F22A Bisimoto Header: How well is yours working?

[steelbluesleepR]

F1 engines prove that day in and day out.


The thing is, backyard guys like us don't have access to the bazillion dollar shops that can monitor pulse in a wave length and identify room for improvment. We just don't have that kind of money to throw at the problem.


F1 teams, they have plenty of money and they make GOBS of power N/A. Manifold design is probably 75% of the reason they make that power. This is an outstanding design, and POOR quality fabrication. Nothing more, nothing less.

F1 was NA last year because that is what the rules said. this year, they are running 4-cylinder 1.5L twin-turbo motors.

[toycar]

F1 was NA last year because that is what the rules said. this year, they are running 4-cylinder 1.5L twin-turbo motors.

They switch it up constantly though.

And anywho, I don't personally think n/a outperforms forced induction across the board at all. I think they are two entirely different conversations. Sorry if I came across otherwise. My point is that the opportunity to make power with wave tuned header designs is real, and many people prefer/believe that potential is greater than forced induction.

I mean, there are plenty of 500whp cars that are slower than bisi's insight. So, I understand the theory in thinking either way.


I was mostly posting about this stuff because I got the impression other people posting in the thread thought/think that the header design is to "look cool" and I personally see several aspects that indicate the header is actually designed for scavenging and flow. Anyone can read this shit and spew it out and act like they know it. I don't expect you to care or give a shit about what I am saying. W/out being able to analyze whats happening in the runner and review and re-work it, all anyone is doing is repeating repeated information. Who has the money to dial in wave tuned headers?

Not me thats for sure.

In the defense of the customers... Bisi's near-27whp gains were produced on an untuned, bone-stock F22A1. That was a major selling point, especially for those that jumped on the group buy. Significant gains were promised WITHOUT the need for tuning.

Also, this product is the street version of Bisimoto's header, not the race version. Therefore, it is intended for street use (though not legal on in areas with emissions control.)
Any header designed for use on a car that is occupied for more than a few minutes in a race scenario, especially in stop and go traffic, should NOT leak exhaust fumes directly under the cabin. That is dangerous to all occupants of a vehicle, and it is very irresponsible product design for anything intended to be used for more than a few seconds/minutes at a time on a track.

Yeah, and I feel like this miss-represented data was pretty shitty of them to market on.


I bet he made the power WITH a tune and thats the part he's leaving out. I see your point, and certainly think its fucking shady.

[deevergote]

The claims were that it was without a tune. Very clearly stated. Bolted on, everything else stock, 26whp or so. The claims have always been that the dyno was accurate as well.

Since I do not have what is necessary to re-create Bisi's test, I can only suggest that his findings, with what he had to work with, were accurate.
Granted, he most certainly chose a healthy F22A1 to test, and I'm sure refreshed all necessary parts (something that the average enthusiast SHOULD do before adding serious performance parts anyway...) Seeing as people are bolting these headers to 20 year old engines with varying degrees of wear, the results will definitely vary... sometimes considerably.

[toycar]

the results will definitely vary... sometimes considerably.

For sure.


The scavenging process is a balancing act allowing the exhaust valves to stay open long enough to create velocity in the runner creating a vac in the cylinder that equates to air being drawn into the cylinder faster. The amount of vac created has a lot to do with gas speeds, which is directly related to gas temps. Overscavenging is real too. Too much scavenging, without the appropriate compression in the cylinder and valve overlap and scavenging will actually reduce flow. Because this is such a delicate process, things like vac leaks or bad gaskets would have a tremendous effect on the performance gains seen.

The runner diameter and length determine how pressure is generated and that pressure in the runner, sealed to the cylinder, creates vac to draw more air into the cylinder. Bends in the runner can be used to offer restriction to help maintain pressure between exhaust pulses. The farther away from the cylinder, the slower the gas is going to start to travel. That is why the diameter of the runner varies on the bisi header. It gets smaller the farther away from the cylinder it gets.

This process is also one of many ways people achieve greater than 100% volumetric efficiency.




Just saying. For all the slammage on BISI, the worst thing I can personally say is someone-NOT BISI-has done a shitty job welding up his designs. His design is very well thought out though, and I am sure that he could tell you why every inch of the header is designed the way it is. Its not some slap together jobby to look cool.


Its not engine bling, thats for sures

[deevergote]

Exactly. I'll criticize where criticism is deserved, but I won't deny credit where credit is due. Bisi's header is far more than just a fancy looking collection of pipes. The man in an engineer, and was before he became a well-known racer and designer of parts. He DOES know what he is doing in terms of his header design. Perhaps his choice of fabricators hasn't been ideal. Perhaps his business practices leave some things to be desired. But his expertise as an engineer is indisputable. To say that someone could just "go to any fabricator and have a better quality product" is absurd. Sure, you could get better welding and better fitment... but the flow design of Bisi's header is something that takes more than skill with a torch.

Complaints or not, right now there are NO headers on the market that even come close to the gains provided by the Bisimoto unit. We do need a better product if people are going to be happy with such a piece on their street car. It would be very nice if that better product came from Bisimoto. If not, someone will create such a thing eventually. Or not... I mean, there's not exactly a crazy market for high-end F22A headers that were built using in-depth engineering knowledge, extensive R&D, and proven on the race track.

Face it, kids... this is what you have to work with. Unless you want to be the one to initiate the production of a superior product from another source, then Bisimoto is your only source for a header of this caliber.
If you want a better product, you have two options... show Bisi RESPECTFULLY what you want, and why, and hope he follows up without raising the cost significantly. OR, be willing to spend more money. Unless Bisi is totally unscrupulous, I would imagine that a higher price would allow for higher quality manufacturing.

[GhostAccord]

Key on the exhaust scavenging is to have the pipe the exact length that would have the vacuum event (or wave pulse) happen exactly when there is an overlap of the intake and exhaust valves. This helps suck air into the combustion chamber before the piston starts to. When designed properly as mentioned it can create a +100% volumetric efficiency. It creates a sort of natural turbo or ram charge into the cylinders.

[Ralphie]

So are you suggesting that, to cut corners and lower the price, he went with a bad fabricator?

I just think that's crazy, after all he hard work, to go with a shitty fab dept.

Idk maybe it's just me, I would want my sales items to be of even better quality then the one I had.

If he had 27hp added, then I would have tried to send out peices that were so solid, they would be closer to 30(I know everyones car is different etc)

Idk that's just sad to me.

[deevergote]

I don't think it was an intentional decision. I'm sure it was an issue of cost. When you're looking to produce a product, especially a "large" run such as the group buy batch, you go with the lowest cost option. In this case, it seems that the lowest cost option was inferior.
The metal quality was also a low cost option. We know it was shipped from China (I still have yet to see proof that the welding was done in China, but the metal most certainly was from there.) As with many Chinese products these days, the metal may be inferior, and prone to warping (warped pipes would certainly account for significant leaks at the slip joint.)


Bisi's position is a complicated one. He produced a quality design, and marketed it to people with old, inexpensive cars. In order to sell a significant amount of that product, the price had to be "reasonable" in the eyes of that particular market. When we can buy our cars in "decent" shape for $1000, it's difficult to justify spending more than that for a header. $630 (the group buy price) was expensive enough for this crowd!


Cutting corners to keep cost down isn't shady. It's good business. BUT those corners should be cut in a way that does not compromise the integrity of the product. In this case, they may have. It doesn't mean Bisi is shady. It only means he made poor choices in where and how to cut corners.

[GhostAccord]

So are you suggesting that, to cut corners and lower the price, he went with a bad fabricator?

I just think that's crazy, after all he hard work, to go with a shitty fab dept.

Idk maybe it's just me, I would want my sales items to be of even better quality then the one I had.

Yes most companies strive for product quality. It's called QA or quality assurance. It is a team/person put in place to make sure all of the items coming off of the shop floor follow strict procedures and pass company standards...... He had very little of this....

He definitely wasn't using labour/welders worth charging $1200 for. Considering they just started to back purge their welds recently. To anyone who doesn't know about welding procedures for welding pipe. Back purging is a must! Without it the welds can have all sorts of issues.

[19dabeast85]

One thing people are missing with the +27whp gain is that this was NOT a 27whp peak gain, it WAS a 27whp max gain. The peak hp gain was about 12whp, still significant. The 27whp gain happened around 6k rpm AFTER peak whp is made. Bisi's header power curve simply drops off much slower than the stock manifold.

Everyone knows the f22a1 exhaust manifold flows horrible in mid-upper range, significantly suppressing upper end power. Exhaust velocity is way too high for optimum power with the stock mani and it falls flat on its face around 5k........ANY aftermarket header will show significant gains in the upper range on the f22 just because the system can breathe much better. The amazing thing Bisi did though is create a header that increased the upper end while also slightly increasing mid-range AND maintained the f22 low-end grunt. VERY good design.

I know the welds aren't pretty like we want but I have had no issues in 2 years with the welds, they are still strong even if not beautiful.

Unfortunately something true for most entrepreneurs is they are EITHER excellent at the product/service of their business OR excellent at running a business. Rarely do you find someone with the skills AND business sense.....Bisi's customer service and business tactics suck but that doesn't mean he isn't a genius product designer.

[93AccordLXwhite]

Yes most companies strive for product quality. It's called QA or quality assurance.

...He definitely wasn't using labour/welders worth charging $1200 for.

My thinking is this:
-Obviously people are not paying for quality assurance.
-Obviously they're not paying for quality materials.
-Obviously they're not paying for quality labor (or skilled labor).
-Obviously they're not paying for customer service (or easy returns/repairs etc.)

So what are they paying for?
-A design.
-A reputation.

Now if these two things are analyzed briefly I believe they don't hold much water.

The design:
-The "27 WHP Gain" was probably the biggest sales pitch.
-The "custom built for your application" was another.
I haven't seen evidence to prove either of these true.

The reputation:
-This really varies based on personal opinion so I wont discuss it.

Personally, I would find a local fabricator who had experience and extra time, buy quality materials, and have him/her duplicate a header. Is it unethical? Perhaps. Personally, if there was proof that the Bisimoto shop had professionally designed the F22 header, and actually engineered it for efficiency, I would lean towards saying that copying the design would be unethical.

But I am skeptical that the Bisimoto shop did indeed optimally design the header for the F22 engine specifically. I am more inclined to believe the design was arrived at after a mixture of trial-by-error (testing different diameter pipes, lengths, bends, etc.), and eye-appeal (let's face it, there's no doubt when you see those bends you associate "Bisimoto Engineering").
^I am not suggesting that the header does not increase power. I am suggesting that the header increases power, but not in the ways it was/is marketed.

Basically, I would not feel bad copying a design from a company which can't prove that they actually "engineered" it. I would not have mixed feelings copying a design from a company that was belligerant in their refusal to manufacture a quality product of their design.


If Neuspeed had a great design for a front tower brace, but made them out of hollow aluminum with shitty welds, I would take a sample to a machine shop and have them make me one that worked. Simple as that. That's business.

[toycar]

My thinking is this:
-Obviously people are not paying for quality assurance.
-Obviously they're not paying for quality materials.
-Obviously they're not paying for quality labor (or skilled labor).
-Obviously they're not paying for customer service (or easy returns/repairs etc.)

So what are they paying for?
-A design.
-A reputation.

Now if these two things are analyzed briefly I believe they don't hold much water.

The design:
-The "27 WHP Gain" was probably the biggest sales pitch.
-The "custom built for your application" was another.
I haven't seen evidence to prove either of these true.

The reputation:
-This really varies based on personal opinion so I wont discuss it.

Personally, I would find a local fabricator who had experience and extra time, buy quality materials, and have him/her duplicate a header. Is it unethical? Perhaps. Personally, if there was proof that the Bisimoto shop had professionally designed the F22 header, and actually engineered it for efficiency, I would lean towards saying that copying the design would be unethical.

But I am skeptical that the Bisimoto shop did indeed optimally design the header for the F22 engine specifically. I am more inclined to believe the design was arrived at after a mixture of trial-by-error (testing different diameter pipes, lengths, bends, etc.), and eye-appeal (let's face it, there's no doubt when you see those bends you associate "Bisimoto Engineering").
^I am not suggesting that the header does not increase power. I am suggesting that the header increases power, but not in the ways it was/is marketed.

Basically, I would not feel bad copying a design from a company which can't prove that they actually "engineered" it. I would not have mixed feelings copying a design from a company that was belligerant in their refusal to manufacture a quality product of their design.


If Neuspeed had a great design for a front tower brace, but made them out of hollow aluminum with shitty welds, I would take a sample to a machine shop and have them make me one that worked. Simple as that. That's business.

Well the header looks strikingly similar to the one on his insight. He designed that himself, and fabricated that particular unit himself. Are you sugesting he cut 9's on hopes and dreams, or just sheer luck?

Because neither happen, ever.

Now I'm not trying to be insulting, but honest. Seriously, nobody cuts 9's with a naturally aspirated 4cylinder engine that "threw together some pipes" or anything like that.


Give a little credit where credit is due. The fact that it makes 27whp peak at 6,000 whatever Rpms should tell you something.


Scavenging. Read up on it.


If you really want to argue that you think this header is just slapped together, you are really just admitting you know nothing about header design.

Sorry that that is the truth here.

[93AccordLXwhite]

Well the header looks strikingly similar to the one on his insight. He designed that himself, and fabricated that particular unit himself. Are you sugesting he cut 9's on hopes and dreams, or just sheer luck?

Because neither happen, ever.

What I'm suggesting is related to what you pointed out, that, "the header looks strikingly similar to the one on his insight."

I'm not debating whether or not the elegant design is better/worse than a standard one etc. etc.

What I'm suggesting, is that the possibility exists that someone thought, "hey, this header we're using on our race car is really unique and looks pretty cool. I bet we can market and sell a similar style."

Perhaps the header on the Insight was specifically designed (whether in-house or not) to make power in that application, and tuned to return the best e.t.


What I am saying, is that I'm skeptical that the header which is marketed as being 'specific to the F22' is in fact specifically optimized for the F22. I understand that this is really not worth discussing because there are so many factors which come into play that an answer will never be known (so let's avoid derailing the thread):
-Sacrifices have to be made for fitment (keeping A/C or P/S etc. etc.)
-Sacrifices have to be made for durability/longevity (whereas race applications only need to make it through the race before replacement/repair)
-Sacrifices have to be made for NVH/user comfort (noise levels, exhaust leaks, etc.)

Basically, what I am saying is that I'm not apt to believe that someone sat down at a computer/desk, and designed a header for the F22 engine from the ground up which would be specifically efficient for the head/engine characteristics.

My skepticism leads me to assume that a more likely method would be to simply modify an existing header design in order to make it address (as well as it could) the areas listed above (fitment issues, NVH, etc,)

Now, I am not suggesting there is anything wrong with a trial-by-error style of designing. Hell, if a header made 27 WHP I wouldn't care if it was drawn on an etch-a-sketch. What I am saying, is that from what I've read, Bisimoto Engineering marketed certain headers as being "application specific" which were delivered without any "application specific" modifications made to them.

This leads me to ask myself a few questions regarding why this would occur:
-Is it because Bisimoto Engineering lacks the knowledge to design an application specific header?
-Was it blatant dishonesty and greed?
-Did the company over-promise and then realize they couldn't fulfill orders for whatever reason?

Whatever the case may be, I am not inclined to believe it when a company tells me that their product is specifically designed to make power on my engine, when they have untruthfully said the same regarding other applications.


Out of curiosity, does anyone have a collection of before/after dynos? (you can PM me if you think it's off topic)

[SOHC-FTW]

19dabeast85 has a DC vs bisi comparison..... Look for his threads.

[mndude07]

I still say that if you took one look at that slip-fit connection and thought it would be 100% leak free, you're an idiot. Its obvious. Also, if you have any knowledge of acoustics, thermodynamics, and fluid mechanics, you would know how difficult it is to design a header to make the same gains as bisi's personal header off a simple spec sheet. The engine needs to be tuned to realize the full potential of the exhaust. If you just bolt it on and expect miracles, then look elsewhere. Yeesh.

If I still had a CB7, I would buy this header because I know its potential, and I know its advantages and shortcomings, and I would be prepared for them accordingly.