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Old 04-13-2017, 08:27 PM   #1
h22sparkle
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That dodge Demon tho

Man its pretty much over for a minute that this car has pretty much shut alot of folks down in the racing scene when it comes down to drag racing. Out of this world man especially the revealing of the car. I mean this is insane and the car comes in stages and is banned until a racing cage is put in.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:47 AM   #2
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Yea it's insane. It's pretty disorienting when it launches. Closest thing I've felt to it is the Top Thrill at Cedar Point.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:03 AM   #3
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Overrated. Ain't care.

Dodge needs to make something like a Challenger ACR. Lightened and with a handling focus. Then I'll buy one. Sickest looking muscle car of the three, and it's by far the worst performer .

Here's to hoping the next gen will be smaller.
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Old 04-14-2017, 12:17 PM   #4
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Overrated. Ain't care.

Dodge needs to make something like a Challenger ACR. Lightened and with a handling focus. Then I'll buy one. Sickest looking muscle car of the three, and it's by far the worst performer .

Here's to hoping the next gen will be smaller.
The SRT Challenger is handling focused... In the hands of a professional race car driver yea the Challenger doesn't perform as well as the tiny cramped Camaro or the non ergonomic Mustang, but it's still fast. I was at racing school a few weeks ago and I ran one through the 100ft slalom in 6.2 seconds with snow tires, not the Pirelli 3 season tires, which was 0.2 seconds faster than an gutted, caged, S2000 with Bilstiens suspension, track tires, and aero. They're incredibly nimble and stable. Unless your competitively racing the Challenger SRT isn't slower enough than the other cars to matter.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:08 AM   #5
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It's big, heavy, and built on an old platform compared to the competition... but even a base Challenger exceeds the capabilities of the average driver.

I do love that the Demon's power is just so absurdly excessive. The Hellcat's output was crazy enough, and now they've taken it further! The Challenger is being approached as a true muscle car should be. It's big, it's obnoxious, it is utterly American (despite being built on a largely-German platform by an Italian-owned company... ) The Mustang and Camaro haven't ignored the American desire for big screaming V8 power, but the Challenger, especially the Hellcat and Demon, holds most true to the muscle car concept. For that, I love it.

I do believe, however, that having so much power is essentially useless. I have 400hp now, and I can barely use that without breaking the law in the blink of an eye. Double that would be even less usable on public roads! When it comes to all-out drag racing, it's cool... but a serious or even semi-serious drag build is going to make significantly more power. Hell, you could build a 1000+hp fox body for less than half of what you'd likely pay for a new Demon! A quick Google search yielded a result for a 1000hp Ford crate engine for about $26,000 (you could certainly find or build it for less, I'm sure... but I'm going with that for convenience.)

Granted, you could build a 1987 Camaro that could potentially outrun a brand new Ferrari both in a straight line and in the twisties for a mere fraction of the Ferrari's price... but in the end, you will have an old Camaro, not a new Ferrari. When it comes to cars like this, there's always something that will do one thing or another better. The Demon is the best Demon... so if you want that, it's what will fill that particular desire.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:37 AM   #6
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I do believe, however, that having so much power is essentially useless. I have 400hp now, and I can barely use that without breaking the law in the blink of an eye.
Which is why I have yet to put so much as an intake on my 160hp RSX, and put all of my efforts into the handling. In traffic, yeah, the lack of torque is depressing when I'm trying to overtake. But when I go for drives in the canyons, where I'm pretty much just jumping back and forth between 2nd and 3rd gears, I don't feel I would be able to use much more power. The engine as is pulls out of corners just fine (enough to actually be fun), and the suspension is good enough by now that I don't have to use the brakes much and lose momentum anyway.

The big issue with the Challenger for me is the size and weight. I'm interested enough in the car that I've gone looking for as many reviews on the car as I can (text and video), and most of them mention being able to feel the weight.

It's as simple as a matter of taste, though. If you're into that macho muscle car, drag racing, burnout stuff, you're loving the Hellcat/Demon. I love sports cars, but had the misfortune of falling for the Challenger's looks and how the Mustang and Camaro have evolved, so I admit I'm annoyed with Chrysler for not following suit.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:37 AM   #7
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I don't believe in there being excess power in a street car. I don't race, but I love doing pulls. The first time I drove a Hellcat, it was mind blowing fast. That was back in 2012 and it was a gutted caged base car mule that rattled and shook and the supercharger was ear piercing loud. First time I drove a production Hellcat I was underwhelmed. It was so refined, stable, and smooth. Even though it was faster than the original mule, it was easier on the senses. Once you start doing pulls at 80+, the Hellcat doesn't feel fast. The speedo just winds up really fast.

I have a motorcycle that weighs 600lbs and has 120whp, and it needs more power. I do 150mph pulls on it every morning I ride it work. It still needs more power. I'm not doing it around traffic and I have the skills to handle bikes and cars at any speed and I'm very experienced with tire blow outs at excessive speeds.

That's why I like the Demon. It's actually disorienting. And you can experience that at legal speeds. Just launch it at every light lol. The perfect amount of power is when you are at the traction limit up to high speeds.
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Old 04-15-2017, 10:50 AM   #8
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I don't feel I would be able to use much more power.

so I admit I'm annoyed with Chrysler for not following suit.
Well it's a fwd, so you can really use to much power in corners so... For someone who is just a sporty driver who always drives well under the limit, you're not wrong. But for people who are very comfortable at 10/10s you need more. If you think that it's too heavy, spend 500 dollars to go to the Richard Petty SRT day and drive all the SRTs on the track. They are fast and handle very well. Like I mentioned earlier, I out handled a race prepped S2K with aero in An SRT Charger through the slalom. And in the slalom it's all about size and handling.

Chrysler didn't follow suit because a lot of people have families and like being comfortable. The Camaro and Mustang are great drivers cars, but that's all that they're good for. Back seats are useless and there not comfortable on long drives.
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Old 04-15-2017, 11:51 AM   #9
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You can't go anywhere near 10/10s on public roads, regardless of drivetrain, unless you're sub-100hp. Once I get into track days, with as much as they cost, it wouldn't be more than a few times a year. At the track, I'm sure the Challenger's plenty enjoyable, but that's not where I'll realistically be driving it.

I would never go after a "comfortable family car" and end up with a coupe, I don't care how big the back seats are. To me, a coupe is an experience for those two front seats, if not just the driver. In a coupe, I want a driver's car.

My next car purchase will for sure be RWD, and there are a small handful I'm very interested in at the moment (Mustang being one). But I've got plenty of time before I'm in that position, so I'll of course be keeping an eye on future updates to the Challenger.

As for the FWD and higher power comment, that's just not true these days. You keep mentioning track or 10/10ths performance, and there are too many high-powered Hondas out there destroying time attack, with the proper mods to handle 500+whp around a corner.
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:39 PM   #10
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You can't go anywhere near 10/10s on public roads

I would never go after a "comfortable family car" and end up with a coupe, I don't care how big the back seats are. To me, a coupe is an experience for those two front seats, if not just the driver. In a coupe, I want a driver's car.

I'll of course be keeping an eye on future updates to the Challenger.

As for the FWD and higher power comment, that's just not true these days. You keep mentioning track or 10/10ths performance, and there are too many high-powered Hondas out there destroying time attack, with the proper mods to handle 500+whp around a corner.
I get paid to evaluate and tune cars at 10/10ths on public roads and make sure they're safe a stable.

Your opinion is cool and all, but the fact is most people able to drop 40-50k on a muscle car have families and they can't always afford an SUV and the muscle car. That's why we sell Chargers like crazy. And we have the best exhaust nowadays and that's what most buyers want. Better than average speed, good looks, great sound.

Last year of the Challenger is 2018. No more updates. We will however be developing a "pony car" based off the Guillia platform. We will exceed the mustang capabilities and at least be on par with GMs Alpha platform (the new Camaro is the best muscle car on the market in regards to the driver)

And as far as the last comment, take a RWD car off equal weight and power and the RWD wins. I know both sides, if you follow my build thread I've invested serious dough in building a competitive track car. But I have to have more grip and more power than a RWD. It's all about the traction circle. A RWD ceteris peribus, has a much rounder circle.
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:45 PM   #11
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Also in regards to the GM Alpha platform. It's actually a 3 series lol. The lead dynamics engineer for that platform left GM and now works with me at Chrysler. The first Alpha mules were actually camo'd 3 series with GM motors swapped in. They would develop a GM part to mimic the BMW part and slowly swap it out piece by piece until all they were left with was a 3 series chassis, then they swapped all they parts into a proto chassis and went from there. Really cool tactic and they ended up with a better platform than BMW for half the price.
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Old 04-15-2017, 01:49 PM   #12
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No more Challenger? Bummer. At least they're going out with a bang!
From what I hear, the Giullia platform is fantastic. Fiat never had a problem designing a competent chassis. Their electrical and mechanical quality left some things to be desired. I would absolutely trust a modern Fiat with a Chrysler V8 under the hood, though! Not a fan of Chrysler's 4 and 6 cylinder engines, but they know how to make an 8 (and if the Hemi wasn't noticeably more expensive to maintain and modify than the LSx, I might have an SRT8 in my driveway instead of a CTS-V!)
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:07 PM   #13
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Our new GMET-4 and GMET-6 is a serious contender... Our next coupe with a GMET-6 is going to dominate in a serious way. Our GMET-4 in a 4600lb SUV makes it feel like a 3000lb SUV.
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:13 PM   #14
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To be clear, we make horrid NA 4 cylinders. Our boosted 4s are amazing. And the Pentastar is bad ass.
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:15 PM   #15
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Interesting. I'm looking forward to seeing them!
My stepfather owned a Chrysler dealership until the mid 00s, and they dealt with the problematic V6s of the late 90s quite a bit. My opinion of Chrysler engines, other than the Hemi, has been soured significantly by that. I had a friend who picked up a cheap Intrepid with a blown 2.7, and he wanted to get a cheap replacement so he could flip the car. I hit up the service writer at my stepdad's dealership, and he laughed when I told him that. He said "man, you and everyone else wants a replacement 2.7! Those things are all blowing up at 70,000 miles!"

I'm also looking forward to Chrysler building a reputation as a legitimate luxury brand. Lincoln has fallen, and Cadillac is the only luxury marque of the Big 3 that is currently a serious contender. The last two generations of the Chrysler 300 were damn good, but they didn't quite have the clout to compete (anyone who knew they were rolling on an M-B handmedown platform probably dismissed them as lower-tier immediately.) Chrysler has the heritage, they have the performance, and they have the backing of a brand that SHOULD be able to build a legitimate luxury vehicle with appropriate prestige. I'll be a fan again once they pull that off.
Also, we need a proper Neon SRT-4 successor. The Caliber was an atrocity, and the Dart was done dirty by never getting a 300hp turbo 4 under the hood (they could have made that happen... they should have made that happen!)
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Old 04-15-2017, 02:51 PM   #16
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^ Deev, have you seen the new Lincoln Continental? Absolutely gorgeous car, and at least according to Matt Farah, it's got that old school American idea of comfort instead of the Nurburgring obsession every other luxury car these days has. Pretty decent interior, too. If were to get a "comfortable family car" (and could afford to drop $70k on one), that would be my choice.

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I get paid to evaluate and tune cars at 10/10ths on public roads and make sure they're safe a stable.
I was already aware of what you do, so I do respect your input on chassis engineering. That said, I was careful not to touch on a subject I knew you know a lot more than I about.

...I've re-written this paragraph too many times trying to explain what you don't seem to be getting from what I'm saying. So I'll just say, "10/10ths is almost irrelevant to me. From what I've read/seen, the Challenger does not provide the drive I'm after, and I'm putting too much thought into wanting that body styling to be wrapped around a car that it isn't." Good enough.

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Your opinion is cool and all, but the fact is most people able to drop 40-50k on a muscle car have families and they can't always afford an SUV and the muscle car. That's why we sell Chargers like crazy.
??? I'm not at all interested in the Charger. Conversation started from me basically saying I don't like the Challenger's style of performance given that it's a modern coupe, and compared to its competition. But since you brought that car up, I think it's wrong that the two cars share a platform.

Quote:
Last year of the Challenger is 2018. No more updates. We will however be developing a "pony car" based off the Guillia platform. We will exceed the mustang capabilities and at least be on par with GMs Alpha platform (the new Camaro is the best muscle car on the market in regards to the driver)
This is great news! I look forward to hearing more in the future - I'm sure you work under pretty strict NDAs, but when it's released through the press, at least.

Quote:
And as far as the last comment, take a RWD car off equal weight and power and the RWD wins. I know both sides, if you follow my build thread I've invested serious dough in building a competitive track car. But I have to have more grip and more power than a RWD. It's all about the traction circle. A RWD ceteris peribus, has a much rounder circle.
I was never under the delusion that FWD, on even power:weight footing, was better than (or even equal to) RWD. I just meant that putting real power through the front wheels these days without completely ruining the handling isn't nearly as true as it used to be. But then, you know that.
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:01 PM   #17
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I do like the Continental. I dislike that Lincoln insists on putting nothing better than a turbo 6 in their flagship car, though. Especially a FWD-oriented one. It just doesn't do it for me. Granted, this is something Audi had great success doing, so I'm probably just being weird. I just long for a proper RWD V8 powered sport luxury vehicle from Lincoln. A followup to the glorious MKVIII would be fantastic! The Continental is impressive, and it really does have plenty of power... but to me, it's not yet to Cadillac's level (which still needs work.) It used to be Cadillac & Lincoln going head to head, while Chrysler was barely hanging on. Now, it's Cadillac, Chrysler, and Lincoln bringing up the rear in my eyes. Which is funny, because I feel Ford is the frontrunner in terms of overall vehicle quality among the Big 3! Lincoln just seems to have taken Mercury's place.
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:23 PM   #18
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The Demon was made to go as fast as possible in a straight line.

9.65 in the quarter mile with a 5 / 60K warranty that doesn't cost at least a quarter million dollars? That was a pipe dream even a decade ago.

The car was built with one goal, go fast in a straight line. They crushed it. People who want a car fast around corners won't buy it. It's why in the 1960's when the muscle car market was in full swing, there was still a market for small European sports cars and then later the Japanese influx of the 240z / 510 / etc. Different goals for different people.

The shame is I bet a large number will do nothing but idle to and from car shows.
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:26 PM   #19
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Paul Walker died, so Dodge took up the slack and gave Vin Diesel the 10 second car he asked for!
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Old 04-15-2017, 04:38 PM   #20
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Paul Walker died, so Dodge took up the slack and gave Vin Diesel the 10 second car he asked for!
The humor is dark with this one...
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