CB7Tuner Forums

Go Back   CB7Tuner Forums > Parts & Performance > Performance Tech > Naturally Aspirated

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 23 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 09-16-2012, 05:03 PM   #21
PR CB7
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the sky
Posts: 2,993
PR CB7 is cool... so far.
Send a message via MSN to PR CB7
230whp is achievable

so far experience i've gained from builds is
to get 240whp, 11.5 mahle slugs, skunk pro2, gears, skunk mani +70mm tb and kidd racing header

and to get 280whp,darton m.i.d, 13.1 JE k24 pistons,f22 bottom skunk mani, 70mmtb, skunk pro3, gears, ferrea, kidd racing header

so with some mahle's and pro2 you should be pretty good, although the only downfall i saw on using skunk cams is forget about your low-end, these cams really shine @vtec, a type s cam will show better numbers on low-cam
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote View Post
Just do what PR CB7 said.

"I'm Going For Wood" (Clickey Clickey)
PR CB7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 12:02 AM   #22
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyborgGT View Post
Joey: I need EVERYTHING, top to bottom. I'm doing a full re-build, so there's no point in leaving anything untouched. There's no deadline for this build, so I'm fine with waiting while I save up money for parts. I will definitely keep you in mind. I assume your discounts are just with OEM parts?
I have some access to aftermarket, it just takes a while to get that kind of stuff in. I will talk to some of my other parts guys around the country to see if they can do better, because some parts depts are more "tuner friendly" than others. I'm going to assume that you're not going to order all of this stuff at once, so just PM me the first batch of items you're looking for and I'll check them out.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 01:20 AM   #23
CyborgGT
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,484
CyborgGT is cool... so far.
Thanks, Joey. I just picked up another car to daily during all of this, so once I know where my budget will sit with the new bills, I'll get in touch with you.

Isn't nearing 12:1 where pump gas starts becoming risky? It'll be a street car with only occasional road course, and hopefully autocross, use. With that in mind, I was wanting to stay near 11:1, and also have decent low-end power. Cams I'm still looking into but probably Crower Stage 2's and springs/retainers no matter what, and Euro-R manifold (I was originally thinking about going K-series RRC, but supposedly shorter runners are bad for low-end power). Tuning bits like pump/injectors and cam gears will be in there. Converting to coil-on-plug with AEM V2 I think would be a cool mod, too - since I want a RyWire harness anyway, they could integrate the COP system if I do go that route.
__________________
Project CB9 AeroR start-up: //////////
Slowly but surely... and gunning for that NA list!
My Wheel Well
CyborgGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 01:39 AM   #24
MortsAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Huntington WV.
Posts: 291
MortsAccord is cool... so far.
If your going to go cop just get a sds-efi system. Id stay at <11:1 crap though. If a suppliers cam makes bad low end tq on a VTEC engine I wouldn't even think about using it. That totally defeats the purpose of VTEC.

I wouldn't mess with the intake manifold, id just make sure all flashing is removed, and all mating surfaces have smooth seamless transitions.

Last edited by MortsAccord; 09-17-2012 at 01:46 AM.
MortsAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 02:03 AM   #25
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by CyborgGT
Isn't nearing 12:1 where pump gas starts becoming risky?
Not necessarily, it's all in the tune. I have a buddy who runs 12.5:1 plus 10 lbs of boost off of a .82 A/R. He has a talented tuner though. If you have a daily though, you could possibly consider e85 or 100oct, but 93 could still be used. I would say though to definitely keep it under 13.5:1. But the best opinion you should get is from your tuner. They can tell you what they can offer you in terms of streetability.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MortsAccord
Id stay at <11:1 crap though.
So with it being a JDM H22 you're pretty much telling him to not build his bottom end?
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 02:19 AM   #26
MortsAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Huntington WV.
Posts: 291
MortsAccord is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey GT-R View Post
Not necessarily, it's all in the tune. I have a buddy who runs 12.5:1 plus 10 lbs of boost off of a .82 A/R. He has a talented tuner though. If you have a daily though, you could possibly consider e85 or 100oct, but 93 could still be used. I would say though to definitely keep it under 13.5:1. But the best opinion you should get is from your tuner. They can tell you what they can offer you in terms of streetability.




So with it being a JDM H22 you're pretty much telling him to not build his bottom end?
I meant to say CR.

You cant run that cr on pump gas without having poor ignition tables. What you end up with is barely any power over a lesser cr build, while making the engine take a beating for it.

Don't forget this is a daily driver on pump gas. Also japan engines run off a slightly higher rated fuel, they don't use our (r+m)/2 method either.

No offense but I also hate that "streetable" term. Its used poorly and confuses new enthusiast. Streetable is any car you can run on the road on fuel available at a gas station/pump. A cars lightweight flywheel wont make it any harder to drive for example. It wont ruin its "streetability" lol, neither will a high rpm build or a massive turbo setup. Only if it goes out of the scope of fuel that is available for a "street" car.

I bet that high CR boosted build doesn't run pump gas either. Maybe E85, but even that's pushing it /w what you said.

As for gear and power, JDM means nothing. Even more so since he's rebuilding it.

Remember the only reason new mazda cars get away with factory 9.1:1 cr and boost is because of coil on plug+ direct port fuel injection.

Last edited by MortsAccord; 09-17-2012 at 02:26 AM.
MortsAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 02:46 AM   #27
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
I don't follow you on the ignition tables logic; that sounds like more of a tuning issue than with the setup itself.

By your definition, I used "Streetable" in the correct verbage. It's all on his would-be tuner's abilities. What one tuner can do, another may not be able to. If his believes he can do a 14:1 on 93, than that's his limit. If he says he can only do 11.5:1 on 93, than that's his limit, unless he finds a different tuner. But again according to your definition, if e85 or 100 octane is available in his area, then it would still be considered "Streetable".

And you are right in a way, my friend tuned on 100 octane, but he drives around on 93 due to the cost of fuel. He has noted a slight decrease in power but not enough for him to care. He whoops on just about anything. By his definition, " it's a matter of 3.5 car lengths vs 5". So again, his car would be "Streetable".

Not sure where you're going with the Mazda argument, other than to say that they suck at building cars because they need coil-on-plug and direct injection to make a reliable turbo motor....Honda has proven years ago that they didn't.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 01:09 AM   #28
CyborgGT
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,484
CyborgGT is cool... so far.
E85 is readily available in my city, but I'm not wanting to convert. I like being able to drive anywhere.
__________________
Project CB9 AeroR start-up: //////////
Slowly but surely... and gunning for that NA list!
My Wheel Well
CyborgGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 08:48 AM   #29
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
There's nothing wrong with 93. Just make sure you ask your tuner. But you should easily be able to run 12.0:1. With the altitude up there, maybe I'm thinking wrong, but shouldn't you be able to run more? Or is it the opposite and it's harder to tune?
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 08:14 PM   #30
19dabeast85
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Carolina's
Posts: 2,271
19dabeast85 is cool... so far.
The higher the altitude the higher octane rating needed...all other variables constant. With some older cars (especially Ford Triton engines prone to carbon buildup) taking a trip to the mountains requires 89 or 91 gas to prevent pinging, detonation.
__________________
My Member's Ride Thread

Bisimoto header before & after dyno

1993 10th Anniversary: F22a6, H23IM, Bisimoto header, Custom mandrel exhaust, 5spd swap.
19dabeast85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 05:46 PM   #31
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
So in other words, he might want to keep it at 11.5:1? If all other variables constant, a 12.5:1 motor in Florida would be fine on 93, but in Colorado it might require 100?
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2012, 06:24 PM   #32
19dabeast85
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Carolina's
Posts: 2,271
19dabeast85 is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey GT-R View Post
So in other words, he might want to keep it at 11.5:1? If all other variables constant, a 12.5:1 motor in Florida would be fine on 93, but in Colorado it might require 100?
It all depends on the tuner, you can tune a 12.5:1 on 93 safely in Colorado....but it won't make the power of the exact same setup tuned in FL. e85 is in pretty much every city now, you could safely tune 13:1 at higher altitudes and squeeze the max out.
__________________
My Member's Ride Thread

Bisimoto header before & after dyno

1993 10th Anniversary: F22a6, H23IM, Bisimoto header, Custom mandrel exhaust, 5spd swap.
19dabeast85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #33
CyborgGT
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,484
CyborgGT is cool... so far.
Okay, before I go pouring money into parts I guess I should make sure I know what exact engine I have. Does the "No.3 97" stamp behind the header mean I have a 1997 H22A? And are there going to be any slight differences between JDM and USDM engines of the same model year? Like for instance, I can't remember which ones were open deck or closed deck. I want to be sure anything I get from Majestic or HondaPartsUnlimited will work for me.

But it's out now!

__________________
Project CB9 AeroR start-up: //////////
Slowly but surely... and gunning for that NA list!
My Wheel Well
CyborgGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2012, 02:14 PM   #34
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Yes you have a 97 H22A1. I believe the compression on that is still 10:1. As far as I know, all USDM H22As were open deck. Only the JDMs came in a closed deck variant. Parts will all be the same regardless of the deck. You will have OBD2 specific parts of course but other than that mechanically they are the same. But the closed deck form is regarded as being better for boost. However that "issue" can be solved by simply sleeving the motor.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 01:23 AM   #35
CyborgGT
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,484
CyborgGT is cool... so far.
Mine is JDM. I've always known them to be 10.6:1, and some searching reported that all 97-01 motors were open-deck, while all pre-97 models were closed-deck. The engine came with all the OBD1 parts (obviously; I had it running), but had what I figured to be an OBD2 intake manifold, which would make sense now that I know the block's a '97 too. Now, is a block guard a worth-while investment or should I not worry about that with such little power? Or is out-of-roundness really an issue with age?
__________________
Project CB9 AeroR start-up: //////////
Slowly but surely... and gunning for that NA list!
My Wheel Well

Last edited by CyborgGT; 09-21-2012 at 01:32 AM.
CyborgGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2012, 09:56 AM   #36
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Okay, I didn't realize you had a JDM motor. Then yes, 10.6:1-11.0:1 is the range of the JDM engines. But I nor anyone I've known has been able to decode the pattern in which the higher compression H22As are produced. My JDM H22A has 11.1:1 actually, and it's a 94. But I'm not sure why.

A block guard is really like a "band-aid" to your "problem". The block guard is only at the top of the block, it doesn't fill in all the space in the water jacket all the way down. Block guards can leak, and cause issues. While I've never experienced this problem personally, I have seen it occur on many B-Series setups, because to my knowledge they are all open deck as a shortcut to sleeving. However I've never seen an H-Series do it, and when the block guards fail it was all due to forced induction, not an all motor setup. And I've only seen block guards used for boosted builds period. For your build I wouldn't bother. If you want to do any kind of major build, more than likely you need to sleeve, and not add a block guard.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 12:49 AM   #37
MortsAccord
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Huntington WV.
Posts: 291
MortsAccord is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joey GT-R View Post
Okay, I didn't realize you had a JDM motor. Then yes, 10.6:1-11.0:1 is the range of the JDM engines. But I nor anyone I've known has been able to decode the pattern in which the higher compression H22As are produced. My JDM H22A has 11.1:1 actually, and it's a 94. But I'm not sure why.

A block guard is really like a "band-aid" to your "problem". The block guard is only at the top of the block, it doesn't fill in all the space in the water jacket all the way down. Block guards can leak, and cause issues. While I've never experienced this problem personally, I have seen it occur on many B-Series setups, because to my knowledge they are all open deck as a shortcut to sleeving. However I've never seen an H-Series do it, and when the block guards fail it was all due to forced induction, not an all motor setup. And I've only seen block guards used for boosted builds period. For your build I wouldn't bother. If you want to do any kind of major build, more than likely you need to sleeve, and not add a block guard.

Block guards don't leak. Gaskets do, a absent minded install could cause some cyln warping, but it would have to e on the edge of complete ignorance for the guard itself to cause a leak.

Im for them if you do it right. Few people heat cycle their blocks and then have them bored. But they are in no way as strong as sleeving. It just depends on the cost to the builder/enthusiast. If you can get a guard installed right for 200 including overbore, decking the block, line boreing and milling the head because you know people. Screw sleeves unless you got extra money or obsess over a prefect build.

Water jackets only become a real problem when the guard is installed too close to the top of the block. Any closed deck engine runs hotter than an open deck, block guarded engines aren't as bad as a closed deck as far as cooling goes.
MortsAccord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 11:07 AM   #38
Joey GT-R
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 1,793
Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock! Joey GT-R has a HUGE cock!
Send a message via AIM to Joey GT-R Send a message via MSN to Joey GT-R Send a message via Yahoo to Joey GT-R
Quote:
Originally Posted by MortsAccord View Post
Block guards don't leak. Gaskets do, a absent minded install could cause some cyln warping, but it would have to e on the edge of complete ignorance for the guard itself to cause a leak.

Im for them if you do it right. Few people heat cycle their blocks and then have them bored. But they are in no way as strong as sleeving. It just depends on the cost to the builder/enthusiast. If you can get a guard installed right for 200 including overbore, decking the block, line boreing and milling the head because you know people. Screw sleeves unless you got extra money or obsess over a prefect build.

Water jackets only become a real problem when the guard is installed too close to the top of the block. Any closed deck engine runs hotter than an open deck, block guarded engines aren't as bad as a closed deck as far as cooling goes.
I'll take your word on it.

Since he's not doing a crazy build I believe the block guard isn't necessary. If anything he can do a Darton Dry or Wet Sleeve for around $700 installed. He can bore those out to 88-90mm without worrying about weakening the integrity of the sleeves. But I would like him to crack his open to see if he is even open deck in the first place. I've never seen a 97 JDM block before.....he might have the only option of sleeving. But he might be right in that it is open deck regardless of USDM or JDM.
__________________
'94 JDM H22A: 178whp 146wtq

Quote:
Originally Posted by deevergote
If you say double dutch rudder, i'm banning you...
Joey GT-R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-23-2012, 11:44 AM   #39
Jarrett
Contributing Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Denton, TX
Posts: 5,297
Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool... Jarrett . You'll never be this cool...
Send a message via AIM to Jarrett
Any H22A manufactured after 1996 has an open deck design. Regardless of whether it came from the US, Canada, Japan, Europe, Australia or Antarctica.
__________________
.
If you see any threads or posts of mine whose picture links are broken (there are a lot), please send me a link to the thread. I will gladly fix them. I don't see it as a fruitless burden. This site has helped give me quite a bit of my drive and passion for cars, and fixing my picture links is the least I can do to give back.
.
Jarrett is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-03-2012, 10:55 PM   #40
CyborgGT
CB7tuner Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,484
CyborgGT is cool... so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpoppa694lyfe View Post
As for the rest of the gaskets, felpro should have a "conversion" set that contains all your bottom end gaskets and you can easily piece together the rest
I did end up finding this kit, and for a pretty good price. Arrived in the mail today. I also picked up an engine stand yesterday so I can start taking the engine apart and cleaning everything up in preparation for the build.

One thing about my build that's had me nervous is upgrading the fuel system. I know nothing about supplying fuel to any amount of power, and the different specs of injectors, pumps, and FPRs. Once the gaskets are taken care of, I think I'll go ahead piecing together the exhaust system since I'm sure of what I want. That bill is going to be a doosy.
__________________
Project CB9 AeroR start-up: //////////
Slowly but surely... and gunning for that NA list!
My Wheel Well

Last edited by CyborgGT; 10-03-2012 at 10:58 PM.
CyborgGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.