Camber Kits a total myth for tire wear?

[Ispintechno]

So been reading various articles on the internet as I'm lowering a vehicle for the first time, I am reading that camber kits are actually not required what-so-ever for lowering our Honda's; Toe is the enemy for tire wear.

Drop it down, get an alignment for Toe, forget about camber. This actually kind of ticks me off as I bought the Pro Kit for the mild drop, no camber kit needed non sense. Damn.

How many of you are rocking lots of camber but have your toe fixed and have normal tire wear? Seems like a colossal conspiracy and a well kept secret on the surface (for us noobs anyway).

[ferenza]

You need a camber kit. Camber wears your tires unevenly whether if you had the toe set correctly or not. Nobody has shitloads of camber and will have normal tire wear.

Some people get harder compound tires to slow the camber wear but you will never eliminate it.Slight camber wont be noticed until the tire is almost gone. If you have the kit , put it on and fix your camber

[buzz11]

This can go into a big discussion but there is plenty of threads already covering camber, kits, toe and such. True that a camber kit is not required but it is recommended. Please post a link to the various articles that say camber kits are not required. I love to see where these sites are.

[Ispintechno]

This can go into a big discussion but there is plenty of threads already covering camber, kits, toe and such. True that a camber kit is not required but it is recommended. Please post a link to the various articles that say camber kits are not required. I love to see where these sites are.

First I ran into, looking at another Honda site and wham, found this article in the suspension section.

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2614449

Requote of OP:

2 March 2010 edit: Just to be clear, I made this thread to disspell the myths perpetuated by magazines and other sources since the mid-1990's that a camber kit is REQUIRED to prevent excessive tire wear after a car is lowered. This is a flat-out LIE! Please read on to see why.

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Well I guess this thread is long overdue, as I've had several requests to make a thread like this.

Despite the myths that have been perpetuated since the mid-90's, camber kits ARE NOT required to prevent uneven tire wear after lowering a Honda. Even the very first issue of Super Street magazine in 1996 talks about installed camber kits to prevent tire wear.

Here's what really happens. When you lower your Honda, especially those with double-wishbone suspension, the camber angle goes negative, but the front tires also toe out. That toe-out condition is what is important. Toe-out will destroy the inside edge of a tire MUCH faster than negative camber ever will, because the tire scrubs on the pavement as it rolls in a toe-out condition.

So the myth has been that you need a camber kit to bring the camber angle (non-adjustable on most Hondas) back to stock specs. So you install a kit, take the car to alignment shop, and *poof* no more tire wear. However, what really happened is that along with adjusting the camber, the shop also adjusted the toe. That toe adjustment is what REALLY saved your tires.

The truth of the matter is that you have made your car handle worse with straight-up zero camber (or close to it). It is also truth you can easily run -1.5, -2, -3, even close to -4 camber up front with very little tire wear issues. You just need to be sure to keep your alignment in check and rotate your tires every 5K miles or so. You should get an alignment at least once a year, or better twice a year if possible. All you need to do is get the toe adjusted back to stock specs. If the shop tries to sell you a camber kit, tell them no, just adjust the toe. If they say they can't do the alignment until you get a camber kit, then leave immediately and go to another shop because that is 100% COMPLETELY FALSE!

So let's talk about the "cons" of camber kits:

1 Cost, plus the extra cost of alignments every time (could be $150 or more)
2 Usually made of sub-par materials that rust, corrode, and seize up
3 Greatly reduces suspension travel clearance, both UCA replacements and just the bolt-type kits
4 Bolt-type kits are nearly impossible to keep straight and adjust correctly without throwing caster off
5 UCA-replacement kits often use POS ball joints and have even more reduced clearance under the fender
6 Likely to slip out of adjustment, requiring another expensive alignment


What are the "pros" of camber kits? Well you can add MORE negative camber than what you get from lowered suspension geometry alone, which can be good for track use. Other than that, I can't really think of anything.

One exception: A few relatively newer Honda models, such as the 96-00 Civic, the rear suspension has a pretty steep camber curve, and could benefit from slightly reducing the negative camber in the rear from what you get from a drop alone. I would recommend the replacement rear upper arm-type camber kits. Those use a turnbuckle-type adjustment that will not slip.

And now for some personal experience. I lowered my car back in early 2002 and had about -2* camber up front. I've been on various suspension setups since then with anywhere from -1.5* to -2.8* front camber and have NEVER used a camber kit. Since then I've driven about 175K miles, and I've only been through 5 or 6 sets of tires. I've always used V or W-rated summer tires, and they always last 30K-35K miles.

Now I do get a slight bit of inner wear, but I attribute that to my worn stock bushings that aren't keeping the toe in check like they should. I have all new bushings waiting to go in and I expect tire wear to be even less than before. But my tires do usually wear down past the wear bars before the inner edge shows any belts, so at that time it's time to replace the tires anyway.

I know there are many others on this site who can relate similar personal experiences. I'll let them chime in if they want.

Well that's about all I can think of to say. Hopefully this will help to dispel some of the myths. Hopefully I can help some people keep some extra money instead of wasting it all on camber kits and expensive alignments.

*edit* something else to add - lower profile tires will tend to wear a bit more on the inside edge with negative camber, even with proper alignment. I do get a bit more inner wear on my 205/45-16's than I did on my 195/55-15's or 205/50-15's. I would imagine 40-series tires would be worse. A taller sidewall can flex more, therefore more even pressure is maintained across the tread even with negative camber.

[Shadow1992]

Lot of people well tell you to take a grain of salt with any technical advice about our cars on that particular site.

[reklipz]

Whether or not you need a camber kit depends upon how much you lowered your car.

[91b20ed]

You need a camber kit. Camber wears your tires unevenly whether if you had the toe set correctly or not. Nobody has shitloads of camber and will have normal tire wear.

Some people get harder compound tires to slow the camber wear but you will never eliminate it.Slight camber wont be noticed until the tire is almost gone. If you have the kit , put it on and fix your camber

This^^^^^^

Ive done over 1000 alignments at least in my lifetime and camber definitely plays a role in tire wear. Tow is a big factor as well. But 2 to 4 degrees of negative is going to destroy the inside of your tires no mater what your tow setting. Period.

[IBCNYA]

No different than people that drag their feet when they walk, the heel of the shoe wears out faster than the rest. Same with tires, the part of the tire being used as the contact patch is the area thats gonna wear out faster.

[STOCKa6]

Another reason to buy the camber kit and do it right. Since having the camber off can cause uneven tire wear, obviously the tires are not making even contact with the road. It could prove to be a potentially dangerous handling issue if your tires aren't actually making full contact as they were designed to. Also not to mention a blow out if you ignore the uneven wear long enough, which I've seen happen.

[deevergote]

Walk on the insides of your shoes for a few weeks. See if the soles wear unevenly.

Everyone says "camber doesn't kill tires, toe does!"
That's like saying "knives don't kill people, guns do!"
Camber and toe are two completely different angles. Improperly aligned toe is responsible for the majority of tire wear between the two of them, yes... but negative camber WILL cause the inside of your tires to wear. Period. Negative camber AND bad toe will tear up a set of tires in a very short time.

STOCKa6 makes a very valid point. If you're riding on extreme negative camber (which is popular in the moronic "stanced" culture at the moment), you're riding on the side of the tire, not the primary contact patch. In an emergency, that could prove fatal.

[illinois_erik]

real world: h&r sport cup kit bottom most cup setting. directional tires with a rotation since damper install (this was front to back back to front, next time ill dismount and change insides to outsides) anyway..i put 40 highway miles a day 6 days a week on them, obviously the edge wear is a bit accelerated. These are throw away tires that Ive already put about 18,000 miles on. cooper zeon's 195/50/15 they cam with like a 11 or 13mm tread depth anyway. I have a slight driver caster issue so i have a slight pull at high speeds. Anyway these tires will get used up without wasting tread w/o the camber kit. On the other hand when I put on some 500$ BF goodriches the suspension will be specd out with the use of SPC front upper ball joints and wicked tuning rear upper turnbuckle CA's.. do you really need them..not really depending on the situation. any lower and the edges would probably be toast. The height Im at and the negligible camber I think helps with highspeed/ sharp cornering..thats my 2¢

['93CB7Ex]

just buy one. whats it gonna hurt? i had ebay coilovers and slammed on the ground. got an alignment, and 2 new tires. went to school one week about 700 miles and the tires were completely worn out. i mean to the point they popped. half the tire had wires showing. got a ingalls camber kit and never had problems since.

[Raf99]

This shouldn't even be a discussion really. Many factors involved (tire size, tire type, lowering height) and with the addition of each factor you will see more wear. speaking from personal experience this is no myth.

[Domesticated]

I've put 7k on my tires at -3 and I have zero camber wear. I was actually surprised when I checked.

[91b20ed]

Walk on the insides of your shoes for a few weeks. See if the soles wear unevenly.

Everyone says "camber doesn't kill tires, toe does!"
That's like saying "knives don't kill people, guns do!"
Camber and toe are two completely different angles. Improperly aligned toe is responsible for the majority of tire wear between the two of them, yes... but negative camber WILL cause the inside of your tires to wear. Period. Negative camber AND bad toe will tear up a set of tires in a very short time.

STOCKa6 makes a very valid point. If you're riding on extreme negative camber (which is popular in the moronic "stanced" culture at the moment), you're riding on the side of the tire, not the primary contact patch. In an emergency, that could prove fatal.

THIS^^^^^

Lol, this is an old and dull argument that shouldnt even exist anymore......... Ive seen 100 of these threads on various sites since 2004. blah.....