due to rocking/piston slap, every fraction counts in the end. As much of a PITA that it may be. It is better to check the bore before you buy the pistons. Specially if you are looking at staying stock bore.
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:36 AM   #13
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Very true. My recommendation was for the 86mm pistons that require an overbore either way, but a good policy to live by, nonetheless.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:48 PM   #14
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Ok so I will have the machine shop take a look at the block...I'm sending both the head and the block in for inspection and parts cleaning then I will go from there with the pistons...got my new tool set in today as well craftsmen's 309pc


One last question before I attempt to bring this topic to a close...I saw on bisimotos website, a 3 layer steel head gasket...I was considering getting tht one instead of the flimsy one tht came with my rebuild kit....would tht be a good idea? Con's pros? Using ARP head studs if tht makes any difference.

BTW I do not live in Texas I'm just from there...I actually live in Florida...I did not know it would do tht...edit time

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Old 12-31-2014, 04:51 PM   #15
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Avoid using that block guard (the brace that goes between the cylinders and the block). They are known to warp cylinders. As long as you're not making crazy power, the stock open deck design will be just fine.
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Old 12-31-2014, 04:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by GhostAccord View Post
Now there is a catch to buying pistons before checking out the cylinders. If you are looking to buy stock sized pistons and the cylinders do end up requiring even just a little bit of work... Now you may not be able to get the piston to wall clearance that you wanted.

I realize that we are talking fractions of an inch. But that's all it takes to have a skirt or ring land wear sooner due to rocking/piston slap, every fraction counts in the end. As much of a PITA that it may be. It is better to check the bore before you buy the pistons. Specially if you are looking at staying stock bore.
For the not so knowledgable (I just learned about this myself a few months ago), forged pistons expand more as they get hot than cast pistons. This makes the piston-to-cylinder wall clearance much more important with forged pistons that with cast pistons. In fact, what I read before is that you should get the forged pistons first, then send the pistons to the machine shop with the block so that they can bore the cylinders to exactly match the piston size.
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Old 12-31-2014, 09:50 PM   #17
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For the not so knowledgable (I just learned about this myself a few months ago), forged pistons expand more as they get hot than cast pistons. This makes the piston-to-cylinder wall clearance much more important with forged pistons that with cast pistons. In fact, what I read before is that you should get the forged pistons first, then send the pistons to the machine shop with the block so that they can bore the cylinders to exactly match the piston size.

Thank you for bringing that up..... also a note, there are a couple different alloys in use with aftermarket forged pistons. Some expand less than others... depending on the composition.... Not all forged pistons are the same, 2618 vs. 4032 are comon forged Aluminum Alloy pistons!

I do realize that you need to have the cylinder bores sized to your pistons.... but it's always nice to have your block checked first before you buy a particular size piston...specially if that size is stock.... that's all I am saying.

Here is a hypothetical..... What happens if you buy 85mm forged pistons and you find out from the machine shop that your stock 85mm bores need to be bored out to 85.25mm, 85.5mm or 86mm? Even .25mm is a hell of a lot for a forged piston to make up in it's coefficient of thermal expansion. My Forged Wiseco pistons require only a 0.0762mm piston to wall clearance. If that isn't as much as you need to remove, you now have to take the pistons back and buy something over sized......
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:00 PM   #18
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Greats points...so definitely taking the block and head first is now my priority..
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Old 12-31-2014, 10:07 PM   #19
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Low silcon pistons vs. high silicon pistons.

DGOfTheCentury, check out the book "Honda/Acura Engine Performance" by Mike Kojima. It's old, lots of the info is fairly outdated, and it focuses mainly on B and D series engines... but there's still a TON of useful info in there, including a good deal of technical information regarding forged internals and turbocharging. It's where I got my start, and I have yet to meet anyone who read through that book that made a fool of themselves on a forum Even if you have a decent understanding of how engines work, there's bound to be a few new bits of information you don't know in there. I strongly recommend picking up a copy.
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Old 01-02-2015, 01:22 AM   #20
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Low silcon pistons vs. high silicon pistons.

DGOfTheCentury, check out the book "Honda/Acura Engine Performance" by Mike Kojima. It's old, lots of the info is fairly outdated, and it focuses mainly on B and D series engines... but there's still a TON of useful info in there, including a good deal of technical information regarding forged internals and turbocharging. It's where I got my start, and I have yet to meet anyone who read through that book that made a fool of themselves on a forum Even if you have a decent understanding of how engines work, there's bound to be a few new bits of information you don't know in there. I strongly recommend picking up a copy.
i will be checking out tht book...anymore you would like to recommend? i have been learning for like 6yrs from my dad and "trial and error". i have a 98 corolla i play with every now and then as well.

I recently bought this 91 accord and i managed the f22b1 swap on a POA, because the f22a was junk so i have a great confidence in my potential, i just need to learn numbers and yield of particular modifications.

CB7s are my first favorite Honda, EG hatch being the second, have yet to own one though (people here sale them like they have gold chassis)
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