Ford focus RS vs civic type R

[owequitit]

With Audi and BMW making such a big deal about their small turbo 4 cylinder engines, even in their larger offerings (5 Series and A6), I could definitely see the trend going that way. BMW and Audi are major trendsetters, and I've noticed that other brands tend to follow their lead. Emissions and fuel economy regulations are becoming stricter worldwide. Many countries penalize owners for engine displacement over a certain amount. The trend is definitely going that way.

The good thing is that we'll get LOTS of turbo engines to play with (and lots of used turbo parts to scavenge from junkyards in a decade, for those of us still into this stuff...)
The bad thing is that the monstrous V8s that Americans love so much will become a rarity.
Ford is already touting their Ecoboost V6. The Mustang has been transformed from a drag machine to a car with legitimate handling chops. I understand how eliminating the V8 from the lineup now would cause outrage... but I could foresee Ford replacing the top Mustang engine with a twin-turbo V6 in another generation. GM offers a twin-turbo V6 in the ATS-V, which is closely related to the Camaro. In another generation, the two cars could very well share that same powerplant. The ATS-V makes 420hp, so in another generation of ATS/Camaro, that could easily hit 450hp from the factory.


That being said, I do fear for the high-performance variants in general. Normal car performance is such that it's difficult to make a car that is forgiving enough on public roads, but extreme enough to satisfy enthusiasts. The very first Civic Type R, 20 years ago, made 182hp. That's a little more than half what the current Type R makes! As I have said before, 305hp in a FWD street car is pretty nuts... even as a modified tuner car, let alone something from the factory (with corporate liability to consider.) How much more can they push it?
The STi has basically exceeded Subaru's capabilities in the market, I feel. That's why it has stayed at roughly the same power output since its US release. In order to release a more powerful car, the company would have to start from the ground up... and they'd likely end up with something that would price itself right out of the market. At nearly $40,000 already, it's pretty much at its ceiling. The current STi is already immensely powerful and extremely capable. It can do things that 90% of STi owners will never do. Few STi owners will ever come close to exceeding the vehicle's capabilities. Yet in a market where you can spend less money on cars from other automakers with similar capabilities and more power, it's becoming irrelevant.
The Hellcat cars are a prime example of things going TOO far. NOBODY needs 707hp! People want it, sure. I want it. But who can use it? I can barely use the 400hp I have now.
Performance cars are quickly becoming so powerful, so capable, that they are almost reaching the realms of theoretical, hypothetical performance levels. Regular cars are practically where performance cars were a few years ago. The current turbo Civic makes nearly as much power as the original Civic Type R (granted, there's a weight difference of about 350lbs...) The current base model Civic is putting out what early Si models were doing (again, weight difference applies... but still...)

Actually, all of these "mini" turbo fours have some very real consequences for most situations. In our quest to stop a chemical that isn't even harmful to the environment, we are going backwards in scientific progress about 30 years as a result of direct-injected turbo engines.

First, they produce much more detrimental quantities of particulate matter. We are talking the sort of microscopic particulates that cause smog and other health concerns. It is to the point where they are talking about forcing DI gas engines to have a particulate trap like diesels currently feature... Then you have the reality that these engines tend to have reliability issues due to not only the fuel pressures they run (things like HPFP's fail more often) but also the carbon build up issues most of them are experiencing (with most manufacturers claiming to have "fixed" this issue). Yet, you are seeing major OEM's like VW and Toyota increase the use of dual injection to solve the cylinder pressure/deposit issue. Couple that with a particulate trap and you are looking at quite a cost increase over the long run of the engine.

Then, you have the issue that by and large, you aren't getting vastly better MPG out of these engines anywhere but on the EPA test. My buddy has a turbo 4 328i with the four banger and his MPG is about 1MPG better than my ~300HP NA, port fuel injected V6, both with manuals, both with similar weight, etc. It does get slightly better MPG than his previous E92 328i, but who knows what some minor improvements would have brought? In either case, you are talking about MAYBE $200 a year in operating cost savings, and I can tell you from experience that NONE of these little turbo fours have the refinement of either that BMW straight six or Honda's own J series V6.

To top if off, even the European governments that drive a lot of the technology you find in BMW and Audi are starting to realize the downsides to their course are fairly significant and are starting to push away from diesels and possibly small turbo engines.

[deevergote]

I knew the greater complexity brought reliability and cost issues, but I didn't realize they were actually polluting more!

It seems that the market is still swinging toward the use of small turbo fours and sixes in place of larger displacement N/A engines. I wonder if/when that trend is abandoned, how long it will take for automakers to readjust.

[rexload]

Only way I would buy the CTR is if had extra money laying around to take it road racing regularly, along with tires/maintenance/depreciation & body work - which all come with racing a car on a weekly basis.

But financing a car, then maybe taking it to the track a couple of times a year, but not really racing it because you actually can't afford to break anything.. and being constantly worried about the car getting dinged in a parking lot. It's just not worth it to me IMHO. The car clearly looks like it belongs on the track.

So I would say, it makes sense to buy both the Civic and the Focus. Spend a day with each car at the track. Keep the one you like more, sell the other one. It's not like it will be hard to find a buyer....

[h22sparkle]

What gets me is this when you put a small turbo on a small motor I can imagine the damage if something really goes wrong. More than likely the cost of the engine let alone finding it because it's new will flatout cost more than the car itself.

[cb7 calling]

Sounds like you guys don't think the ctr will be more reliable than the other turbo 4's? The ctr will be the race car you can dd. Not only is it faster than the srt,wrx, focus rs around a track it's a Honda. It has the best chance of any of those listed to beat a Carolla to 200,000 miles.

[owequitit]

Sounds like you guys don't think the ctr will be more reliable than the other turbo 4's? The ctr will be the race car you can dd. Not only is it faster than the srt,wrx, focus rs around a track it's a Honda. It has the best chance of any of those listed to beat a Carolla to 200,000 miles.

New Hondas are not as trouble free as old ones...

[cb7 calling]

Not trying to be a smart Alec but I'm not comparing it to old Hondas. In defense of new Hondas reliability you have anything with a manual transmission and the tsx as good buys. I think I would put the tsx up against the cb.

[Raf99]

What gets me is this when you put a small turbo on a small motor I can imagine the damage if something really goes wrong. More than likely the cost of the engine let alone finding it because it's new will flatout cost more than the car itself.

Unless you're VW, then your cars are tanks and last forever.

[cb7 calling]

Effff. About 20 mins after my last post I started my tsx with 20000 miles and heard what is likely the vtc ( after research). Disheartening.

[owequitit]

Not trying to be a smart Alec but I'm not comparing it to old Hondas. In defense of new Hondas reliability you have anything with a manual transmission and the tsx as good buys. I think I would put the tsx up against the cb.

We have had many old and new Hondas. Every new Honda has had issues of some sort, and several of the issues were related directly to quality of craftsmanship.

I wasn't trying to be a smart Alec either, but the data shows that Honda isn't as much of a leader in a lot of areas as they used to be.

And yes, some of their newer MT cars have issues too.

[foamypirate]

We have had many old and new Hondas. Every new Honda has had issues of some sort, and several of the issues were related directly to quality of craftsmanship.

I wasn't trying to be a smart Alec either, but the data shows that Honda isn't as much of a leader in a lot of areas as they used to be.

And yes, some of their newer MT cars have issues too.

Yep, MTs aren't immune. My brother's 08' V6-6MT Accord Coupe always had a 3rd gear issue (he was outside the TSB VIN range, so shit out of luck there). By 80,000 miles, he had to have the trans rebuilt because it wouldn't go into 1st, and occasionally 2nd. It wouldn't grind, just flat out wouldn't go into gear, like the gate wasn't even there.

[SOHC-FTW]

The new touring sports look good id drive one but they are pricy to me almost a 10k deference in models and honestly I don't see that.

[CyborgGT]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but the new Road & Track issue, with the CTR on the cover, is awesome. Half the book's dedicated to Japanese car culture.

Funny quote from the Civic review/comparison to 370Z & STi:

No torquey, front-drive econobox should feel this ruthlessly precise. "Honda" and "torquey," are words not generally found in the same sentence. The company's high-performance four-cylinders have historically been jewel-like masterpieces with screaming redlines, but many of them would be hard-pressed to twist the lid off a pickle jar.

Interestingly, this seems to be another car with more power than advertised. According to the article, "independent dyno tests on customer-delivered cars show the Type R making near 300hp at the wheels."

[h22sparkle]

I'd rather go for the Ford focus RS easily available and less fanboy hassle and attention love being the underdog.

[Raf99]

I'd rather go for the Ford focus RS easily available and less fanboy hassle and attention love being the underdog.

Well said.