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Old 10-25-2017, 05:57 PM   #21
oni_cb7
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This is very funny to me...

Now that I am older, I am beginning to see trends and opinions repeat themselves. I can remember so many people saying this same thing back in the late 90's early 00's. Why switch to OBD2, OBD1 is so much better, they would ask. These new cars have too much tech, what happened to the good old cars of the early 90's late 80's.

Now, we are on to the next gen of people claiming about the same idea. Up until the last year of my life, I have spent my time driving cars that were older than 1991.

Just gave me a chuckle hearing this same old complaint again. History does in fact repeat itself.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:44 PM   #22
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The guy is right about pretty much all of that list. Its not about driving anymore, they try to sell the idea of driving excitement with a blonde woman in leather gloves but the feeling has never been experienced by the consumers anyway.

Its the same with cell phones, you'd guess by the advertisements that they are simply cameras, but I digress.

Some cars like the stuff from Mopar is sort of exciting but I cant get past all of the shit technology.

Its not the fact that its over analyzed and the damn car will go into limp mode if something silly isnt reading properly, its the fact that this is all tiny little surface mount components jam packed into modules, clusters and touch panels. You really think any of these cars will be running right in 20 years? With millions of tiny resistors, transistors, capacitors etc, that you cant service? You think they will be worth the tremendous cost to fix them if you wanted to have them repaired? What about trying to program the computers once you do get it repaired, you think you'll be able to find 2017 software for the car 20 years from now?

They are built to fail and be replaced and the best of them suffer the same fate unfortunately.

If the TCU in our CB7 fails we can repair it with a soldering iron at home while enjoying a sandwich... Not so with these new cars...

My day to day job is working in depth with new cars, stripping the interiors and installing leather upholstery. I see the innards of these cars and they arent built any better than our 25 year old Hondas. A lot of dead air between the fenders and bumpers and chassis... They are built to be totaled. We do light bar installations on new Tacomas for dealerships and after seeing them with the grille and bumper off I'm convinced you'd "total" it in a 10mph accident.

Its all plastic and cast aluminum made for insurance write ups. Plastic junk with 10 air bags and and an electric throttle.

Don't even get me started...

I love all eras of of cars going back to the antiques but the fun stopped around 2005. Too much tech kills it. How can you have any fun and sense of connection to the machine when your pedal input goes through a fuckin computer and 50 thousand sensors before reaching the throttle body?

When I blast on the highway in my straight piped old ass Honda, let the engine brake while taking an off ramp and smell that blow by from the valve cover breather I feel something that you just dont get anymore from these new cars.

They are sterile and disconnected and the ones that arent are unfortunately packed full of unserviceable and quickly obsolete tech.
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Old 10-25-2017, 10:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by gloryaccordy View Post
Also shit like the starter to ground cable getting all gummed up with corrosion- I had to change it on all 3 of my CBs. You don't see problems like that anymore, and old Hondas were considered bulletproof.
Of course you had to replace the electrical cables in all three of your 25 year old Accords, and you'd be silly to think that a 2017 Accord in the year 2042 wouldn't need its cables replaced.

Last edited by AhYesCB7; 10-25-2017 at 11:01 PM.
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Old 10-25-2017, 11:25 PM   #24
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...They are sterile and disconnected and the ones that arent are unfortunately packed full of unserviceable and quickly obsolete tech.
Surface mount components are cake to replace and switch out. If there is a market for that kind of thing, I'd surely start up a business of it. As a matter of fact, my 14 year old E46 has tons of computers, surface mount devices, etc. and it is just fine. I wouldn't worry about those things failing. I believe people are just afraid of them failing more than their actual failure rate.

The only time you'd need to reprogram the computer is if you somehow erased or replaced the flash memory. The dealership has tools to do that, it's usually through CAN, therefore it can be reproduced because CAN is not a secure communication type. China has been doing it for years for coding and diagnostic things.

Yes, these cars are built to crumple. That's a good thing. The car can be replaced. These new cars are definitely built better than the CB, structurally of course. They are faster, more rigid/stiffer, more features, quieter...but that doesn't make them better cars.

I also think that because people know that the car is DBW, they are automatically biased against it. I wish I could do a double blind study on that. The electronics make little difference in engine operation from the driver's point of view. The programming from the manufacturer is what kills it. Look at what a Hondata tune does to the 8th gen Civic Si for example.

Because your Honda is loud, smelly, has NVH, you enjoy it? I'm with you there, it's character. Like I said earlier, there is such thing as too refined.
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Old 10-26-2017, 03:36 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by sonikaccord View Post
There aren't any true steer-by-wire cars out yet, the wheel is still physically connected to the rack. I don't know why the EPS systems damp the feel so much since it's even more of a direct connection to the rack just with a motor motor attached to help turn the wheel. I would think that a fluid would have a better effect, but it is hydraulic fluid which doesn't compress...I'll have to do some more reading on that.

As far as electronic throttle bodies, it isn't their fault. It's the implementation of it. There is no reason why in 2017 we have any lag in throttle response unless it is intentionally put there, probably for emissions/comfort reasons. Technically they should have faster response...instead of the engine "reacting" to throttle input, it already knows how much the throttle plate is opening because the ECU is controlling that parameter. It should already have the fuel and ignition map ready to go.

I know what is going to piss you guys off...brake-by-wire, it's going to happen just wait a little longer.
The EPS requires a lot different tuning of the suspension than hydraulic to get the feel, but it is possible. Mazda has been doing it and Honda did it with the NSX. It is more that OEM's don't want "kickback" which basically means "feedback."

Brake by wire is already here. The NSX has it now.

And you are correct about the DBW. It is for emissions/warranty. The NSX has DBW on the NA2 and it also has no lag.
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Old 10-26-2017, 08:15 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by sonikaccord View Post

The only time you'd need to reprogram the computer is if you somehow erased or replaced the flash memory. The dealership has tools to do that, it's usually through CAN, therefore it can be reproduced because CAN is not a secure communication type. China has been doing it for years for coding and diagnostic things.
When we do leather on most Nissans and other odd cars like Acuras and some US cars you have to be sure not to switch the key to the on position without the seats installed and plugged in. If you do the air bag system goes apeshit and we have to have our air bag techs come and flash the ECU with their ultra expensive software. If you take the same identical seats from one Subaru and put them into another one just like it the air bag system goes crazy because the serial numbers dont match and the ECU sees that.

I don't even want to imagine how much money my employer has spent to keep up with just the air bag systems in these cars.
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Old 10-26-2017, 11:43 PM   #27
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The technology makes it easier to work on.. provided the right tools. The vehicle tells you most everything now, and you can test just about everything through a scan tool.

On the electric brakes thing - Volkswagen has electronic parking brakes on the Audi A class since 2008? I did a rear brake job for my co worker with an A5, and all I had to do was press a ďbuttonĒ(touch screen) and the caliper retracted. No need to crank the piston back. Iíd say thatís easier! I say bring on the tech! Just put it into the engine & suspension, not the damn touch screen or unnaturally bright headlights.. Iím afraid technicians will become parts changers with no concept of how things really work.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:06 AM   #28
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The technology makes it easier to work on.. provided the right tools. The vehicle tells you most everything now, and you can test just about everything through a scan tool.

On the electric brakes thing - Volkswagen has electronic parking brakes on the Audi A class since 2008? I did a rear brake job for my co worker with an A5, and all I had to do was press a ďbuttonĒ(touch screen) and the caliper retracted. No need to crank the piston back. Iíd say thatís easier! I say bring on the tech! Just put it into the engine & suspension, not the damn touch screen or unnaturally bright headlights.. Iím afraid technicians will become parts changers with no concept of how things really work.
"provided the right tools" is the thing, most people cannot afford the equipment to diagnose simple problems with these computers on wheels. There is super convenience from some of this stuff but it forces the end user back into the shop instead of being able to DIY it. Even our cars can be diagnosed with only what the car itself provides. There is a reason why (late model) VAG cars tend to get a lot of flak for being electrical nightmares, if you have circuitry running everything then anything is bound to fail when a fuse goes out.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:47 AM   #29
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What problems require a tool to diagnose that can't be diagnosed by normal means? A computer isn't going to tell you that your lug nuts are loose (yet). People can still DIY for the most part. Sensors are still sensors. Well...there is that whole programming the battery replacement thing that BMW is doing now, but besides things like that there is not much that needs a special electronic tool to be fixed.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by AhYesCB7 View Post
Of course you had to replace the electrical cables in all three of your 25 year old Accords, and you'd be silly to think that a 2017 Accord in the year 2042 wouldn't need its cables replaced.
I haven't owned a CB7 in nearly a decade. Those issues popped up with they were about 10-12 years old. You don't see those kinds of problems in 10-12 year old Hondas today.
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:59 AM   #31
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When we do leather on most Nissans and other odd cars like Acuras and some US cars you have to be sure not to switch the key to the on position without the seats installed and plugged in. If you do the air bag system goes apeshit and we have to have our air bag techs come and flash the ECU with their ultra expensive software. If you take the same identical seats from one Subaru and put them into another one just like it the air bag system goes crazy because the serial numbers dont match and the ECU sees that.

I don't even want to imagine how much money my employer has spent to keep up with just the air bag systems in these cars.
You are right; we should prioritize a service tech's time over people's safety lmao.

Service techs hate cars by default; they hated them "back when cars were great" and even before that.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:52 PM   #32
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There's a new generation of techs out now too. It's a weird era right now as we have people experienced in their field but a new generation of is here now. They are just old enough to have no experience in older technology (modem or a carburetor yet that is when technology first kind of started. If you are in your 30's + you've lived the creation of the OBD1, OBD2, and every other gizmo. If you're 20 you've only read about some things.

When you think about it too OBD1 requires you to know more about electronics too. Trace down a fault, etc.

That and we all know that car manufactures make around 60% of their profit from maintenance visits. ^ dont' quote me on that. And at the same time, there are A LOT of people out there that do not want to service their own vehicle. So it is a win / win situation too.
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:55 PM   #33
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You are right; we should prioritize a service tech's time over people's safety lmao.

Service techs hate cars by default; they hated them "back when cars were great" and even before that.
"Back when they were great" it was expected of you, as the owner and operator after all, to know how to perform maintenance and repair your own horseless carriage.

Please explain to me how taking the drivers seat out of a blue 2017 Forester and swapping it out with the same exact seat from a red 2017 Forester is a safety issue and should result in wasted time and money?

If the seat is put in and I don't tighten the bolts the car wouldn't have a care in the world so "safety" isn't the issue.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:54 AM   #34
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I'm thinking that's more of an anti-theft or tamper-proofing feature more than a safety issue. If it is a safety issue, the only legitimate reason that I can think of to do that is to make sure that you get charged $$$ for having the SRS system "professionally" inspected and reset.
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Old 10-28-2017, 02:00 AM   #35
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Any new technician coming through trades school would be best suited to get an apprenticeship at a small local garage. Any tech who goes straight to a dealership is really learning nothing. All they are learning is how to hook up a computer and replace a part. If that doesn't work go on to the next part. Kind of like those who work at call centers. Once you get to the end of the flow chart it's all ah duh ah duh.

A real mechanic will follow a troubleshooting chart. However, it doesn't end at the OBD computer. It goes into testing resistance and wiring. With the newer models, there is no diagnostic work any more. It is basically replace a part. There are a few techs that still have the passion for cars. Those few will actually do real trouble shooting that involves more than just plugging in an OBD scanner. These are the type of tradespeople that we will be relying on! The numbers are dropping! Not everyone drives a brand new car.
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Old 10-28-2017, 12:43 PM   #36
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^^
Which is why Iím worried techs are going to evolve into parts changers.
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Old 10-28-2017, 04:09 PM   #37
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Yep. And when I go to Acura appointments these days OMG some of the techs look young. Yes I'm getting old, but I can see how they are coming from school to dealership, compared to the past.

I had a slow creek sound in the rear when coming to a stop. I asked Acura to take a look. First time, couldn't replicate. Second time, told me it was the upper control arm bushings, I said ok. Replaced them. Next day, sound still there. Finally I jacked it up one determined day to figure out the sound. Turns out th whole caliper was seized it wouldn't even come off easily, nor any piston retraction.

Lately they also used wayyyy too much anti seize between the piston and pad and it oozed out on hot days. New to me, but for weeks I had this every 2nd day. More on one side. I spoke with the service tech/appointment guy who I do know and jokingly asked if he had some newbie's back there. He rolled his eyes and smiled.



But the opposite applies too. I took my cb7 to Acura for an alignment (spc camber kit on front), and an old guy messed it up so bad! It came back worse and they charged me $200. I complained to the service manager and they took it back and did it proper. The reasoning for worse is that the older tech was not familiar with the newer technology/lift system / spc camber kit in the front.
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Old 10-29-2017, 11:28 PM   #38
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^^
Which is why Iím worried techs are going to evolve into parts changers.
i get techs that take off cylinder heads and bring them to me so i can adjust the valves. smh
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