14b turbo

[toycar]

Hello community;


I have been reading from alot of posters about the heat issue w/a 14b turbo, and that they are too hot running and that they can damage your engine because they are too small etc...

ON the contrary, people have been reliably modding their DSM's with this upgrade for a long time. The turbo flows 405 cfm, and has a td05 housing(Same as a 16g) and is a much better turbo then the t25 that 2g's came with, or adversely the 13b that the autos came with.

So I suppose I dont understand where you guys think this turbo sucks for the 2.2 liter accord. Ive asked, but not really gotten any solid responses. The compressor mapping for the turbo ligns up great with the motors natural CFM's, and I haven't been hearing the right kind of complaints about the turbo to think its the turbo thats giving you guys the problem. If the turbo was too small for the engine, it wouldn't hold boost through your pull. It would drop boost at a higher RPM and build boost almost instantly. Similar to the T-25 on a 2g DSM. It runs out of turbo in stock form, boost drops or starts dropping around 6000RPM. So I guess what Im getting at, is maybe theres some miss information going around here.

I have been a DSM guy for 10+ years, but am doing a CB currently for a fun DD. As Ive been learning about these cars, this was something that Im just baffled by. The 14b is a great turbo. I have as well as many others have had great luck w/a 14b.

I think that whats going on here is too many people on this forum think you dont need to run the coolant lines on the 14b, thus creating a heater in your engine, and creating the heat soak issues Im reading you guys talk about. Think about it like this;

People run the 14b on 14-20psi, daily. Their DSM is a gas, combustion engine just the same. Most of us running a turbo on a CB have a front mount intercooler, as opposed to a side mount the DSM comes with. SO what do you guys suppose is the difference from the DSM crowd that runs a 14b all day long without any heat issues and have tons of miles of regular driving, where as people in this forum think the 14b could lead to catastrophe in an accord.

I think its worth pointing out that a turbo is just a compressor, thats it. So, its not going to perform that drastically different, over .2 liters of displacement or the tiny bit of extra compression. Nope, not at all. In fact, when you replace the stock pistons with aftermarket upgrades on a DSM they come 9/10 times in 8:8.1 compression, the same as a CB. So, all that leaves is the .2 liters of displacement, and the idea that nobody is COOLING their turbo.

Lets remember here, cooling turbo=getting rid of the heat. Not just running coolant to the turbo, the coolant then travels to the radiator remember, then the heat is removed from the coolant. If you dont REMOVE the heat, it has an opportunity to build up, gradually getting hotter.

The displacement difference comes from the length of the stroke, not the size of the bore. So, dwell times are different, but minimal at best. All that would do for you is sloww down the boost spooling, not over heat the turbo, and a little ignition tuning/timing would account for any differences in dwell times.

Plus, a CB only rev's to 6500 or so and the DSM rev's over 7200 sometimes up to 7500.


So, after scaveging all of my memory, using all of my knowledge, doing the math and comparing CFM's of the two motors I just dont understand why the hell so many people talk poorly about the 14b on this platform/forum. I honestly believe some of you just arent using it correctly.

Someone, please prove me wrong....


Theres enough SMART people on this site to show me some REAL SCIENCE that supports your guys' claims. I hate to think that all this hype is just a bunch of repeated miss-information.

[deevergote]

As one of the biggest proponents of the "14b is too small" train of thought, I honestly have to say that your argument has considerable merit.

Do you have any compressor maps to compare to the F22A's flow capabilty, to illustrate what you mentioned regarding that? I'm asking for that not as a challenge to you, but as concrete evidence to support your claim. This is the best argument FOR the 14b that I have ever seen on this site, and if it can be substantiated a bit further, it may change the way this community thinks overall.


I truly don't think I could present an argument that would hold up against yours. My belief was based on 1) the smaller displacement of the 4G63, and 2) the impression that one of the first things DSM tuners do is chuck that 14b for a larger turbo. Yoiur arguments against the displacement issue are strong, and since you come from the DSM world, you would know better than I regarding the use of the 14b within that community...


It would be nice if we really could start supporting the 14b again, as they are so much cheaper and easier to find than the big 16G!

[toycar]

The F22A6 has a displacement of 2156 cubic centimeters or 132 cubic inches, and was listed as a 2.2-liter engine. To find the CFM of your engine, you use the cubic inches multiplied by RPM(6500), and then divide by 3456.

I dont remember exactly why its 3456, but heres a copy/pasted write up on finding CFM from another site, and there are TONS of sites that use the same algorithm for finding CFM of an engine.

*Note-this formula does not account for combustion rate of exchange(Molecules density after combustion) or variable valve timing. I assumed it was safe to use because we dont run a speed density setup, and the a6 in question does not enjoy variable valve timing.

This was posted on a local site, and I find its a good informative piece so here ya go!

Compressor Selection

When using the formula's below, you will need to use compressor flow maps and work with the formulas until you size the compressor that will work for your application. Compressor flow maps are available from the manufacturer, or do a search on the web, you'll find that they are readily available. On the flow maps, the airflow requirements should fall somewhere between the surge line and the 60% efficiency line, the goal should be to get in the peak efficiency range at the point of your power peak. In this article I will walk through an example as I explain it, once you understand it, you can get the the formula's in the Sizing Formula's tech article for quicker reference.

Engine Airflow Requirements

In order to select a turbocharger, you must know how much air it must flow to reach your goal. You first need to figure the cubic feet per minute of air flowing through the engine at maximum rpm. The the formula to to this for a 4 stroke engine is:

(CID × RPM) ÷3456 = CFM

For a 2 stroke you divide by 1728 rather than 3456. Lets assume that you are turbocharging a 350 cubic inch engine That will redline at 6000 rpm.

(350 × 6000) ÷ 3456 = 607.6 CFM

The engine will flow 607.6 CFM of air assuming a 100% volumetric efficiency. Most street engines will have an 80-90% VE, so the CFM will need to be adjusted. Lets assume our 350 has an 85% VE.

607.6 × 0.85 = 516.5 CFM

Our 350 will actually flow 516.5 CFM with an 85% VE.

So using that formula you find that the f22a6 flows 248.26 cfm in a natural aspiration configuration.




As you can see, at 248 CFM naturally aspirated, the f22a6 is well fitted for this particular turbocharger, and it certainly isnt too small, atleast in terms of flow map comparison(s).

I suppose I didnt take into account for volumetric efficiency either, so the actual CFM would vary due to various restrictions in your vehicle path(And would greatly vary on custom setups, ie manifold(s), port and polish work, TB's, cams etc.)

[19dabeast85]

I have never understood a turbo mapping chart.....care to elaborate how to "read" one?

Assuming a VE of 80%, 85%, 90% we get CFM's of:

198, 210, and 222 respectively @6,500. fwiw (at least I can do math! )

[deevergote]

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbob...o_tech103.html

So he's not spoonfeeding us every bit of information... There are articles that are a little less in-depth to be found on various forums, but this one covers it all, and coming from Garrett, I trust its validity completely.



Anyway, I truly cannot argue with the logic presented here in defense of the 14b. I'm going to have to digest it better when I get home from work, but at a glance, everything seems to be spot on.
Looks like the 14b is back on the menu!

I'll stop telling people they'll nuke their engine with it... and just concentrate on preaching the importance of tuning (since improper tuning will nuke the engine regardless of how suitable the other parts are!)

[19dabeast85]

Thanks Deev, sorry for being lazy but I figured the beginner section could use some good info/links in this thread hence my question!

[speedfr3ak]

if ur using a f its alright even if it blows rebuild or buy new 250 $ engine i could try many things i just picked up a 93 coupe ill have that setup on it ill post pics later ..........................btw no rust comes with flushie and fogs ehhhhh............................................ ...All info i post is from trial and error no reading than telling u what i read and act like i kno what im talking about 14b been on menu except for u few followers who follow the READER! DO YA OWN THING PEEEPSSS!!!........................I HAD A TURBO MIATA sc corrado and a 93 hatch with a b18 swap with a 14b it was even reliable 8lbs of boost nothin crazy

[deevergote]

The arguments in the posts made by toycar are good enough to thoroughly change my mind. arguments such as yours, speedfr3ak, are part of the reason I was against the 14b in the first place. Sadly, in nearly 8 years of operation, this thread is the FIRST thing that justifies the use of the 14b. All other comments are people that can't even string a coherent sentence together saying "it aint blow up my car yet!"
Just because something hasn't done damage yet does not make it a good idea.

Using a compressor map and understanding the flow capabilities of the engine that the turbo is going on...THAT makes it a good idea!



Also, this thread is about the 14b turbo, not your new car. Congratulations, but please keep it on topic.

[LoDollar92LX]

very informative post man. its not so much the turbo, but the mickey mouse tuning or lack thereof that kills motors. I boosted a f22 prelude last year with a dsm t25 and a fmic and tuned it on 8lbs. A year later its still running awesome! The 14b is bigger then the t25 by quite a bit also, so with a proper tune, it should work just fine.

[toycar]

Right on, I feel like I have contributed something to the community!!

[speedfr3ak]

ok my bad, jus wanted to share i jus was confused i used the 14b many times usally on 1.6 or 1.8l engines never on any thing bigger but when i did i fount it to be a fine combo.I wouldnt use it it on a h series or a motor worth money but a 200000 mile f22 why not man that engine is gone any way mite as well have a LIL FUN jus a lil but its all good ill start a new post with my new car and show u my setup peace deeve i hope u have no hard feelings toward me we always dont see eye to eye,i have off all week so im headin to garage do some work and take pics . woooooo hoooooooo .............<>

[19dabeast85]

ok my bad, jus wanted to share i jus was confused i used the 14b many times usally on 1.6 or 1.8l engines never on any thing bigger but when i did i fount it to be a fine combo.I wouldnt use it it on a h series or a motor worth money but a 200000 mile f22 why not man that engine is gone any way mite as well have a LIL FUN jus a lil but its all good ill start a new post with my new car and show u my setup peace deeve i hope u have no hard feelings toward me we always dont see eye to eye,i have off all week so im headin to garage do some work and take pics . woooooo hoooooooo .............<>

I don't want to get off topic but must say that nobody should be "just turboing for fun" and I don't think that is the OP's intent. If I can't see my engine lasting 100k+ miles after a modification I don't do the modification. No sane person would go to the trouble to PROPERLY install a turbo and PROPERLY tune it expecting the engine to fail prematurely.

BTW, 200k miles is about mid-life for a well maintained f22, nowhere close to "gone".

On another note, I just learned ALOT from the Garrett website, the 14b should be good for 300whp on a 6,500rpm redline F22 safely tuned with longevity in mind and pushing 15-18 psi depending on altitude. Opens up the door for alot of people to safely turbo on a budget and get a really fun daily driver!

[toycar]

Opens up the door for alot of people to safely turbo on a budget and get a really fun daily driver!

This comment put a smile on my face! Glad I could help!

[speedfr3ak]

I understand that i never just went turbo for FUN I DO IT to go fast my man not to go to grocery store in record timing......HERES UR DIAPERS WIFE IN 2.3 SEC ...............CHEAHHHHH ...............................You took my LiL FUN thing the wrong way but its all good have fun peeps enjoy!

[toycar]

I understand that i never just went turbo for FUN I DO IT to go fast my man not to go to grocery store in record timing......HERES UR DIAPERS WIFE IN 2.3 SEC ...............CHEAHHHHH ...............................You took my LiL FUN thing the wrong way but its all good have fun peeps enjoy!

You should only build a turbo engine for performance-based on your personaly goals.

If you dont know anything about the following;
tuning, performance, pre-detonation, ignition timing, air/fuel mixtures, what it means to go lean vs rich, know how to read a turbo compressor map(no offense to the other guy), understand what dwell times are, comprehend what CFM of a motor has to do with volumetric efficiency, or gather the idea that people can build a turbo car that doesnt explode, that there really is a SCIENCE to it-

Then you should really work on your manors, learn how to type/spell and explore the search function. Accountability is the first step to learning anything. At some point, your going to understand why no one takes you seriously or wants to give you good advice on your "Projects". You type like you talk, and people cant understand your slang/tone of voice VIA the internet.



Jesus