Any Other Forged Piston Options?

[GTRON]

Here's my cost breakdown with some explanation:

Expect to pay $30-40 per cylinder for boring. This should only d done with pistons in hand. Throw another $20-30 on top for resurfacing the deck. $200 (on the high end of what a small machine shop will charge)

Pistons are around $500-600.

The forged Chinese rods are a controversial topic, but I've seen plenty of reports from people on many different types of car forums that had had great luck with them. I've seen a Honda-Tech post where someone weighed them out and they were all withing 1.5 grams of each other. Not bad considering they come with nice ARP hardware for $250. A little more for even better ARP hardware. Let's say $300.

The engine is $300 if you can buy it in person. Sell whatever you want off of that if it's not the block and rotating assembly itself.

Bearings will run you about $150 if you get ACL, or $200 if you buy them in the exact sizes needed from Honda.

So far we're at $1600 with everything. You can spend $600 more and get Crower F23A rods, or budget about $200 more for balancing with the clutch and pulley.

The reason for the F23A over the F22A is just the ability to buy low-mileage units for cheap. The extra displacement is just a low-end torque bonus.

So I grab a f23 block and crankshaft, buy these:

https://thmotorsports.com/i-588310.a...FUW5wAodryMPMQ

and these

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HONDA-ACURA-...5TwXtP&vxp=mtr
(Is there even any need for me to upgrade to nicer ARP hardware with my powergoal of 350?)

Are these supposed to be $16?!
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ACL-5M1957A-...xYnO9I&vxp=mtr

Get the F23 block bored to 87mm (stock is 86mm right?), get the head resurfaced, and slap the F22 head on it? It's all compatible, bolt on?

[Jarrett]

More or less, yes. However, I'm not suggesting that you get just the block and crank. The F23A girdle is specific to that engine, as well as the windage tray. Just get the whole thing and sell off what you don't use. Hell, we (myself very included) always suggest the F22A head to be installed back onto this block, but that's most likely because we're a CB forum and that's what we like. Using the whole engine is an option to. There's swap information on this site, if you're interested. The benefit to the PT3 F22A head is that your manifolds and wiring will still fit perfectly. The F23A swap isn't much more difficult.

You'll need to put the pistons in the bore the opposite way. Because those pistons come from an engine that spins in the reverse direction, the pin offset favors the other skirt side. It's unnoticeable to your eye, but it's there. It's designed to reduce stress when the rod changes direction after TDC.

Those bearings are super cheap. Either way, I don't think they're ACL's higher end bearing. Once you've built a few engines, you'll see how nice it is to have OEM Honda bearings that are so precise in sizing. Being able to free spin a crankshaft when the mains are torqued down is an awesome feeling.

And no, the nicer ARP hardware is unnecessary for your application.

Something else I was thinking would be to buy two F23A engines when you do. Boost your current engine to failure and you'll still have an F23A in reserve to swap in that's low-mileage. Just buys you more time to build another one.

[deevergote]

Though it's not recommended, people do 5 psi on stock internals with no issues all the time.

People blow up more often than not, too. Read your signature.
If this is your only car, it is a VERY bad idea to risk blowing it up because you're impatient. Take a little longer, do it right. Jarrett's advice is probably the best you're going to get in this regard... cheapest and most reliable combined.

What do you mean by a "cheap FMU"? The ONLY way to ensure you don't blow your stock 25 year old engine in the first few days of driving it (aside from having some sort of crazy good luck) is to have an ECU that is tuned extremely well. Even then, it's likely just a matter of time. Anything less is probably going to go boom super quick!

What turbo setup are you considering? Building your own, or buying a kit?

[Jarrett]

I forgot to touch on the FMU point. Don't. That's archaic, unreliable, inaccurate and much less effective than a properly-tuned ECU with decent fuel injectors and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

[deevergote]

He's still following that thread from 2002/2006, it seems. Why is it that there can be 10 people saying how to do something the correct way, and why the incorrect way is a VERY bad idea... but one person saying otherwise is enough to dismiss all the sensible talk? I'll never understand it.

GTRON, you are trying to cut costs by using cheap or stock rods. You don't want to pay a machine shop to ensure your cylinders are round. You are clearly trying to save money with this build. By halfassing things as much as you seem to intend, you are going to spend considerably MORE money completing this project when something goes wrong. Doing things on a budget is fine, but there are certain things that you simply cannot ignore. Certain things aren't worth the risk.
Address your internals. Address your engine management. Address your fuel delivery. Those three things are the key points. If you cut too many corners, you'll end up with a paperweight of an engine, and much of your investment (I use that term loosely) will be wasted.
You can get a cheap turbo (it may come apart and destroy your engine, but I'd say that's fairly unlikely.) You can get cheap piping. You can get a cheap intercooler. You should probably get a quality external wastegate, however.

Buy your forged pistons. Have a machine shop refresh your block. Buy quality injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. Find a tuner and buy whatever engine management system they are familiar with (a chipped and tuned P06 ECU would suffice, if your tuner knows how to use any of the common software.)


If you boost your stock engine with nothing but an archaic FMU, you WILL blow it up. Probably in a couple of weeks. Do you have a backup vehicle? Do you need your car to get to where you need to go? Do you have a place to store a non-running vehicle?
I've seen posts like this before. Usually, they end with "FS 92 Accord. $500. I blew my engine and I don't have the time or money to fix it. Somebody take it before I send it to the scrap yard! Comes with spare engine and turbo parts."

[Crankshaft]

As I told someone else on here before; if you have patience and a well planned out build you CAN save money, usually buying parts from those who didn't plan or wanted to wait and end up doing part outs. I learned one thing first hand, messing around with your only car is a very bad idea; I recall having to stay up until 2-3 am trying to get my car running because it was my only mode of transportation. Don't rush and you will see there are plenty things you have not taken into consideration on your current plan.

[deevergote]

Even when you plan carefully, unexpected expenses always arise. A carefully planned $2500 project will likely end up costing over $3000 after you purchase unexpected tools, seals, fluids, replacement parts for things you break or discover broken...
I can't remember the last time I did any project (on my car, on my house, on my computer...) where I didn't rush to the internet, AutoZone, Best Buy, Home Depot, etc... to buy something I didn't realize I needed until the last second.

[GTRON]

People blow up more often than not, too. Read your signature.
If this is your only car, it is a VERY bad idea to risk blowing it up because you're impatient. Take a little longer, do it right. Jarrett's advice is probably the best you're going to get in this regard... cheapest and most reliable combined.

What do you mean by a "cheap FMU"? The ONLY way to ensure you don't blow your stock 25 year old engine in the first few days of driving it (aside from having some sort of crazy good luck) is to have an ECU that is tuned extremely well. Even then, it's likely just a matter of time. Anything less is probably going to go boom super quick!

What turbo setup are you considering? Building your own, or buying a kit?

Ok, might scrap the FMU idea.
But my ideas for a cheap build (on stock internals) are from this youtube series from a guy, who seems to know what he's doing. He has had his cheap eBay setup (with a cheap FMU) running great for over 2 years now. Sure it's a newer engine that might handle boost a little better than a 25-26 year old F22a, but I think his has even more miles on it than mine does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AgUE09YSbc (Off topic sidenote, I'm totally going to buy a turbo accord badge )

I really don't even know how all this ECU crap works yet, LOL. Probably need to do research on that sometime, seems like Hondata's the way to go these days.

I don't think you'll like what I'm planning on doing for turbo setup .
Probably a lot of eBay stuff, here's a collection of stuff I'm working on.
http://www.ebay.com/cln/gtron455/199...o/385920781018
Nothing's official, I don't even know what size turbo I want/need.
Advice and rebuking encouraged.

[GTRON]

More or less, yes. However, I'm not suggesting that you get just the block and crank. The F23A girdle is specific to that engine, as well as the windage tray. Just get the whole thing and sell off what you don't use. Hell, we (myself very included) always suggest the F22A head to be installed back onto this block, but that's most likely because we're a CB forum and that's what we like. Using the whole engine is an option to. There's swap information on this site, if you're interested. The benefit to the PT3 F22A head is that your manifolds and wiring will still fit perfectly. The F23A swap isn't much more difficult.

You'll need to put the pistons in the bore the opposite way. Because those pistons come from an engine that spins in the reverse direction, the pin offset favors the other skirt side. It's unnoticeable to your eye, but it's there. It's designed to reduce stress when the rod changes direction after TDC.

Those bearings are super cheap. Either way, I don't think they're ACL's higher end bearing. Once you've built a few engines, you'll see how nice it is to have OEM Honda bearings that are so precise in sizing. Being able to free spin a crankshaft when the mains are torqued down is an awesome feeling.

And no, the nicer ARP hardware is unnecessary for your application.

Something else I was thinking would be to buy two F23A engines when you do. Boost your current engine to failure and you'll still have an F23A in reserve to swap in that's low-mileage. Just buys you more time to build another one.

I don't know if I'd want to mess with the f23 bottom end, I mean it's not like it's hard to find a F22 block. Sure some more low end torque is always good, but I think it might be just a unnecessary complication, at least for me if you know what I mean. (being a very beginner engine builder )

Say I go the not-recommended route of not boring out my block, would It be necessary to replace the bearings when putting on new rods and pistons? (if the OEM ones are in good condition anyways)

[GTRON]

He's still following that thread from 2002/2006, it seems. Why is it that there can be 10 people saying how to do something the correct way, and why the incorrect way is a VERY bad idea... but one person saying otherwise is enough to dismiss all the sensible talk? I'll never understand it.

GTRON, you are trying to cut costs by using cheap or stock rods. You don't want to pay a machine shop to ensure your cylinders are round. You are clearly trying to save money with this build. By halfassing things as much as you seem to intend, you are going to spend considerably MORE money completing this project when something goes wrong. Doing things on a budget is fine, but there are certain things that you simply cannot ignore. Certain things aren't worth the risk.
Address your internals. Address your engine management. Address your fuel delivery. Those three things are the key points. If you cut too many corners, you'll end up with a paperweight of an engine, and much of your investment (I use that term loosely) will be wasted.
You can get a cheap turbo (it may come apart and destroy your engine, but I'd say that's fairly unlikely.) You can get cheap piping. You can get a cheap intercooler. You should probably get a quality external wastegate, however.

Buy your forged pistons. Have a machine shop refresh your block. Buy quality injectors and an upgraded fuel pump. Find a tuner and buy whatever engine management system they are familiar with (a chipped and tuned P06 ECU would suffice, if your tuner knows how to use any of the common software.)


If you boost your stock engine with nothing but an archaic FMU, you WILL blow it up. Probably in a couple of weeks. Do you have a backup vehicle? Do you need your car to get to where you need to go? Do you have a place to store a non-running vehicle?
I've seen posts like this before. Usually, they end with "FS 92 Accord. $500. I blew my engine and I don't have the time or money to fix it. Somebody take it before I send it to the scrap yard! Comes with spare engine and turbo parts."

Just to rebuttal that first paragraph, there's always a ton of people that know the correct, or sensible way (in theory) to do something, but have never actually done it themselves. Then there's that one person who has actually done it!
I know personally I'm going to lean towards the advice from the person who has actually done it successfully to their car.
Text-book knowledge is sometimes a lot easier to acquire than real-world experience.

As of the turbo, I'm gonna make sure I get one with a warranty of some sort (if possible), and if It blows up there's very little chance stuff is going to somehow travel through an intercooler (and piping) into my engine.
Cheap piping and intercooler is probably going to be the plan (or used, I come across a lot of Honda turbo parts all the time here in KC).

Fuel, what size injectors and fuel pump are we talking for 350HP?

[Rilas]

I would never reuse any of the main or rod bearings ever. I know your trying to cut costs but if nothing else throw in some cheaper ITM bearings or something. I have some ITM bearings in a F22A4 bottom end that have been running good for 6 years now.

[deevergote]

Just to rebuttal that first paragraph, there's always a ton of people that know the correct, or sensible way (in theory) to do something, but have never actually done it themselves. Then there's that one person who has actually done it!
I know personally I'm going to lean towards the advice from the person who has actually done it successfully to their car.
Text-book knowledge is sometimes a lot easier to acquire than real-world experience.

Then I wish you luck.

[GTRON]

I would never reuse any of the main or rod bearings ever. I know your trying to cut costs but if nothing else throw in some cheaper ITM bearings or something. I have some ITM bearings in a F22A4 bottom end that have been running good for 6 years now.

Will do! thanks.

[GTRON]

https://kansascity.craigslist.org/cto/6074603533.html

Man.... Thinking about jumping on some of this stuff....

[wagon-r]

As of the turbo, I'm gonna make sure I get one with a warranty of some sort (if possible), and if It blows up there's very little chance stuff is going to somehow travel through an intercooler (and piping) into my engine.

I hope you understand that if the engine seizes up or the rod lets loose because you didn't properly match the bore to the piston and it damages the turbo, the turbo manufacturer is not going to honor the warranty.

As already carefully explained by deever and others, you are being penny wise and pound foolish. I have rebuilt 5 engines. I'm sure most of the people who are trying to help you have rebuilt far more. Stop being a butthead and take the advice from knowledgable people who are just trying to save you a lot of money and time.