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Old 04-05-2016, 08:33 PM   #1
willbill642
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Question Suspension and Brakes - what do you run?

After a second track day and having completely ruined my wagon rotors, I'm looking at getting something better AGAIN. I'm well aware of the time-old combo of prelude calipers/equivalent and 11.1" rotors, I'm running the wagon HOR setup for thicker rotors and Legend 2-pots. Brake feel is incredibly good, and stopping was a significant improvement over the Prelude calipers.

However, the heat buildup on the front rotors is huge. I've warped everything I put up there, so what do you guys use? Anyone running a bigger brake setup? I know of the RL caliper adapters floating around, but I've never seen anyone run it for anything other than looks. Has anyone dealt with the heat buildup in other ways? I've thought of ducting, but I'm not entirely sure how to run that, anyone have ideas?

Part two-brake bias and proportioning valves. Anyone have experience with this? I've heard some recommend the DA 40/40 valve, but I've never actually heard performance results from the swap. Anyone mess with something else? There's some adjustable prop valves from the likes of Wilwood and such, anyone used one of those?

Part three- I've read the long discussion on spring rates, but when it came down to it it has been nothing but speculation and nobody has results in for different spring rates. I'm currently on H&R Race springs and Bilsteins, but the understeer is really not good. I'm looking to pick up a Progressive RSB this summer, but I'm unsure if that will be enough to kill the understeer.
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Old 04-05-2016, 10:06 PM   #2
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The Progress rear sway bar will help immensely. The H&R Race springs should be doing well enough to prevent the front from diving in during heavy braking, but from how quickly you're wearing parts, the bias still seems heavily situated in the front.

Things to alleviate this:
Run stiff front springs (which you do).
Beef up rear braking.
Put the car on a diet.

I don't know what your rear setup is, or which pad compound you're using all around. If you're running rear drums, I would suggest running rear discs. Are you using stainless lines? If not, they would help ensure that braking efficiency was better, meaning you would not have to hold as long on the pedal to achieve the same braking result. The fluid you run also determines some portion of braking performance. Resistance to boiling will mean less heat retention in the braking system. Another thing to address would be the manufacturer of the rotors you're using.


There are thicker OEM rotors out there, but you'll need to swap to a rotor-over-hub setup or do a 5-lug conversion in order to utilize them.
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Old 04-05-2016, 11:09 PM   #3
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I agree with what Jarrett said.

However my question to you is if you warped rotors already what brand did you use, and are they slotted and drilled and if so what was the brand, I would recommend slotted bbc rotors with bbc green pads. Reason being the heat will not be to much of an issue as well as braking. I've read to stay away from drilled rotors as they tend to warp and crack .

Another thing I have to ask your bracing, what kind of strut bars if you're using strut bars, are you using?
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:21 AM   #4
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As-is, brake balance is fairly even, although fronts do lock first. I've run Autozone Duralast and Brembo blanks, both of which lasted forever on the street and ~5 laps on a track day. As for brake pads, I'd have to check but I believe it's Stoptech sports at both ends. Also, running a full rear '93 Wagon EX rear setup, so rear discs and 38mm calipers are what's back there with Brembo blanks.

Unfortunately, weight reduction can't go too far, since I still daily the damn thing. Stainless braided lines are on the list, but they're a bit pricey all things considered and a bit low on priorities. I've run DOT 4 then DOT 3 this last time, and I never noticed brake fade. Although, it's hard to compare when you're focused on keeping the car straight from the shaking so there could be differences. DOT 5 is coming up next, but that will come with whatever I do to the front rotors.

I've heard to keep away from drilled or slotted rotors because it creates hotspots and warps or cracks easier. I can't imagine a few slits would actually reduce the chance of warping.

Jarrett- Do you have a recommendation for thicker rotors? I know of Legend 28mm rotors, but that's a 5 lug swap and a bunch of new wheels. I have no problem going ROH, I just haven't seen any >23mm 4x114 rotors available.

Darkcloud- Strut bars are planned along with the Progress RSB, but with ESP basically out of business I have no idea what to go with. I see Ultra Racing bars on FleaBay that look pretty substantial, and I've heard good things from some of the MX5 guys about other products. Have any recommendations for a strut bar?

Something else since we're talking suspension-front traction bars. I've thought about getting one just to have more downpipe clearance when I finally build up a turbo motor, but is there any noticable handling improvements?
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:22 AM   #5
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For FSB's your best bet would be to contact ESP and see if he is willing to make a couple of one off's. He may be willing to. If that isn't an option then I would have to say that Ultra Racing would be your next best bet. Any strut bar with hinged points in it isn't going to do much for the car as it can still flex with the car to an extent. I noticed a huge difference going from my bolted together eBay bar to the solid Ultra Racing front strut bar on my sedan. I'm sure with the 3 point ESP bar in the coupe it's going to be an even larger difference. I just haven't driven the coupe yet with all it's suspension upgrades. The Ultra Racing bars are quality stuff.
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Old 04-07-2016, 06:42 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willbill642 View Post
As-is, brake balance is fairly even, although fronts do lock first. I've run Autozone Duralast and Brembo blanks, both of which lasted forever on the street and ~5 laps on a track day. As for brake pads, I'd have to check but I believe it's Stoptech sports at both ends. Also, running a full rear '93 Wagon EX rear setup, so rear discs and 38mm calipers are what's back there with Brembo blanks.

Unfortunately, weight reduction can't go too far, since I still daily the damn thing. Stainless braided lines are on the list, but they're a bit pricey all things considered and a bit low on priorities. I've run DOT 4 then DOT 3 this last time, and I never noticed brake fade. Although, it's hard to compare when you're focused on keeping the car straight from the shaking so there could be differences. DOT 5 is coming up next, but that will come with whatever I do to the front rotors.

I've heard to keep away from drilled or slotted rotors because it creates hotspots and warps or cracks easier. I can't imagine a few slits would actually reduce the chance of warping.

Jarrett- Do you have a recommendation for thicker rotors? I know of Legend 28mm rotors, but that's a 5 lug swap and a bunch of new wheels. I have no problem going ROH, I just haven't seen any >23mm 4x114 rotors available.

Darkcloud- Strut bars are planned along with the Progress RSB, but with ESP basically out of business I have no idea what to go with. I see Ultra Racing bars on FleaBay that look pretty substantial, and I've heard good things from some of the MX5 guys about other products. Have any recommendations for a strut bar?

Something else since we're talking suspension-front traction bars. I've thought about getting one just to have more downpipe clearance when I finally build up a turbo motor, but is there any noticable handling improvements?
Anything thick like Cusco, I have a Falken bar but I'm changing plans for a custom tower bar. Stay away from cheap bars like Megan their bars flex a lot. Ur is a good brand haven't tried. I may give it a go with them soon. I have heard that their fender braces keeps the car in check which that may help with braking.

I say don't get a traction bar yet. I say get the energy suspension for the from cross member. That actually helped me hold better. If you don't already have that kit I say buy replace your bushings.
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Old 04-08-2016, 12:23 AM   #7
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Anything thick like Cusco, I have a Falken bar but I'm changing plans for a custom tower bar. Stay away from cheap bars like Megan their bars flex a lot. Ur is a good brand haven't tried. I may give it a go with them soon. I have heard that their fender braces keeps the car in check which that may help with braking.

I say don't get a traction bar yet. I say get the energy suspension for the from cross member. That actually helped me hold better. If you don't already have that kit I say buy replace your bushings.
Hahaha..I actually have the Energy suspension kit sitting around. I should probably get around to putting all the bushings and such in.

As for the bars, I think I'll grab a pair of Ultra Racing bars for the front and back, then just build some solid bars once I've got welding down or grab some ESP bars if a group buy happens when I've got the cash.


Now to brakes-I still have no idea what to do. Just grab some new Wagon rotors, remove the dust shield, and create some brake ducts..? Go ROH and drill some Legend rotors while also trying to find 28T brakets? Go even bigger brakes? I know the 99'-04' RL has something like 11.8" and special brackets, but I don't think that will fit under my daily 15" rims. Arrrggh..
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Old 04-08-2016, 06:00 AM   #8
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I run ducts and it works. Ive got it pointing on the caliper though.
Slotted is fine blanks are not. They allow for gas build up between the pad and disc. Dont go drilled they will crack top and bottom of each hole bit by bit.

Bedding in the brakes is important for this reason. And after each run you do a cool down lap where only light braking occurs but airflow still is cooling them.

if you come in and the pads are smoking or a tad on fire then you have been driving properly but it also means you need to go back out immediately and do another cool down lap. Since a hot pad sitting on one point of the disc will warp the discs.

Really though if you are struggling with heat that bad either slow down a bit or spend money on a big brake kit and braking woes will be gone.
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Old 04-08-2016, 10:08 AM   #9
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Shouldn't a performance EBC drilled/slotted rotor and pads do the trick here?
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Old 04-08-2016, 03:47 PM   #10
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I run ducts and it works. Ive got it pointing on the caliper though.
Slotted is fine blanks are not. They allow for gas build up between the pad and disc. Dont go drilled they will crack top and bottom of each hole bit by bit.

Bedding in the brakes is important for this reason. And after each run you do a cool down lap where only light braking occurs but airflow still is cooling them.

if you come in and the pads are smoking or a tad on fire then you have been driving properly but it also means you need to go back out immediately and do another cool down lap. Since a hot pad sitting on one point of the disc will warp the discs.

Really though if you are struggling with heat that bad either slow down a bit or spend money on a big brake kit and braking woes will be gone.
I mean slowing down would solve the problem, but what's the fun in that I guess I should add both times I felt the rotor go from true to warped while in a hard decel both times. I take a cool down lap at the end of each of my sessions, so I don't think I've ever seen the pad smoke or even be on fire. Ducts it is, then I guess I'll have to look into either EBC slotted rotors or going 16" on my daily wheels and putting larger brakes under it, probably with EBC rotors as well. I'm not sure if I'll go EBC pads, my current pads are more than aggressive enough and have never faded on me, I can still lock them at 95 on the back straight then again 30 seconds later at the slowest corner of the track which comes right off a 70 stretch.

Since most of the Accord kits don't really exist anymore, would you have a recommendation for a big brake kit? I figured prelude kits would work but even then I haven't seen any around.
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Old 04-08-2016, 04:05 PM   #11
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One important note is that if you are using an aggressive pad with a non-aggressive rotor it will warp very easily. Been here before by using a Napa premium pads with cheap rotors.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:41 AM   #12
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Yep route the ducts front of bumper with a cone on the end. Then route one by the the gearbox and onto the radius rod, the other between bottom of rad. I found you might need to cut some wheel arch liner to keep it safe distance from crank pulley. Cable tie end around to point at the brakes. Best 20 I spent on the brakes!

Castrol SRF brake fluid, Ferodo DS2500 pads and Black Diamond slotted discs. One of the best setup you can get really on Prelude brakes. Personally apart from ebc yellow stuff pads I dont rate their stuff.

Im in the market for bigger brakes I feel really upgrading to ATR calipers and discs would be the best oem but improvements still well under what you would get from a big brake kit. Stoptech do alot of the race series around here, if they are good enough for race they are good enough for trackdays. Price is the problem though 1800 for stoptechs.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:28 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcusv8thunder View Post
Yep route the ducts front of bumper with a cone on the end. Then route one by the the gearbox and onto the radius rod, the other between bottom of rad. I found you might need to cut some wheel arch liner to keep it safe distance from crank pulley. Cable tie end around to point at the brakes. Best 20 I spent on the brakes!

Castrol SRF brake fluid, Ferodo DS2500 pads and Black Diamond slotted discs. One of the best setup you can get really on Prelude brakes. Personally apart from ebc yellow stuff pads I dont rate their stuff.

Im in the market for bigger brakes I feel really upgrading to ATR calipers and discs would be the best oem but improvements still well under what you would get from a big brake kit. Stoptech do alot of the race series around here, if they are good enough for race they are good enough for trackdays. Price is the problem though 1800 for stoptechs.
Since we didn't get the ATR in the US, mind sharing the specs of the ATR setup? I've always been curious what they put on it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 02:31 PM   #14
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One important note is that if you are using an aggressive pad with a non-aggressive rotor it will warp very easily. Been here before by using a Napa premium pads with cheap rotors.
So funny story about that-I just talked with the place I picked up the front Brembo rotors from, and they said they had a shipment from their supplier that wasn't actual Brembo rotors! They said it was likely the discs I bought from them was not actual Brembos so I'm bringing them in today and seeing if that's the issue. If cheap rotors have been my problem the whole damn time...
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Old 04-11-2016, 03:56 AM   #15
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Update-Front brembos were not brembos. Put the warped Duralast on since they're what I had on hand and they're drivable for now. Also added the gold CMAX pads that were bed in with them. Working fine for now but I'm also not driving much and what little I do is in-town slowspeed, so I should be safe. Looking into either EBC rotors and pads or something from StopTech or Power Stop. Not sure at all. Considering going to a junkyard and looking at using RL brakes and going 5-lug, but then I would have to jump up a size on my daily wheels. Although, I wonder if the Spoon Monoblocks work with the RL rotors, or what I would have to use to do Spoon Monoblocks. 11.1" is likely just too small for a high speed track, so I probably need a larger rotor.

I feel like I should finally start a MR thread just to dump my thoughts and plans into.
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Old 10-09-2016, 10:49 PM   #16
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Centric Stoptech on Rockauto

We've been endurance racing, LeMons, with the Centric Stoptech Sport rotors, slotted not drilled. They are available for about $56 each on rockauto, and you'll find them under the heavy duty / towing / track section. They are durable enough to stand up to very aggressive race compounds including Porterfield 4E and Hawk DTC60. At our last Sonoma race we cooked our last set of Porterfields and the caliper got so hot it cooked the seals on the left side. Sonoma involves breaking from 80 or 90 down to second gear 4 times every 2.5 minutes and we do that for 2 hours a stint with a 10-15 minute driver change, 8 hours a day for two days straight. The rotors were and are still fine. Why spend big bucks on possible fake brembos when the stoptechs are better and cheaper?
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Old 10-10-2016, 09:36 AM   #17
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Glad to hear it! I just put some Stoptechs on my CTS-V.
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Old 10-27-2016, 08:33 AM   #18
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Quote:
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However my question to you is if you warped rotors already what brand did you use, and are they slotted and drilled and if so what was the brand, I would recommend slotted bbc rotors with bbc green pads. Reason being the heat will not be to much of an issue as well as braking. I've read to stay away from drilled rotors as they tend to warp and crack .
Old post, but I feel I must add personal experience to this. If you mean EBC, then don't get Green Stuff pads for heavy use. They're more of an OEM replacement. I used to have them, and they faded just like stock in my mountain runs. Not to mention, my slotted discs tore right through them. I upgraded to Hawk HPS and they've been much better for my street car, but probably still aren't something you'd want to track.

I hear that EBC discs, at least their common stuff like the Black Dashes that I have, don't hold up well to heavy duty pads and track use. I think mine might be slightly warped, and after three years (most of it with HPS pads) they're developing a lip.
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Old 11-02-2016, 02:26 PM   #19
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A friend of mine had some EBC Green Stuff pads lose their friction material after a very short time. It just fell off the backing plate. I always liked the company based on reputation, but after that, they're low on my list of consideration, for sure.
Hawk seems to have a VERY long-running good reputation around here. I have no experience with them either, but when I start hitting the track, Hawk is going to be my first choice.

That being said, the StopTech rotors and Centric pads I just installed on my CTS-V are working nicely. Fully broken in. I haven't done any truly spirited driving with them yet, but my braking is HUGELY improved over the stuff that was on there previously (OEM replacement, I assume... though OEM on a CTS-V should be pretty beefy...)
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Old 12-16-2016, 09:09 PM   #20
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brakes

I only have wagon front uprade, rear disk conversion, prop valve upgrade, stainless steel brake lines, prelude master cyl on centric rotors and wagner ceramics on the CB.
Wagon brake upgrade, centric rotors and wagner ceramics on the CD. stainless hoses are next.

Come to rhink about it i have wagner on all my vehicles.
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