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Old 01-23-2011, 04:28 AM   #1
CyborgGT
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Talking CyborgGT: Mild H22A Build



The Goal

A bit unusual, but I'm building the engine first, then getting the car to put it in. I used to have a '92 LX sedan with an automatic H22A swap, but ran into an intermittent electrical problem I couldn't figure out and took that as an excuse to ditch the body and build the motor. Once it's eventually put back together, I'm dead-set on getting a '92-93 EX wagon with a factory manual transmission. I could be swayed to do an auto-manual conversion if a stupidly mint chassis popped up for sale, but I can be extremely patient when waiting for what I really want. I've been sitting on this "build" since October of 2012 and am still plenty motivated, if that says anything... although thinking about that date right now is making my progress feel kinda pathetic. Life - and poor money-holding habits - keep getting in the way!

The main goal with the build is to crack 200 lb-ft N/A (maybe be the first on the forum short of Bisi and 2point6?), but secretly I'm hoping to be able to keep up with a stock Evo/STi as well . If I can't accomplish that on the motor, maybe the future Prelude transmission with 4.6 final drive will help. I've seen cars in magazines with very similar build sheets making whp in the 250s, but none of those guys run at 5,000-14,000ft elevation, so we'll see what I can pull out of mine.


The Latest

10.12.17

Parts collection is now complete - with the exception of the ECU and tuning software, but when I get closer to dyno tuning I will talk to my tuner to see if he's able to tune with Neptune. Otherwise, I know that shop does a lot of work with Hondata. However, personal things need taking care of over the winter. Wagon shopping will begin in the Spring! Once that's in hand, the block and head need machine work (mainly a re-sleeve and port polish); then I'll assemble, perform the swap, and take it in for dyno tuning.




The Build



1997 H22A (closed deck)

First off, here are the sites I found the best deals at. Maybe it'll help someone...

> Euro Export Inc.
> Explicit Speed Performance
> HELM Inc.
> H Motors Online
> Import Replacement Parts
> JHPUSA
> Kteller
> Majestic Honda (OEM parts)
> Race Engineering
> Real St. Performamce
> Summit Racing



ELECTRONICS

- Hondata or Neptune... I'll see what my tuner prefers and pick this up closer to dyno day
- AEM gauges: UEGO, EGT, oil press., fuel press.

*Future custom dash gauge cluster to include volts & oil temp; that whole set will be by one, different, brand*


by D.Flinn, on Flickr


INTAKE

- K&N Apollo intake system for 70mm pipe
- AEM 70mm OD aluminum tubing for custom intake
- DEI gold heat tape 2"x30'
- Professional Products 68mm Power throttle body for ITR, polished
- H22 Euro-R/Type-R intake manifold prepped by Rosko Racing (68mm port match)
- Bisimoto thermal intake manifold gasket


by D.Flinn, on Flickr


FUEL

- Walbro 255lph pump w/install kit
- Rosko Racing rail
- Acura RDX 410cc OE injectors & pigtails
- AEM pressure regulator


by D.Flinn, on Flickr


HEAD

- Ishino/Stone (OEM) top-end gasket set
- ARP head studs
- Supertech machine hardened valve locks
- Supertech titanium spring retainers
- Supertech 79lb valve springs
- Supertech valve seals
- Supertech valve guides (Manganese Bronze intake, copper alloy exhaust)
- Supertech black nitrided dish valves
- New OEM valve spring seats
- Skunk2 Pro 2 cams
- Skunk2 Pro Black Series cam gears
- OEM manual timing tensioner conversion kit
- Skunk2 cam seal
- Skunk2 "Skunk2 Inside" VTEC solenoid cover


by D.Flinn, on Flickr


BLOCK

- Fel-Pro complete bottom-end gasket set
- Wiseco 11.5:1 pistons (re-sleeve, of course; one of my stock bores is scratched)
- Eagle H-beam rods
- ARP main studs
- ESP urethane mounts w/low-profile rear bracket
- ATI street damper





EXHAUST

- Spoon Sports stainless header primaries on OEM downpipe with 2.5" collector mod
- PLM HyTech knock-off 4-2-1 header (yup, I've got two to compare on the dyno; I expect the Spoon will perform like a DC)
- Vibrant 1197 EGT bung, stainless
- Vibrant 10355 merge collector, stainless 2.5"
- Vibrant 60804 "turbo" flex pipe, stainless 2.5"
- Vibrant 1194A O2 sensor bung x2, stainless
- Vibrant U-J scrap bends, stainless 2.5"
- Summit Racing 4' scrap straight, stainless 2.5"
- Catco 6906 cat, stainless 2.5"
- Vibrant 2.5" bottle resonator & 2.5" Ultra Quiet resonator - will experiment with both for sound
- Summit Racing 2.5" V-band connections x3
- Vibrant 2630 2.5-3" transition ("reducer")
- Kteller 3" stainless/mandrel piping
- Vibrant Street Power muffler, 3" in/dual 3.5" out



MISCELLANEOUS

- 1997 JDM H22A longblock
- '92 Accord service manual
- '92 Accord electrical troubleshooting manual
- '94 Prelude service manual
- EuroExportInc specialized valve spring compressor tool


"Slowly But Surely..."


by D.Flinn, on Flickr


- - - - -

My original question from way back, so the next few posts aren't confusing: I'm trying to do as thorough of research as possible before I start collecting parts to do an all-at-once NA build down the line. One specific part I've been looking at is Mahle's 11.5:1 piston. Has anyone with similar compression, teamed with aftermarket cams (thinking Bisi Lvl 2, so something with roughly that kind of lift), run into piston-to-valve clearance issues?
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Last edited by CyborgGT; 11-03-2017 at 04:31 PM. Reason: OP's intention is to facilitate a build, thus a build thread OP shall have.
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Old 01-25-2011, 12:52 PM   #2
CyborgGT
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Skool'd


Some stuff I found in my research, maybe it'll save future searchers some time...


The Internet Gurus...

Quote:
General info & advice for NA builds - a lot of this will cross over into boost builds as well.

> 98vtec Q&A
> Honda-Tech
> K1 Attack kit car owner using H22 power, discussing build tech
> Old CB7T header science talk
> accorn's build thread
> Intake & Exhaust Size - Enginology by Hot Rod Network
> AutoZine Technical School - covers every aspect of a car; very technical info
> Header-Exhaust Design Effects on Engine Power - the science behind specific header and exhaust system design features
> Exhaust Gast Temperature explained (related: EGT sensor placement if you're only using one probe)
> Harmonic Balancer Rather Than Billet [fluid] Pulley
> Professional Mil-Spec Motorsport ECU Wiring Harness Construction
On Honda FRM sleeves...

Quote:
HondaTuning article.
On Darton H22 sleeves...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darton

When you sleeve a H22 block whether it is closed or open the sleeves are the same. Depending on how much power you plan on making and how big a bore size you are going to run will determine which sleeve you will use.

If you have the H22a/a1 closed deck block and this is going to be a strip/street motor you can use the 300-018 sleeves for stock bore size. If you plan on building a straight drag motor and going with a large bore then you would use the MID sleeves.

There are acutally 3 different sleeves for the H22 blocks:

1. Repair sleeve 200-018. This is a straight sleeve primairly used for stock applications or to repair the block.

2. Flanged sleeve 300-018. This is a flanged sleeve with a lip at the top so the sleeves registers at the top for added support. This sleeve is good for mild horsepower builds street/strip.

3. MID 400-160-P. This is our phosphate coated MID wet sleeve. This is the top of the line sleeve that will handle anything you throw at it. Since it is a wet sleeve the sleeves are completely replaceable one at a time or all four at a time using the same block. This allows you to use the same block over and over again. The sleeve is also phosphate coated to help with anit-rust and anti-corrosion in the water jacket area.

source
On exhaust size...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdm92_accorn

The 2.5" straight section will keep the exhaust pulses close together which is better for scavenging but a 2.5" bend will not flow the same as a 2.5" straight pipe. The 3" starting at the bends allows for less restriction which helps against back pressure or reversion which will kill the scavenging effect. As far as it being loud, changing the rear section to 3" will deepen the exhaust note which can cause droning. Look into the 3" inlet world sport muffler, its much quieter and flows similar to the vibrant.
Wanting a Euro-R intake manifold? Looks like your only option is sourcing one second-hand...

Quote:
Conversation at Prelude Power:

Apex1972, Jan 4, 2013:
Is there any problem with availability on the euro r at this time?

Rosko, Feb 21, 2013:
Yeah, I've been waiting on an order since October, should be here soon but all are spoken for already. Another shipment is supposedly coming in several weeks behind that one but who knows. I deffinately cannot get as many as I would like.

CyborgGT, Dec 30, 2014:
^ Same question, but more up-to-date? Just want to make sure that "back order" notice [at RoskoRacing.com] is looked after.

Rosko, Dec 30, 2014:
I received 6 in the months shortly after that post and have not been able to get any since. I spoke with Steve spring of 2014 and told him to order 6 more for me, he said 2-3 months and I said OK get them coming. I pass this info on to my customers, some gave money up front and others waited patiently. After about 3 months I had not heard anything yet and gave him a call to find out that nothing had been ordered. I pretty much gave up after that and refunded my customers money or set them up with something else. I'm not sure what the deal is to be honest, but I couldn't keep promising my customers a date knowing that date was going to come and go. Everything about getting these over the past few years has been a struggle and even though my customers have been patient it always (in my eyes) makes me look like a dick. I can't do business like that. I don't want to have to call and check in every week and keep nagging on a company to get me what I need. If you tell me something will be here then make damn sure it is. 1 month always turns into 3-4 and finally I had enough. Sadly there aren't any other companies that import these (at least that I know of), there are a few that advertise them but I think what I figured out is that they just source them from H motors as well.

I still offer the same services if you are able to source your own, and I still produce all the a parts but from here on out I don't expect to ever stock these again.

There are other options though. I've developed an alternative over the past few years and that is the fabbed upper plenum and modified lower. These have proven to be the better option and I highly suggest you check those out if you haven't already.


source
Ideas in making a Bisimoto header less 'drag strip only', this would be worth testing for truth...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrisnick

24" is about the right length for a stock camshaft profile if I recall correctly. I'll have to read through my emails with Ghost to find out for sure. The biggest problem with that header design is that it's a 4-1; without secondaries, you're losing a LOT of mid-range torque. Not really a problem with an engine that is really only for drag racing, but below 4500rpm, it's probably sacrificing a good 10-15lbs/ft of torque. Secondaries with a 10-12" length would do wonders for that header as they'll boost torque and not sacrifice top end in any way; pairing of the cylinders doesn't matter as much on a 4-cylinder as you may think, so pairing F and R tubes, rather than R and L, would probably be best packaging wise. From what I can tell, it probably has 1.75" diameter primaries, which probably helps with velocity with those tight bends right off the flange like that. Collector design plays a big part as well, the Bisi collector actually looked like a fairly decent design, although 2.5" at the collector's exit was probably sacrificing some velocity for volume. Definitely some design vs manufacturing compromises in the header, but nothing that can't be worked around. The upper portion is a pretty good start, adding some good 2-1 collectors off upper, 10-12" long 2" diameter secondaries dumping into a final 2.25" 2-1 collector and tapering up to 2.5" would net big mid-range gains over the original 4-1 single collector design. It won't be cheap or easy(due to packaging concerns, probably the reason for the single 4-1 collector in the first place), but would be a great way to have a quality header for under about $1000 all invested. Heat and velocity that far upstream in the exhaust system are your friend.

source
Can you use a USDM oil pump on a JDM block? I e-mailed the H22 specialists at KSTuned.com. As of 10.12.2017, Majestic Honda appears to only carry oil pumps for later fifth-gen Preludes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaizenspeed

All of the H22 oil pumps are interchangeable, USDM or JDM. The H22A4 pump is the cheapest from the dealer, and it has provisions for the OBD2 crank sensor's. We supply the USDM OBD2 H22A4 pump with our balance shaft eliminator/pump kit.
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Last edited by CyborgGT; 11-03-2017 at 04:25 PM.
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Old 01-25-2011, 01:46 PM   #3
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U should b ok. With that high compression and only the level 2, there shouldn't be any problems. As long as you don't mill the head.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:05 PM   #4
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I read in HondaTuning of Crower Stage 3s creating issues with those pistons (taller springs and retainers were needed), so naturally I'm paranoid about any aftermarket lobes. Bisi 2s are supposed to be fairly mild though, I suppose. Thanks.
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Old 01-25-2011, 03:09 PM   #5
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bisi lvl 2

I haven't looked at the specs on the bisi cam, but I would imagine they are around that of the s2 pro 1 series. There is one guy on here claiming to run those came with type s piston.

The type s piston have very shadow valve relief, so if his works I think you should be ok.

I don't know how far away this is but I will be keeping an eye on it if you are going with the bisi cam. For a while I have been fighting to decide between the s2p1 and bisi cams.

Bisi has a good track record with came, but they have not been proven, at least that I have seen, to make the power of the s2p1.
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Old 01-27-2011, 01:37 AM   #6
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No, it won't be for quite a while (I'm not touching a credit card, I save up for what I want). There are other areas of the car I want to take care of first. In the mean time, I don't think it's possible to do too much research. Except for the exhaust, I want to do an all-at-once build, collecting all the parts and setting them aside until that point when I can work on the motor and get it tuned in one fell swoop. Luckily there's a tuning shop in town with a ton of experience with Hondas. So far my plans for power delivery are as follows:

H22A
P28
Hondata S300

AEM short ram intake
Euro-R intake manifold
Bisimoto heat-shielding intake manifold gasket

Adjustable cam gears
Valve springs & titanium retainers
Bisimoto Level 2 cams
Mahle 11.5:1 pistons
Connecting rods
ARP head+main studs

Bisimoto header
Kteller 2.5" stainless steel CB Accord exhaust piping kit
Magnaflow 2.5" cat
Vibrant 2.5" Ultra Quiet resonator**
Magnaflow 2.5" stainless muffler

M2B4
Carbonetic carbon ATS 1.5-way LSD
Carbonetic 4.643 final drive gear set
Short shift

**Side story: I might go for two of these resonators. There's a 9091 coupe in town (guy's not on here), says he built his F to beat the diesel pickups on cruise night. Still not too quick, but his exhaust is loud as hell at WOT. I watched a car following him to record some pulls. A cop pulled out of a side street and got on his ass quick-like. Didn't pull him over, but I am definitely wanting to keep my presence to a minimum. I want a nice deep tone, but the volume at about 6.

The theme of my build is mild autocross/circuit racing abilities (under ~250whp) in a daily driver so I'm jumping around, doing 'phases' of a little power here, some handling improvements there, and general restorations along the way. A reliable motor is important, so it's getting strengthened whether it really needs it or not. I don't want to get too caught up in one aspect of the car for too long and get bored with it, hence the phases... honestly, I have a rough 'schedule of events' made up . It's a very long process, but I don't think I'll ever want to get rid of my Accord.

H-swap and springs/shocks this year, and try to get started on the exhaust by next Spring. Hopefully I'll have a better paying job by then as well and get the ball rolling faster.
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Last edited by CyborgGT; 01-27-2011 at 02:14 AM.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:11 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyborgGT View Post
No, it won't be for quite a while (I'm not touching a credit card, I save up for what I want). There are other areas of the car I want to take care of first. In the mean time, I don't think it's possible to do too much research. Except for the exhaust, I want to do an all-at-once build, collecting all the parts and setting them aside until that point when I can work on the motor and get it tuned in one fell swoop. Luckily there's a tuning shop in town with a ton of experience with Hondas. So far my plans for power delivery are as follows:

H22A
P28
Hondata S300

AEM short ram intake
Euro-R intake manifold
Bisimoto heat-shielding intake manifold gasket

Adjustable cam gears
Valve springs & titanium retainers
Bisimoto Level 2 cams
Mahle 11.5:1 pistons
Connecting rods
ARP head+main studs

Bisimoto header
Kteller 2.5" stainless steel CB Accord exhaust piping kit
Magnaflow 2.5" cat
Vibrant 2.5" Ultra Quiet resonator**
Magnaflow 2.5" stainless muffler

M2B4
Carbonetic carbon ATS 1.5-way LSD
Carbonetic 4.643 final drive gear set
Short shift

**Side story: I might go for two of these resonators. There's a 9091 coupe in town (guy's not on here), says he built his F to beat the diesel pickups on cruise night. Still not too quick, but his exhaust is loud as hell at WOT. I watched a car following him to record some pulls. A cop pulled out of a side street and got on his ass quick-like. Didn't pull him over, but I am definitely wanting to keep my presence to a minimum. I want a nice deep tone, but the volume at about 6.

The theme of my build is mild autocross/circuit racing abilities (under ~250whp) in a daily driver so I'm jumping around, doing 'phases' of a little power here, some handling improvements there, and general restorations along the way. A reliable motor is important, so it's getting strengthened whether it really needs it or not. I don't want to get too caught up in one aspect of the car for too long and get bored with it, hence the phases... honestly, I have a rough 'schedule of events' made up . It's a very long process, but I don't think I'll ever want to get rid of my Accord.

H-swap and springs/shocks this year, and try to get started on the exhaust by next Spring. Hopefully I'll have a better paying job by then as well and get the ball rolling faster.
An FYI since ur replacing the exaughst im def certain I read a post that the h22's respond to 3" exaughst gusse it was proven for like 7whp on dyno I thought. I cant find the page ... But since ur replacing the exaughst and going with ketteller exaughst system I reccomend the 3" unless of course it outragously spensive :P
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:20 PM   #8
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Old 02-10-2011, 09:55 PM   #9
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^^ The money I don't care about, it can be re-earned. I'm hesitant about 3 inches of exhaust because I don't want a really loud car. The book, Honda/Acura Engine Performance states that 2.5" is ideal for H22s, and I've read on here and in mag articles that 3" is better. Since I'm not trying to go all-out with horsepower I think I'll stick with 2.5.
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Old 02-10-2011, 11:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyborgGT View Post
^^ The money I don't care about, it can be re-earned. I'm hesitant about 3 inches of exhaust because I don't want a really loud car. The book, Honda/Acura Engine Performance states that 2.5" is ideal for H22s, and I've read on here and in mag articles that 3" is better. Since I'm not trying to go all-out with horsepower I think I'll stick with 2.5.
If you run a acual 3" cat and a quiet tip... It couldnt be much louder... Could it?
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Old 02-11-2011, 01:41 AM   #11
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Don't know. It seems to be a noticeable gain in noise just going from 2 to 2.5 though, based on most videos I've seen. And I really don't want my car to be loud.
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Old 02-11-2011, 09:56 PM   #12
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3"

I Went from a 60mm to 3 inch and it was definetly louder. I am running one resonator and a baffled muffler, so it isn't too bad, but it is louder.

Also 3" has been shown to produce gains over 2.5" on the h22.
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:57 AM   #13
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H22A: Mild All-Motor Rebuild, Random Questions

*poof*
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Last edited by CyborgGT; 01-25-2013 at 04:07 PM. Reason: A thread I forgot about was combined, I'm just movin my NEW original post to the top
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:17 AM   #14
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Since your doing an n/a build, you can get a thinner head gasket to give compression a slight bump... Throw in some cams, springs, and flat faced valves and you can have a great high comp brawler. All those things can be bought from Bisimoto.com for a relatively decent price. I strongly urge the use of head studs if your bumping compression. As for the rest of the gaskets, felpro should have a "conversion" set that contains all your bottom end gaskets and you can easily piece together the rest
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Old 09-15-2012, 10:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CyborgGT View Post
I figure I'll definitely go to the dealer for a head gasket, but who do you guys trust for the rest... that doesn't charge like a dealer? Quality at a good price?

Send me a PM for what you need. I'll give you my price, which I believe is about 15%-20% off retail. Just pay for shipping.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpoppa694lyfe
Since your doing an n/a build, you can get a thinner head gasket to give compression a slight bump...
The risk/reward for that isn't worth it. The compression bump is very slight and hardly noticeable except on a dyno sheet. It's not worth the possibility of piston slap. 17.0:1 Pistons and everything else in between already exist for the H22, add in the flat faced valves and he's got another 0.5:1. Stick with the OEM and whatever compression he wants he can find with the appropriate piston set.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:39 PM   #16
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:54 PM   #17
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Get the block and heads mating surfaces milled flat. They warp and distort over time and it should be done when rebuilding to ensure the head gasket has even pressure distributed across it.

Head studs id consider optional unless the car was race only build using over 11:1 compression. But its nice to do it while your there. If i had to choose i would take a ported head over the head studs if you mill/deck your setup.

Exhaust ports would be a larger priority than intake IMO. So if porting a head and you could only afford certain stages of port jobs take the higher stage on the exhaust, and maybe even oversized valves. Combine that with a good exhaust system and your VE(voulmetric efficiency) should improve. Over doing the intake @ a higher stage.

Get a very large throttle body, not a spacer. It should also meet the plenum seamlessly.

Portmatch all intake/ exhaust connections.

Coat your exhaust system in high temp paint. I used bbq grill paint. It helps keep heat down in he engine bay and doesnt let the exhaust lose as much heat, and should help keep the velocity up. If nothing else it keeps the system rust free.
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Old 09-16-2012, 01:57 AM   #18
CyborgGT
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Location: Colorado
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bigpoppa: Felpro doesn't list a thing as far as Prelude VTEC gaskets are concerned.

Joey: I need EVERYTHING, top to bottom. I'm doing a full re-build, so there's no point in leaving anything untouched. There's no deadline for this build, so I'm fine with waiting while I save up money for parts. I will definitely keep you in mind. I assume your discounts are just with OEM parts?

GunRunner: Thanks for the link. I've always gone to ImportRP.com, their prices are almost always lower than anyone else's even though you have to spend $100 before you get free shipping. I'll take a look around TunerSports, thanks!

MortsAccord: While I'm doing a ton of research, I can never have enough build tips. Thanks for all that. I was thinking about going for Type-S pistons (11:1), and InlineFour carries compatible aftermarket rods from I think Eagle. Re-sleeving is an option (and tempting, with FRM's infamous oil burning issues), but I'm desperately unfamiliar with changing or matching up sleeve diameters, over-sized pistons, and such. As for the exhaust, that's a cool trick with the paint, even though the full system will be stainless steel.

The exhaust plans, by the way, are HyTech header, Catco cat, Vibrant UQ resonator/flanges/gaskets/hardware, HyTech Twin Loop muffler, and Kteller piping. All 2.5". I'm hoping for about 230whp, and after looking at build lists in magazines and online, it doesn't look like that'll be too difficult even if I leave most of the detailed internal work stock. There's a local tuner with a lot of Honda experience, so before picking up any strict power parts I'll talk to them about what I can do while keeping the car street and emissions friendly like I want.
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Last edited by CyborgGT; 02-23-2017 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 09-16-2012, 02:43 AM   #19
MortsAccord
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Resleeve always makes me think about boost. FRM eats rings, which increases oil consumption.

If you go through a resleeve why not boost it i say. You can probably get molybdenum rings (the only rings id use in FRM sleeves) and reuse stock pistons. Unless frm compatible pistons are cheaper now.

If you reuse stock pistons, clean and polish the domes to a mirror finish if you can. Tape up the rest of the piston so it doesn't get bumped or scraped up. You can check the pistons vs deck height in the block, and if wanted they can mill the block down some. I dont know what the limit is. The other thing you can do is run a longer rod. Better rod bolts in stock rods helps as well, and you can have stock rods shotpeened, or simply by better rods. Gotta weigh whats available.
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Old 09-16-2012, 03:03 PM   #20
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I'm doing an h22 all motor build right now. Mahle makes a FRM compatible piston. My cylinders were pretty scratched up, so I went with a .25mm overbore.

Inline Pro did the overbore and hone for $350 which I didn't think was that bad since almost every shop I contacted said no as soon as I brought up FRM.

My goal is 220-230whp so if you have any other questions feel free to PM me.
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