f22a turbo with water/menthanol max hp

[98vtec]

I use mitutoyo machinist tools. For measuring bearing thickness, you need rounded anvils on both ends to get an accurate measurement.

Make sure they can measure down to .0001 or lower. My bearing thickness mic can measure down to .00001, is digital and was about $200.

[deevergote]

Im not an engineer of thermal expansion. Its correct that both(ring and piston) will expand as hp/boost increases due to heat etc etc. For me, its hard to say what will expand more the rings or pistons. From what Ive researched rings are made of steel or high carbide steel with moly or nitrile or something. Im sure your oem rings are not made of these. I could be wrong. Not cutting anyones words or being an egotistical smart ass. Just here to learn all i can about anything or everything. Oem pistons are mainly aluminum and rings are cast or steel. So judging that aluminum soaks heat and expands more than both cast and steel. It leads me to conclude that the pistons expands more than the rings, due to difference of thermal expansion of different metals. If i'm right more than factory hp from boost etc etc will expand the pistons causing pistons to push the rings out into a oval form instead of rings maintaining its circular form. That oval form will make the ring most outer end gaps hit the sleeves and scuff it and seat unevenly with ringlands. So we should increase piston to wall by .004"-.006" like what they do for forged pistons to avoid p2w issues.

Or if the case was vice verse, the rings will expand more than the pistons causing rings to bite into the ringland, pistons and themselves. Then semi weld itself into ringlands and cause failure. I guess either way its a shit hole unless we where to increase piston to wall by like say .004"-.006" and increase end gaps. Guess the water vapor from meth/ water injection will not only decrease. minimize detonation but also carry heat away with it. Resulting in less thermal expansion.

First its best to replace rings with a more sophisticated ring with better materials. Then its best to slightly increase p2w clearance and slightly increase end gap and use water/ meth. But then agian if engine is already disassembled one should just forge and get it all over with.

"MY" personal theory to this is without the other factors such as oil vapors, tuning, detonation etc etc involved due to say a properly tuned water methanol kit was used and installed.

bottom line is hp/ tq kills no matter what.

wish we where all rich and had time on our hands to test out everything multiple times then come up with a single strong conclusion. if only if only. damn variables wish we could keep them constant

correct me if im wrong guys as i want any info that helps me visualize how rings work!!!

It's true that increasing power kills engines... though many factory-turbo engines can last a VERY long time making respectable power. Sure, they're built for that purpose... but that doesn't mean that we can't do the same!

I once had an experienced engine builder tell me about a 600+hp turbo H22A he built. He explained that since forged pistons intended for use with turbo are designed to expand, the cold-start idle of a properly built turbo engine has piston slap, and sounds much like a diesel (he was Irish... I still remember how he pronounced "diesel" ) That is primarily due to the silicon content of the pistons (high silicon content = strong but brittle, good for tight clearances in N/A applications. low silicon content = strong, but they expand, good for boost... leaves loose clearances, which will eventually eat up cylinder walls.)

HOWEVER, I don't know the actual makeup of 4G63t pistons, but the 4G63t came with 200 turbocharged horsepower in stock form, and has been known to hold a good deal more. The pistons are cast aluminum. I don't believe ring lands have ever been a significant issue. Those pistons happen to fit in our F22A engines, too...
Also, the 2JZ-GTE has cast pistons as well, and is very well known to hold a considerable amount of power (one could say that it makes a considerable amount of power in stock form!)

While proper forged pistons are best, they're definitely not the end-all. Just the easiest way to tell someone how to build an engine that will last. Using the 4G63t pistons in an F22A would probably allow for a very reliable 250whp, assuming a competent build and tune.

Ultimately, the issue isn't necessarily an inherent weakness... but the fact that the design didn't take such abuse into consideration. Be it the pistons or the rings, failure is probable.



ANYWAY, back on topic... what sort of meth injection kit would you be using? In my research regarding the nature of 4G63 and 2JZ pistons, I came across a stock-block Supra project that used meth injection. They fried a stock piston due to an uneven methanol distribution from their single-nozzle setup. That may not be an issue with the F22A, as the design is drastically different... but even distribution is something to consider (I know it has been a potential issue with single-fogger nitrous applications in the past.)

[98vtec]

Methanol is a heavier molecule which is why it doesn't necessarily move like the air does. That's something you have to watch by reading plugs and making necessary fueling and ignition changes to individual cylinders.

[f22ax_Rocks]

98vtec: yeah heard good things about mitutoyo. Im going to keep my eyes on those for that one day.

Deevergote: I'm going to use AEM V2 INJECTION kit. It was crap before but heard they made it better now like snow and devils own to not allow fluid run on etc etc. I would prefer snow or devils own but I've had good results with aem and their wide bands so I'm going to give its injection kit a try. Will be mounting it perpendicular to charged pipes and what other way they rec and determine which nozzle is best for my application. Its been a while since I read up on installation. Will need to refresh. Pipes will be as straight as possible with about 5-7" away from throttle body and no bends or corners after. Hope that'll help distribute it evenly and have more time to cool air. Then take Afr reading of before and after activation. The only bend will be after throttle body. Going to try to angle throttle body so that the air gets directed I to manifold in certain angle to evenly distribute incoming charged air. And possibly flipping my throttle body upside down to that when slightly opened it hits the outer end of plenium and not cyl #4 first. I figure if I can try to massage the air to flow as evenly as possible I won't worry to much about uneven cyl being filled. Save up for a tig then make my own tapered intake Mani using trumphets inside.

Yeah I was researching reading plugs and it seems two articles have something very different to say about reading plugs. Since I have to redesign my turbo Mani I'm going to weld each runner with a fitting for a get and use get as reference just in case wideband is slightly off. Egt will be like a second eye. Try to control variables as much as possible and do pulls and note every difference of temps i get in each runner. Would be nice if I could run 4 egt but that money I could use for precise tools and a tig welder.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Guys, what's your opinion on reading plugs. Article #1 says to have Ideal ign timing color on ground strap must be at the bend of ground strap. After bend too adv and before bend to retarded. And to read heat range u look at threads where plug threads into head. article #2 says the color change on strap near to where the strap is welded to the plug means plug is too cold. Color change towards highest point right above electrode means too hot. Amd dont use the strap to indocate timing. Both articles I read are confusing. Then most likely the water/method kit will wash away the parts I need to determine proper Afr. They say run the engine until 1/4 then turn off engine and keep it WOT and tow back to pits and read plugs. Most likely that's only possible for N/A. Doing that NUMEROUS times will take a hurt on my turbo, over time. How do u guys do it? I'll run 2 steps colder, V power on OEM replacement ngk wires and .028-.029" on plug gap.

So confused I think its best to go on dyno. Keep upping timing till power stops and also fix Afr to make up for ign changes then back down a few degrees. Find true total afr because the water/meth will change readings. And run TRUE total 11.2-11.5 afr.

Sorry for the lengthy essays I wrote

[98vtec]

http://forum.ectune.com/viewtopic.ph...r=asc&start=60

you need to think about what you are actually doing and what is happening to the spark plug. the end of the ground strap is the closest to the combustion event so therefore, through conduction, the strap gets hotter and hotter from that starting point. the hotter it gets, the closer the heat markings will be to the base of the plug.

[f22ax_Rocks]

OK cool will read article after my emissions certification test today. Just for kicks do u think the mitutoyo anvil/ spherical micrometer 0"-1" part# 115-253 is any good. And its made of carbide.? Says it measures up to .0001 and accuracy of +/-.00015. Going to use that for bearing measurements in future. I think there was a suggestion on a site to get steel instead of carbide lmk your thoughts. Or am I better off just getting a bore indicator. Measure main bore diameter and subtract from crank journal to get a close bearing thickness. Then find the correct bearing identification letters then use plastigauge. Seen lots of people not measuring bearing thickness and using plastigauge instead.

[f22ax_Rocks]

What's your thoughts of this dial bore indicator? Im don't really understand accuracy of .0008. Why doesn't it just say accuracy of +/- .0008 or are they both different meanings? And should I look for something with +/- .0001 accuracy for a bore gauge?

And what's graduation/ resolution. I looked it up but kept getting liquid graduation info. Did you guys want me to start a new thread on this info?

[dohcaccord97]

ok, there is a lot of info here and sadly a lot of guessing and estimating on the internet.. I ran a stock motor minus head studs at 18psi from a big 16g turbo for 8 years, car made 310whp and 289wtq.. every car and more importantly every setup/tune will be different.. do not run meth/water injection.. 1. it only allows more timing to be used 2. if you ever run out and dont realize it you WILL blow the motor 3. it is not cheap when really it may only add 10-14whp... bottom line.. stick around 300whp and you will be fine.

[93redcb7]

ok, there is a lot of info here and sadly a lot of guessing and estimating on the internet.. I ran a stock motor minus head studs at 18psi from a big 16g turbo for 8 years, car made 310whp and 289wtq.. every car and more importantly every setup/tune will be different.. do not run meth/water injection.. 1. it only allows more timing to be used 2. if you ever run out and dont realize it you WILL blow the motor 3. it is not cheap when really it may only add 10-14whp... bottom line.. stick around 300whp and you will be fine.

actually you should tune "without it" and add it as a precautionary thing because it adds octane, it will help with bumping a little lower octane tank of gas up or just in general is just better. it cools intake temps and raises octane.

[f22ax_Rocks]

Thx for the replies guys. Yes I'm aware that every tune will be different even if the turbo kit and internals where of the same manufacturer. I'm going to run the methanol kit just as a precaution. I'm not going to solely rely on it. Its just going to be used to kill lots of variables as stated in my above posts. But thx for the input guys. And 310whp stock block is pretty impressive. Guess well have to see if I get this going before winter hits